OK, while I figure out what stuff to finally purchase I am wondering what and how to enclose my system in at the edge of my pond.

I plan on simply running power down to my pond edge since I have a 150 amp panel approx 50 feet from my pond already.

I will need to build a cover or way to keep my pump ect dry and safe. Im curious on what other have used or built?

DAVE

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=408457#Post408457 Pump house


http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=375059#Post375059 My home made aeration system

Hope this helps.

Here's what I did. I wanted a little storage space as well so it is bigger than need be. It's built elevated for ease of maintenance, to keep the pump up out of water (standing water can occur in this area of my property) and to keep critters from burrowing underneath to make homes. To insure good ventilation, the floor is constructed with spaces between each board and the side walls only go up as far as required to get under the eaves. BTW, you can buy small pump enclosures with ventilation fans built in. You can see an enclosure like that in my pics actually sitting inside the pump house.

Bill, very nice work. I was thinking something similar due to potential snow depth up here.

Thanks for the kind words. FWIW, using a couple of landscape timbers and 4 lag bolts, I added a rack for a canoe last fall. This summer I will add a small section of floor across the covered portion of the landscape timbers for some additional storage. Also added a set of flood lights at the peak (wish they were higher). Sorry the picture is a little crooked (blame it on my bride the photographer. )

Here's my DIY compressor cabinet I built back in May, 2012 and still holding up fine. If you'd like more details let me know.

I used 1/4" ply and 1x's and used a dryer vent on the back and screened the opening to keep the small critters out.

How about a BOM (Bill of Materials) and a write up on how you built it? Or a link to it if it's on here somewhere?

Is there a screen over the fan on the bottom?

Looks good!!!

Have you ever had snow get high enough to cause air flow problems thru the cabinet in the winter?

+1 I like it!

I like the manifold, but wouldn't hang it that way. Fix mount the manifold and run hose from the compressor to the manifold.

One thing you guy's should consider is from your branch circuit protection (main circuit breaker in your breaker box), is to toss in device protection at it's level. Rather than feeding 15 amps into something that will only eat 3 amps on a good day, fatten up his maximum meals he can eat 125% with an appropriate Fuse or Circuit Breaker. Yep, overeating amps has a tendency to cause that burned electrical smell.

Just have a boring Grey box here for the outdoor rig.

I like that idea. Just to be clear though, you are saying set a secondary protection at the device level of 125% of the device startup current, correct?

Nope!

You lost me then. My Gast pump specs says it runs at 3.8 amps with startup of 5.3 amps. What would you suggest setting the secondary protection at?

125% of the FLA (Full Load Amps) on the motor nameplate. This is not your starting current.

Thanks. I am back with you again. So how do you keep from a nuisance trip during start? Some kind of time delayed fuse or is there a better protection device?

Yes, the fuses for motors are time delay.

I use circuit breakers where possible, just because if they trip you can reset them rather than replace a blown fuse, and also you can use them easily to start and stop a motor. Needs to be a UL-489 rated device and I select the trip curve based on % inrush current, but usually for AC motors it would be a "D" curve.

Ok, Im lost on what you guys are talking about. I will be running basically the same pump a GAST OR THOMAS that uses the same AMPS from a plugged in extension cord that will go to a 20 AMP circut breaker in a panel I have down by my pond. It will be the only item on this 20 AMP breaker. This is what is currently installed.

what kind of electrical breaker or device should I be using to help this motor? Is this something in my breaker panel or something on the other end of my extension cord in the small home i build for my pump?

eventually I will put an underground line but the area in questions will be ripped up for a home build so no underground lines at this time.



Dave

Thanks guys!

Are you sure you want all this???

As far as a BOM, I don' know the exact dimensions of the box off hand, but the pump, manifold and fan came from the late Ted Lea. Once I received those I started on the cabinet, making it just big enough to house everything.

I'm not a craftsman by any means, more of a challenge-seeker so there's a lot of WAG's involved in most of what I do and/or build. No written plans, just an idea and "go from there".

I believe I used 3/8" ply but may have been 1/2", and I didn't use treated ply as I knew I would be sealing and painting it, and used 1x2's as inside perimeter supports and also for the hinged lid.

I'm also guessing I didn't go through a full 4x8 sheet of ply and maybe 20' of 1x2. Other than that the materials consisted of:
Screws
Wood putty
Paint
Dryer vent
PVC that I buried the electrical in
2-240v outlets and gang boxes

I have a screen over the dryer vent intake but not on the underside of the fan as it usually runs 24/7. Although I'm not running it this winter so I covered it on the inside.

