Fine Bubble Air Diffuser

What is the opinion of this guy. I am going to buy two and pump them with a thomas 2660 5.1 CFM average depth 6' and 50' of hose.

Thomas 2660CE54 rebuilt

Sanitaire 9'' Membrane only $12

Anyone have any opinions of these membranes. ?????

The slits look too big to produce maximum water flow circulation compared to membranes with 1 mm slits. They would work okay especially you are not using multiple diffusers which require more cfm to operate all of them at optimum flow rates.

Krystofer, I would like to know how the system works if you go that route. I too have looked at the same compressor, line, and such. Thought about going with vertex for just the diffuser part, but like Mr. Cody said, they would work okay. I guess something is better than nothing, and right now I have nothing.

Well at 12$ i bought 3. I will hook them all up and check out the results when i ever commit to a pump. Hopefully video will be attached.

One has to be aware that larger bubbles make a more visible vigorous boil but does not actually move more water in gallons per minute nor does it dissolve more oxygen into the water. Rule for bottom air lift aeration, the smaller the bubbles the more water you move.

Mr. Cody, could a 2660 push two 9" vertex diffusers?? I have been watching, reading, learning, and hoping to have a list ready for Christmas...may be the only way I'll get my aeration! lol I will be building and setting everything up myself except for the diffusers, weighted hose, and the pump.

The $12 membrane looks die cut for the slits with a lot of wasted space for many more slits. As Bill Cody said, they look big, and big bubbles don't help much.

$36 for 3 diffusers is not at all a good deal when burning $25/month in electricity to move 75% less water....quality, effective diffusers will pay off better in the long run and even short term.

That sounds like why they are so cheap. I am going to do some out of pond water tests first and maybe post some pictures or if i can figure out how to post video we can see the performance. I am gonna pull the trigger on a Gast 82R45 today with a powder coated cabinet and cooling fans already installed for 200$. I hope to see everything hooked up next week. I assume since that membrane has larger holes my pump will probably be too small but we will see. I am at an average depth of 5' and i plan to hook up two diffusers right next to each other at my deepest point of 8'-10'. i was thinking of putting the third on the opposite side of the small island i have but i will have to do some testing to find out how it all looks. My pond is pretty small and it should be enough water turn over, but i guess if could get smaller bubbles i might run my pump less. I found some 12'' diffusers for 34$ i wonder what there hole size is?

[img:left][URL=http://s1184.photobucket.com/user/krystofer66/media/House%20View.jpg.html][/img] obucket.com/user/krystofer66/media/Pond%20Picture_1.jpg.html][/URL][/img] [img:left][/img]

I am probably going to run 1/2'' hose up to the island and from the island i will run weighted 3/8'' hose towards my floating dock. The depth is between 8-10 feet right in the middle on that side. On the other side i will put one diffuser its only about 5 feet.

Peachg - the 2660 will easily operate two to three 9" membrane diffusers.

Thanks Mr. Cody. I will be getting a list together for my wife. lol. I have some other questions but will pull them up on my own thread...do not want to highjack this one more than I already have.

Well I now know why they were only 12$.... Membrane only no housing. So i got creative and cut a top of an Ozarka bottle and gorilla glued in the membrane and some fittings on the nozzle to allow my PVC fittings to attach. Someone mentioned the holes were too big and after my testing i disagree. Upflow of water is intense and has about a 5'' dome of water protruding from the water level. Over all i have a Thomas 2660 110V that is already mounted in a powder coated metal box with vents cut, fans wired up, and filters inlet/outlet(removed the outlets for better flow.) I still think i need to purchase more hose that is weighted but it came with 20' of goodyear hose that i am currently using. All in all i am in this for $235 dollars. I think it is a pretty good deal. Next I am going to upgrade the underwater system with a second membrane and weighted hose. I attached a Stainless weight to the bottom and the membrane ends up floating about a foot off the pond floor. Right out of the muck.

I also attached a decoy mallard to the top of the membrane so i can pull out the membrane for maintenance.


Don't laugh at the glue job.


Pool is 6' Deep

Thanks Peach. I will be buying more as i can afford.

