Alright now, here's a new one for everybody. This winter I plan on opening a new thread, which I'll leave a mystery for now, but I think there will be lots of interest in. However, in order to adequately prep myself I'm going to need to ask a couple of different questions.

I happen to think that a pond of about 4,000 square feet in size, and an average depth of 5 feet, with a maximum depth of 12-15 feet is a very interesting size pond to study. To me this size pond is intrigueing because it's a size large enough to support two or three species, in a somewhat natural interaction, but be small enough to be fairly inexpensive to build and can be drained as a management tool.

Two of my ponds meet this criteria. One of them has had a couple of days of serious oxygen deficits during the very heat of the summer. Once I was aerating and pumping in water at a fairly high rate. A dieoff of micro and macrophytic life still overwhelmed my airlift's ability to provide O2. The other time I had a couple of calm nights, combined with an algae crash and I lost fish as well. Each time the well water was being infused at about 12 gpm and was being sprayed under pressure at concrete blocks through 2.5 gpm sweeper nozzles.

Now here's where I think it gets interesting. When my O2 started to plummet early this August I tried something new, that worked incredibly well. I bought a new, bigger nozzle that delivers 8 gpm but instead of spraying it over concrete blocks, I supported to nozzle horizontally about four inches under the surface. My pressure tank on my well was at about 50 psi. An amazing result was that the water in my 4,000 s.f. pond began to swirl around the pond. The DO levels immediately went through the roof! I had been measuring levels that varied from a high of 6.5 ppm in the afternoon to 2.5 ppm at night (sometimes lower). After changing to a circulating system the DO went from 7.8 in the afternoon but never dropped below 4.5 at night. To a fish grower this is a huge difference!

Now to non fish growers I present the following theory. Kasco, and some other companies sell surface aerators of .5 and .75 hp that are mounted on the surface of a pond and cause a "bubble" effect. This doesn't turn water over like an airlift, so it's not as efficient at overall O2 delivery, but it does deliver O2 quite well at night. Anyway, what would be the effect on smaller ponds of buying the horizontal mount and swirling the pond water day and night? Could the effect on everyday ponds be as similarly dramatic as on my pond? Is there a chance that such a system would allow southern ponds to support fish that ordinarily require a little cooler water? Could someone in Oklahoma grow a few yellow perch? Maybe a guy with a small pond in Oklahoma could try this. My pond completely changed colors when I began horizontal circulation. What had been brownish for two months changed to jade green. Even my deeper water without an airlift measured O2 that was usable by fish.

I just thought this might generate a little intrigue. Any thoughts?

Here's a link to a product that might do the trick. I AM NOT advocating this particular brand. There may be others that Ted Lea Forevergreen might be able to provide for our edification.
http://www.aeratordeicer.com/circulators.html

Bruce:

If you were as interested in Dentistry as you are in ponds, cavities and gingivitis(sp?) would be history.

This is one of those concepts that after it is thought of, seems so simple. Forced turnover via water flow under pressure (or apparently horizontal airflow). I've watched this about 10,000 times while filling watering troughs, and the idea never crossed the plane into the pond management area of my brain.

I'm assuming you see hope for cooler-than normal species from temperature averaging the water in the entire pond (top to bottom), with O2 levels also distributed fairly evenly top to bottom. Is this correct?

Interesting concept Bruce. I would be curious to know what effect, if any, the shape of the pond would play on the O2 results. One would think a circular pond would reap the most benefits.

Russ and Theo. You're both right on the money. My pond is closer to circular than anything else. It has a little character to it, but no sharp shoreline bends. My 8 gpm sweeper nozzle is about four feet from shore, angled parallel to the shoreline. It's making the water spin around the entire periphery. I didn't think the one nozzle could do the trick, but this pond has 150,000 gallons and on a calm morning you can see the little surface particulate working it's way around the entire edge.

I am actually hoping that my deeper water isn't turned over as frequently, leaving a cooler layer on the bottom but with enough circulation to not become anoxic.