I've not had snow high enough to cause air-flow problems but if I had to do it again, or if I knew I'd be there long enough, I would raise the cabinet due to the dust on windy days likely being drawn in, due to close proximity of the ground.

As far as the manifold, it's very light-weight aluminum so it's not like there's a lot stress involved coming from the airline to the motor. And from outside the cabinet I connected heater hose from the weighted tubing before it enters the cabinet and connects to the manifold. I also cut oversize holes in the bottom of the cabinet and inserted small pieces of larger heater hose as an insulator due to any vibration and not wanting the airline heater hose rubbing directly against the wood. This also relieves any tension from where the airline attaches to the manifold as it's a very tight fit coming through the bottom of the cabinet.

My system is 240v and since building the fish house, I ran the Tri-Plex from the power pole directly to a 100A distribution panel in the fish house. The panel has breakers for the 240v compressor pump and lights and outlets for the fish house. And there's another panel for the well pump.



Here's the pics of the cabinet when I built it:











As I'm sure that's more information than any of you really wanted, if you have any more questions, just let me know,,,,, but beware as you know I can get wordy

PS - So much credit on building this cabinet goes to the late great Ted Lea. it was with his guidance that the air flow from the fan and vent passes over the motor, using heater hose to enter the cabinet, and to "insulate" it to prevent rubbing.

Keith,

There's a picture of an enclosure that looks a lot like yours in the Nov/Dec issue of PBM. It's in the aeration article by Bob L.

Thanks, Bill! I'll have to check that out (as soon as I renew my subscription )

WHAT? Renewing it won't help with that, you'll also have to order back issues!

Yeah, I know, I know!

Need to know the EXACT motor name plate rating, then you could install a Class CC Fuse (be the least expensive) or an appropriate Circuit Breaker local to the motor installation.

I've never seen anyone here do device level protection on a homemade rig tho, they just buy a new motor when they smoke.

If LL had an appropriate circuit breaker on the compressor he posted in this thread, when it had a mechanical failure, most likely would have saved the motor. Compressor rebuild was in vain because the motor took a fatal hit.

Well, my motor says it's thermally protected, and that's fine for it's purpose when the motor get's too hot, but that won't stop the amps from killing it way before that thermal switch even wakes up.

In my gig, I have to do device/people level protection on everything I do, so maybe this is too much here as I am not in control of the outcome.

If you eat a handful of Olives, and prove it, you got your renewal

hahaha, that's hilarious Phil!

I couldn't even put one of those down, but I'm not one to pass up on a challenge!

I have small hands so you may just see a video posted here soon!

Oh, I think you could hold quite a few in your hand.

Remember now, that for proper digestion, every bite the size of your thumbnail must be chewed at least 30 times before swallowing

I could send you some more

I'll get the same ones you sent me, garlic stuffed, and I'll send you some jerky in return, for your offer to do this.

But the 30 chews is pushing it!

Question is, will you be able to stomach the video?

Maybe we could cut it down to a solid 10 chews, but they would need to be substantial, like you are really into it. Obviously, has to go down the tube.

Listen guy's and gals, Keith really don't like Olives - at all!!

Had a thought for a mini fund raiser based on olives consumed, but that would just be too cruel.

I'm game!

First off I want to apologize to RUMBLON for getting off-topic!

Regarding the olives, you won't see me "really into it", I'll be lucky just to choke them down without up-chucking on camera.

A fun challenge between you and I, Phil since initially you had me eating these while on Lake Michigan, which in that regard I think we're all lucky that didn't happen! So we'll leave it at that.

BTW, I figured if I got the jumbo olives only a few would fit in my very, very small hands

Both my rotary vane compressors and my smaller piston driven compressors for winter use go into 2' X 2' X 2' plywood boxes with a vent installed opposite of each other for air flow.

Here is one:


Here is showing one of the smaller piston compressors I use for shallow winter aeration. The manifold system for the rotary compressor was left inside to be reconnected to the rotary compression in early summer.



This one shows the rotary vane just before removal for the winter. Must have got some snow inside somehow.




I've since made sure they were mouse proof as I had a mouse chew into the power cord connection of a pump last year which crossed some wires and cause an arc which ruined the compressor.

Hey Cecil, I believe I saw that cabinet! Although, I think that's a new lid?

It doesn't appear you have a fan(?), if not do you feel you get enough ventilation to keep the motor cool? (yet I also don't recall how long and/or how often you run it).

Probably saw it. I had two of them then and have three of them now. Lids are the same.



Never had a fan and don't seem to have issues without one. I run mine 24/7 in the summer.