Your welcome but Mr. Cody needs to get the thanks for that. He answered my question.

Looks like its doing a good job!

Also, if you are going to throw that plate into the pond....let me bring you something to exchange...I'd love to have that plate, don't have anything for it at the moment...but I will! lol

It is not necessarily the slits are too big. It is smaller slits produce smaller bubbles. It is just the smaller slits are better in that they produce smaller bubbles that move more water compared to longer or larger slits or openings. Both can work, but one is more efficient. As an example, remove the diffuser and have the air escape from the hose undiffused that produces really large bubbles. This way produces lots of noticeable surface action, but it is even less efficient at moving water than that of a larger slit diffuser.

The upwelling of water around 5" above the surface is a feature of using or having larger bubbles and and also a feature of placing the diffuser in shallower water. The surface action of larger bubbles will produce more noticable surface disturbance but not necessarily move more water. Finer bubbles do not cause more visible surface action than the larger bubbles. The larger slit diffuser will work okay, just not as efficiently as a finer bubble diffuser.

A way to test the amount of or speed of water moving away from the diffuser is to measure how fast an orange or similar mostly submerged object will move away from the boil. An object completely or fully floating on the surface does not really accurately reflect the current movement below the surface. This is a simple method used to measure stream flow.

Gluing or affixing the perimeter of the diffuser to a adjacent surface will make it more diffucult to disassemble the diffuser or change the membrane.

Yeah i understand the process of all your statements. I understood them before in previous posts. It was $12 and works great in my opinion. I have it in about 8' in my pond and it churns the water and creates a clearing in the pond of about 20' in diameter as the duck weed is not in that area. As for the maintenance of the membrane... If I cant clean the membrane i can just build a new set up for 15$ including the membrane. I guess the pictures of the membrane itself are misleading as well. The bubbles coming out under water are super fine. Thats why i dropped it in the pool to check the bubble size. They seem to be as small or smaller that what a fish tank air stone would produce. I dont have a 70 dollar vertex to compare and now that i have this i wll never. Dang where are all the ...'' thats a great set up for a cheap price'' ... quotes out.

I have several of them they are 304 stainless lifting lugs.

Oh yeah and i looked this guy up on the internet and it is made by Santaire and designed for city waste water treatment plants.

It's a ________ (fill in the blank) setup for a cheap price. With that said, the way we start to calculate on how to design an aeration system for a pond is how many gallons of water each diffuser membrane moves to the surface per minute.

Now if you can figure that out you can compare that to the Vertex diffusers.

Us pond professionals that are paid to figure out aeration systems for peoples ponds can't do what you are doing. If we design and sell something and it doesn't work or the customer has a fish kill, who foots the bill? The customer that didn't want to spend the money for a system with R&D/Testing behind it or the company that built the system? If we did something like you did, and the glue comes apart, it costs us to go back and fix it, or do we tell the customer that they have to fix it? The DIY guys don't figure in labor and miles traveled to do the work, they are doing it in their spare time.

I'd be curious to see what the diffuser cost you if you take your hourly rate (what you get paid for working) and multiply that by the time you have building the diffuser and connections, plus the time you spent looking up where and what to buy to build it. Then add in the actual materials. Even the water bottle top. Now, what did that diffuser cost?

I love your DIY project Kry. Often times I find myself enjoying the challenge and learning that goes into the DIY stuff even though there is a lot of time involved and sometimes I have to settle for less than optimal results (and some total failures). It looks like you are on your way to good results, enjoy it to the fullest and you can't put a price on pride.

Krystofer,

You have missed the point. I am a DIYer and have been from the start. I love doing these projects as well. The diffuser Vertex sells is an engineered device. I use them in my setups. I built my own weighted bases, but I used the better heads from Vertex. Do the math. How much water are you moving? How much water movement are you loosing do to your design? Do you understand fluid dynamics? Do you understand the losses because of the interference you designed in? Just because yours is cheep, does not mean it is better or worse. I have tested several diffusers and setups. I do understand fluid dynamics and the interference patterns. While yours does move water, what is the gallons per minute yours moves? How fast does you setup completely circulate your pool or pond? I know to the minute how well my setups work. I know the electricity cost to operate my system and I know the gallons per KWH used. Do you?

