https://photos.app.goo.gl/bSOY8bXIxJ5ZEbhx1
https://photos.app.goo.gl/VN33TlajL2Cu310C3

this stuff is rooted pretty tight. you have to give it a good tug to free it from the bottom. cutrine liquid and granule don't seem to be working, neither is diquat. i have some chara in the pond, which i id'ed due to its smell. this stuff is different.

Sure looks like chara. But, if it isn't 'crunchy' to the feel, and have a musty/skunk odor, then it isn't.
From the photos, it could be spikerush, although that plant grows in acidic waters. If it is spikerush, it's covered in mud.
My guess is chara...

there is another plant in the pond that has a strong garlic odor. i thought that was chara. and yes the photo of the plant in the water is covered in a dirty layer of mud or silt.

Scott69, the pictures you put up don't look like chara to me, look at the image from TAMU Aquaplant: https://aquaplant.tamu.edu/plant-identification/alphabetical-index/muskgrass/

I don't see any whorled branching on the images you pictured.

thanks for that link. there a a few that kind of look the same to me.but it seems that diquat and copper should get rid of all of them. i sprayed today. hopefully it will not get out of hand.