You don't need an accessory fan when the shelter is well ventilated so cooler air can come in near the floor and heat can escape near the roof or upper part of the cabinet - natural air flow & ventilation. It is in the more airtight, sound deadening cabinets were accessory fan become very important to cool the heat producing compressor. I've seen some cabinets get hot enough to melt the compressor's cord coating and compressor 'died'.

Here is my setup. It's worked great and was not very expensive at all. Keep in mind though I am in Arkansas and we don't really have any real harsh winters. It's worked great for me though. I now have a different pump in the house but still works just as good!

RC

Now this is fancy!

JKB, I prefer to do what ever is necessary to protect my investment, especially since I can install what ever breaker I need in my panel. Ok I had no idea what a "class cc" fuse is, but it appears it would not apply to my situation as all my stuff is modern and I will be running an extension cord to start from a 150 AMP panel.

So if Im correct in understanding then when I buy my pump and it arrives, I cant get the info needed from the motor plate and then use the appropriate breaker so that I wont destroy my pump? Meaning instead of using a basic 20 AMP breaker I would use the correct one for my pump. So if I take my motor to an electrical supply place who specializes in this, can they sell me the correct breaker?

Dave

Dave,
When you get your compressor, take a pic of the motor name plate and PM it to me, or post it here and I'll tell you what to get.

It would be best to install this device local to the motor installation, secondary to the branch circuit protection from your main breaker box.

There are much higher standards for industrial control systems than for residential systems. You should see how some of the Control FREAKS rig up their houses and property.

Or their elevators....

Yep! I can imagine. Some of these guys really get into it.

If it was melting the wiring, they screwed up really bad in wiring in it the first place!

At least, get a Licensed Electrician with a VALID LICENSE to hook it up.

Sheesh!!!

Overheated pump was not my doing but one of 'those' fish farm aeration sellers. Melting was not in the motor wiring but clear back on the plug-in cord. Pump was not really in a cabinet but under one of those fake rocks with no ventilation. Sheesh is correct.

Never said it was your doing.

You wouldn't be one of those guys would you?

Only thing I did with my setup as it gets pretty dang hot here in Arkansas in summer time. I have plenty of vents and no fans, but in the pics above you don't see it, I went ahead and bought a 2 foot heater hose that you would use on your car and put that on first then I reattached the plastic you see in the pic to give myself a little more distance to the ponds edge. I had a lot of heat coming off the end of that pump and the heater hose worked great to absorb some of that heat! Just fyi for anyone that may need the info.

RC

JKB, I too am interested in doing what I can to protect my pump.

Here's a shot of the tags on my Gast 75R. And sorry, but I have no idea what the draw is on the cooling fan (also 240v), but I'm guessing it's minimal.

Keith,
That's pretty much the same motor I have on my 75R.

This is the CB I got for it: 4A CB

Keep in mind that my stuff will be mounted in a NEMA 4/12 electrical enclosure, including the compressor.

For your cooling fan, I just use AGC style fuses on those. Those are the 1/4 x 1-1/4 glass fuses. Usually, those fans are too small to use a CB with, and the glass fuses are cheap.

I'll dig out back because I have a bunch of fuse holders here I won't be using: Buss Class J You can use Class J fuses with motors.

Thanks, Phil and I'll apologize now for sounding completely ignorant on this.

With my panel in the fish house being Square D/Homeline, I would be replacing the current breaker (30A I believe) with a 4A breaker similar to what you're referencing (Eaton)? And remember the pump and fan are 240v.

And the AGC style glass fuse would be "inline" so to speak to the fan? In other words I'm sending 4A from my panel, to the outlets in the compressor cabinet (one for the compressor, the other for the fan), then the plug/wire which goes to the fan would be intercepted by the Buss Class J you're referring to?

Or could I just wire an inline fuse [holder], similar to what's used in automotive applications at/near the fan?

Again, please forgive my ignorance as the most basic explanation can still be over my head with some of this stuff!

Apology accepted.

I would just leave your main CB in the panel alone and don't fuss with it.

Device protection will be local in your compressor cabinet, secondary to the main power feed to the outlets.

That make any sense?

PUMP AERATION QUESTION

OK, JKB, I just got this, opened the box and snapped these pics. Im not sure which label you need but here are both and hopefully the damaged tag isnt missing what you need!

Im also very curious as the seller's ad says ready to plug in and it came with zero instructions. Now, I NEVER pretend to be what Im not and I can wire most circuits in a home but dont know what Im doing here.

Here are the tag pics and some pics of the pump. The pump is a Thomas.