My total cost is my real value. Yes DIY can be cheeper, but it also can be way more expensive in the long run. And like Scott said, when yours brakes, who are you going to call?

Do you know how much O2 your setup is adding to you water?

Finally, if you are looking for praise about your design, make it stand out for something you do better and have proof. Anyone can glue stuff together, the data does not lie and neither does the math. Do your math.

I DIY because I want to, not to impress anyone else. I share my successes and failures so others can learn.

As stated 15$ total cost. Sure are a bunch of fluid dynamic engineers on here. I built a glue together diffuser. It works. Its cheap. I can build them in 20 min with a time of 3 hours for glue to set. This was to save money period. I am sure with a few formulas and minutes i could figure all these numbers out to give exacts and find out the cost ratios for running pumps and water turn over rates ect... but in the long run i dont care about that. I turn the pump on at night and off in the morning. Been running for a week just fine. If i have problems i will solve it then. This was not to be an engineering thread just a hey guys and gals this might be a cheap solution for those not willing to bit e the bullet on a commercialized aeration system. I am happy and that is really all that matters. The rest of you can carry on in your negativity and for those that said good job thank you. Hope i gave some Macgyver Ideas to some of you. Have a good day all and Happy Ponding!!!

https://www.xylem.com/siteassets/brand-s...-aeration12.pdf


Here is the link to the membranes i used. with the specs. I am not into figuring out all that information on flow rates but maybe one of the geniuses here can help me out let all us DIY cheapo guys know how they compare to something they use.

Disc material Specially blended highgrade
EPDM
Diameter 178 or 229 mm
(7 or 9 in)
Airflow range per disc 0.8–7 Nm³/h
(0.5–4.5 scfm)
Standard oxygen transfer
efficiency (SOTE)
Approx. 6.5% per m
submergence (2% per ft)
Standard aeration
efficiency (SAE)
2.5–6 kg O2 /kWh
(4–10 lb O2 /hph)

This is obviously way over my head as i am a pipefitter by trade not sanitation specialist or aerator engineer. But after this post if closed i am sure i will be highly educated in the matter.

Actually, there ARE a bunch of engineers on here....

I get what you're saying Krystofer, and yes it can be a little frustrating here at times. Many here take ponds and fish really, REALLY, seriously. They are trying to help, I promise. You have to remember that an engineer isn't satisfied with the operation of the thing until he or she maths it almost to death. it's just in their nature.

But what they're telling you is true....Lots of fine bubbles is what you're looking for in a diffuser for a pond setting. That doesn't mean that what you have isn't perfectly good enough for your particular needs....doesn't mean that at all.

But some of these guys make their living selling and installing this stuff, and when you're doing it for someone else all the time it better be right. And after awhile of doing this, you begin approaching every project with this mindset. It can be easy to forget that sometimes, good enough is exactly that....good enough.

Even if the math doesn't look like what we think it should.

Exactly. ^^^^ This guy gets it. I totally understand that mindset. I am a Gen Supt for a major mechanical company that employs around 10 PE's. I definitely understand the engineer ways in our work force. I am glad they have the same kind of people in the pond world too. I just wanted to say that this membrane was a designed pond/wastewater treatment membrane.

Ahhh yes the old DIY air system... Can't say much my first one was a bit sketchy as well... lol

And I got a lot of slack over it Specially my pump... a Eco 7 plus. A lot of folks out here used my system tho. And I can't tell you how many PM's I got on it asking for help. Remember them days guys..haha no one could believe I was pumping 8 foot with this pump but I was I got video for proof... and then some pumps same model would not pump past 6 feet so I got lucky with mine. At that time I used 9 inch fine bubble diffusers from what was then called diffuser express. They worked great for me and my setup at the time. I used this setup for almost 4 years, but and there is always a but, my ponds biomass at that time was pretty light then.

Fast Forward to now. I have since swapped out my pump with a Gast 0523 1/3hp pump. (Much better and stronger pump) and I have also replaced my diffusers with Vertex fusers. Much better diffuser! How do I know this well 2 reasons.