I have more questions as well. The pump came with this plug which is not hooked up. 110 VOLT .The plug has typical wires in BLACK/ WHITE AND GREEN, the ground. However the pump has two wires, BLUE and BROWN and I dont see a place to ground it? So what colors of my plug do the BLUE and BROWN wires go to?

Im addition, there are two BLACK wires in a heavy plastic and the kit included this capacitor. I am assuming the wires go to the capacitor and dont think it matterS to which plug, but I want to make sure?

As far as the air is concerned, there are two exits and an entrance.

The kit came with this little plastic screw in thing???? What the heck, is this a filter? If so, this appears it will break easily? Is there a better filter to screw in that I can purchase?

My intentions are to come out of the pump into a manifold. I want two summer and two winter diffusers and will take all four off of that. That said, can I just block one of the exits on this pump without hurting it and go straight to my manifold?

Here are some pics and thanks for any help. This kit came with two ring diffusers as well but i purchased four vertex diffusers.

Did you post a pic of this gizmo and I'm just missing picking it out of the pic?

ITS kinda sticking out in the top pic but this will help

Yeah that's the air inlet filter and IMO that one looks like a weak link in your setup. Doesn't matter how good your compressor is if it is starved for air. I bought a replacement assembly from one of the members here that he designed himself and uses inexpensive lawn mower filter elements (about $3 each). The filter that came with my setup was small and replacement elements were $12. The new one has way more surface area. If you want more info on the one I bought, shoot me a PM and I will give you the members name.

Dave,

Get a better pic of the white tag in this shot where it says motor. I can't make it out.


Also, with the wires loose like this, as well as on my compressor and LL's, they are intended to be mounted in an electrical rated enclosure. The people that sold this would not know this, but you can not have the capacitor and wiring exposed in a DIY compressor box. Sorry, but I don't write NEC code.

If you use a DIY compressor box like most that build decent ones, you could get away with a low cost NEMA 1 enclosure with a couple vents for air flow.

OK Guy's and Gals, if you get a compressor like this that has an external capacitor, not protected with a cover integral to the motor, and loose wires that do not terminate in a wiring box ON the motor or come with an integral power cord, they MUST BE mounted in a NEMA rated electrical enclosure, or a UL listed assembly, which they were originally intended for.

If I didn't mention this...

Mines been in this for three years. I have the bottom cut out where the exhaust on the pump is and holes drilled on the side with mesh wire for fresh inlet air.

http://www.zoro.com/suncast-deck-box-h-2...mp;gclsrc=aw.ds

here is the tag, im lost on the enclosure your talking about.

Both black wires hook up to the capacitor with the female terminals onto the males, so plug one into one side and the other, on the other. Not polarity sensitive, so just get one on one set of spades, and the other, on the other set.

Brown and Blue wires hook up to your line power. That would be the 120V from your circuit breaker, so pick one you want to be neutral and the other you want to have the CB on. Usually Blue is neutral and Brown is juice, but it don't matter because these wire colors are not technically in any code and it's single phase alternating current. Six of one, half a dozen of another, can't screw it up.

I'll have to fill you all in on the enclosures you should be using for all this loose wiring, now that someone actually want's to do it correct.

Thx, and yes I want to do it correctly unless it means spending a fortune on a box.

You also originally mentioned using the correct breaker for the motor plate?

THX

I would temporarily hook up the compressor to see how the exposed fans move air. Which direction is it pushing out of, or if the fans are opposed pushing air thru the motor, or drawing it out.

Is there a threaded boss on the compressor, or some place you can hook the ground wire to?

Bill, I like your cabinet a lot. I think I will go this direction but mine will have to be totally enclosed around here or I will have wasp nests galore.

Dave

I can find a way to ground it I am sure. As far as the original issue with the correct breaker based on the motor plate, what would you recommend?

Dave

Dave,

I worried about wasps as well but so far no sign of them in the pump house. I find nests lots of other places though!

I wonder if they don't like the vibrations when the compressor is running or maybe don't like the cedar siding???

IMHO However you do it, make sure you have good ventilation.

Never had wasps make a nest in my compressor boxes either.

Did have a mouse get in and chew on wiring though. I now make sure they can't get in.

With a PSC motor, I would not go heavy on the trip curve as inrush current is rather low. UL-489 rated 6 amp with a "C" trip curve should work well. 6A CB

Would be nice to get a 5.5A, but they don't make them. This will instantly trip if it sees 30 amps, then in less than one second the curve kicks in, which is time-temp dependent.

Circuit/device protection is fairly complicated to explain due to the myriad of devices and laws in place and available.

A customer had a brand new 1/4hp 115V single phase motor on a rig. They tried to start it and smoke was coming out, so they shut it off quick. It had built in thermal protection, which by design should have tripped within 10 seconds, as with all thermal protection by law. Went there and hooked up meters. Kicked it on for a couple seconds, saw smoke, meter said it was eating 32 amps. If we waited for the thermal protection to wake up and kick in, motor would have been melted. Motor was way too small for what they wanted it to do. Temporarily hooked up the correct CB to it to show them, and every time they tried to start it under the overload conditions it instantly tripped. Pulled the motor off the load and all was cool. I can stop/stall a 1/4 hp motor with my hand like I'm sure most can, but wear leather gloves. Put the squeeze on it and had them watch the meter on how the amps climb way over SF (Service Factor), but the thermal overloads were still sleeping. Should have tripped, but they didn't. CB caught it way before damaging overload and tripped.



Carry On...

Hey JKB, Is that breaker something I can GET IN A SIEMENS breaker? Thats the type panel I have.

You won't find this type of CB that will fit in any of the typical home style load center breaker panels, as they simply don't make them.

The intent here is device level protection, secondary to your main breaker panel. 15 amp breaker in your main panel feeding the branch circuit your compressor is on. This CB goes between your main breaker and the motor.

As I tried, but failed to explain before, is your compressor, as well as mine are appliance devices. Original intent was to be used inside of an appliance, like maybe a vending machine or some other gizmo... Who really knows the initial intent. But, inside of that gizmo, you most likely would have device level protection on the compressor, as well as other devices in the assembly.

Me thinks I should not have brought this subject up.

Understanding, and the fact you bought a jar of Olives for the challenge... Never opened... Enjoy the next two years

Would like to see a video tho

So...

JKB's right that I bought jar of olives, picture proof sent to him a few days after the challenge, and that I was (albeit reluctantly) serious about accepting his challenge.



Then the procrastination set in, the jar of olives still sitting on the counter, which I have seen every day since buying them, wondering when and how I will take this on.

I realize this issue is just taking up space on the forum, because as it stands, I'm currently the only one I know who doesn't like olives. And it's the only food besides those little Vienna Wieners that my brain (and everything below it) seems to reject.

Then yesterday I get this PM from Phil (JKB):


Followed by a personal phone call from Phil, a great chat about the Steelhead being caught on the same river we fly-fished on, and my gratitude for his unmerited generosity, I knew at that point I had been incentivized! (Although again he says I don't have to go through with it)

So Phil, in true PBF gratitude, thank you again for the 2 year renewal!

The GoPro battery is on the charger and with my son coming over tomorrow for his birthday, I'll have him do the filming which I know he will take great pleasure in

At least that's my plan as of now

I'm 100% with you on those little wieners! Those and Lima Beans

Those little wieners should probably work well for catfish bait tho

Oh, remember to chill the olives overnight.

FWIW, I just put the olives in the frig and noticed on the label it says "Serving size 2 olives"

Any more than that and I'd be worried about overdosing on my Recommended Daily Allowance of
>
>
>
>
>
Olives

Don't want you to OD now, but seeing that it is a daily recommendation, we should see that whole jar gone in short order

BTW, I've been working on a low cost rig that people can install in their compressor houses that will offer a higher level of motor protection. I'll order parts next week and check them out. This should make it easy.

I'll keep you informed.

I just ordered this little box. $15.00 and free shipping.


Has Din rail installed inside to mount the CB's I'm talking about. This one will mount (4) CB's , plus other necessary junk inside.

You can mount this inside one of your compressor house creations, well, some that I've seen, and be cool!

I'll have more later.

You guys want me to continue on with this? Or call it a dead issue?

http://www.sun-gazing.com/get-rid-wasps-using-brown-paper-bag-im-happy-learned/

I'LL call device protection a dead issue here. Just keep in mind that you can grenade a compressor and smoke it, or overheat it under too much load, or undervoltage and smoke your investment that way.

Just trying to help, but I can't understand it for you.

Good luck!

Just finished mine a couple weeks ago. Thanks for all the help from those on this forum.

Nice job on your system


I have been building and doing other big projects. I now have my system here including four difussers and a manifold to split it into four that I just built today.

So now I need to build my housing and build a difusser base for one (1) difusser each that will sink?

any suggestions.

Im using 9 inch Vertex purple difussers.

Looks great!......Is that a Bill C. air filter? IMHO the best and most economical to maintain filter available.

Thats the same filter I bought as well.

RUMBLON