1. From everyone out here showing me the math and movement of the Vertex diffusers. From experts out here that do this for a living and absolutely know what there talking about.

2. And this one on my own. I could tell just by being in my boat next to the water boil my boat moves away much faster now. The boil isn't that big but dang the water movement is crazy!!

Does that mean my fist setup sucked and wasn't any good? No Sir... It was what I could afford and it worked for 3.5 years. I just had the extra money to upgrade so I did as I could. Now I just have a little more peace of mind that I have the right stuff in place. At first this did not matter to much to me but as I grew and managed my pond and my fish started to get larger and larger and better quality and quantity you start to realize all the work you put into your fish you will start to think about your air setup more and more and how to improve it cause the last thing I want is a fish kill cause I got a 15 dollar diffuser instead of a 35 dollar diffuser. Just using that as an example... It will start to weigh on ya....

RC

RC

I have read your DIY post. It was a good push in the direction of I can do it myself. Thanks for that. I have similar reactions to my floating dock with water movement but i am not sure if my water boil is average or bigger than vertex. Maybe i can Youtube some and compare.

So i watched an underwater vertex membrane video and i do have to say i dont think there was much difference in air streams. I was not upclose to the vertex like i was on mine in the pool, but they looked very similar. I think sure the vertex might produce a smaller bubble but i wont be able to tell that with my experience or vision. I did watch the four disc vertex in a pond video and it seems to move move water outward but i assume that is because it is a four disc. I think adding one more in my deep end should be all that i need. My pond is pretty small.

Man for 40 bucks get a Vertex diffuser and test them side by side. Make your own Youtube videos comparing them. Have fun with it and add to the PB knowledge base! I know I would be very interested in the results!

I think i will if i get some money together. Sounds like a plan.

I agree!!!!!!!

Krystofer,

You misunderstand. I am saying you data is missing. Further, just by looking at your design, I bet you have introduced a lot of destructive interference which will increase your costs or reduce your efficiency. Both are not good for your bottom line. We were trying to point that out to you to help you improve your design. If you want to toss insults, thats fine, but don't expect a lot of help from those who have been there and done that. This is unique group of pond enthusiasts with thousands of years of experience. Someone here has done it before and can save you money in the long run if you are willing to listen.

If you don't want to hear any negative feedback, that is okay. I learn from others. I want people to show me how I can improve my setup. Without feedback, we would still be using sails and oars.

About the $40 for a diffuser, one fish kill will cost you far more.

Best of luck with your ponds.

Have we asked him what his goals for the pond are?? Does he have any fish?

That's no joke! This is what I did not understand at first until the management part of my pond kicked in. Raising these fish like "some" of us do is kind of like how folks raise deer. Not on that same scale money wise I suppose but each nice sized fish or deer took a lot of time and money to get to a certain size / quality. Here is the best advise I could give you.

"Use what you have to for now for your air setup I totally get the "I cant afford thing" I was there, but do your best to listen to what being said out here so one day when you can afford it you will know what you need to do to upgrade your system to the best it can be"

I still consider my system a DIY but just with better parts now!!

RC

I am totally onboard with the corrective criticism tone of thought, it just seemed like the criticism i was receiving was not of that tone. More like hey your idea is never going to work this is the system i sell and you have to use it for your pond to work. I totally get that people do this for a living and might have a superior system. I at no means need a top of the line system. My pond has some crappie (not stocked must have been dropped in by bird feathers) LMB, CC, and some pan fish. I bought this house and fish were already in there. I am not looking at raising the best fishing hole in the world. I just knew my water quality sucked due to the excessive amount of duck weed taking over. I am not going to put any more chemicals and now that i have aeration i should keep the fish from starving out of oxygen until next spring when i can keep the duck weed help back. If i plan on upgrading my system i will definitely look at a vertex diffuser just for comparison only. I think the pool is a great way to see how the two work. And i am sure some people would like to make their own set up rather than buy.

Curiousity. I am glad you have some criticism but what specifically do you think adds to the destructive interference. Maybe i can improve on that or decide if your statement holds water... no pun intended.