Bruce :

Great idea !! It seems that with a little endg. you could make the system also be lowered in the pond with the sweeper nozzle pointing up to use it to turn over the water and add o2 at depth and to cool the pond in summer. You need to think about current flow to see what water is moving where to get an idea of mixing effect. If you ran the sweeper until the top water was well oxygenated and then lowered the nozzle (pointed up) the currents should bring cool water up and pull the oxygen rich water from the pond sides down toward the deep nozzle based on currents. This does not however take into accout water temps. and density and pressure . A very neat idea and concepts. Bill Cody posted on a DO crash event that described the shallow mixing effect. ewest

Because this is also causing a "lazy river" current effect, you may be able to get certain species of fish to reproduce where they would not normally in a pond setting.

Perhaps if visibility permits (more likely in cold weather when plankton is minimal), you could get a feel for what the circulation route under water is with some small neutral bouyancy objects. That prompts three questions:
1) What to use for neutral bouyancy markers
2) Would cold weather circulation be the same as in warm weather (need a good fluid dynamics guy)?
3) Why do I have such a hard time spelling neutral (nuetral, nutral, neiutral, neutrail, etc.)?

Theo,

The best "fluid dynamics guy" I know is my pop. He's a retired plumber and knows how to use a drain snake.

Good idea Bruce. I am using a similar setup with venturi injectors instead of the sweeper nozzle. They add air to the mix and (depending on how you size it) increase velocity. More expensive than the nozzles but very efficient and easy to set up.

Russ:

My Dad and Grandpa were both plumbers; if you have to use a snake, it is SEMI-fluid dynamics at best.

Here's a picture of my idea for horizontal aeration at work.

This idea looks like it will "push" surface vegetation somewhat to help in control. Bruce what kind of surface area in sq. ft. are you visibly moving. This could be the trick to help in duckweed ponds. The circular motion would repeatedly pull the duckweed thru the turbide water. Now you have me thinking on a new line! Standard aeration just pushes out a hole in the middle but never disturbs the duckweed. Great post Bruce.

On a calm morning I can see the small fish pellets moving on the entire surface of the pond. I would assume that duckweed would be disturbed quite a bit. I even wondered if the "lazy river" effect might disorient zooplankton and tiny invertebrates making it a little easier for the bluegill to forage.

All of the shrimp farmers in my neighborhood use a system to create the lazy river effect, most of their systems employ a series of paddles placed at intervuls around a square or rectangular pond, somewhere between 1/2 and 2 acres. They fertilize and feed to the point of pollution, but boy, do they turn out the shrimp. The more modern ones, line the pond and recirculate the water, filtering out the pollutients. The fish and crab farmers use the same systems. It appears that they are able to feed and fertilize to maximize growth. However, they are only working on one age group of animal and will cull the entire group at the end of the growing season.
But, Bruce I don't know if this would fit into your $150 a month allowance.
I would like to try a single species, male only maybe 2000 to start and see what would happen at the 10 year mark.
I can see why you changed your vote to Marianne, you poetic devil you.

Hi Bruce,In looking over your numbers can you tell me at what water depth you took a reading for your DO level after the 8gpm horizontal nozzle was installed.I also see that the 12 gpm well water being infused into the pond would be a high percentage of new water (approx 11%)I have never had a crash that took all the fish out that had a system with the ability to turn the column over at least twice per day unless the crash was due to chemistry.Even then the mortality was perhaps 25%. Do you know what your airlift device is turning. I ran the lifting ability numbers on a few models of diffusers and see that even at 1800 gpm with 1 cfm in 5 ft of water you would get "17" turns and I would think this would lift beyond any need.Even 85F water at 80% saturation would of provided 6 ppm of DO.Perhaps placing a diffuser in shallow water 3-5 ft and regulating the airflow would provide you with the same results.Im also wondering if in this small pond that even with horizontal aeration that a lot of the cooler temps in the 12ft areas wont be lost as any type circulation will effect the bottom water to a degree. Cooler water on the bottom is great in theory when is has a way to receive and retain DO and this is one of the sacrifices with any type of aeration system,you will warm the bottom.With bottom diffused aeration warming the bottom the most.Normally this is only of concern on the cold water fish types. My concern is always that the benefit of cooler water on the bottom for warm water fish may not outweigh the many benefits of a warmer more aerobic bottom.Your DO drop at night of 4.5 range is a level that I see as a minimum and is not difficult to acheive in most cases.Your dieoff of micro and macro life must of been massive and hopfully will not occur again in that fashion. If you wanted to centralize a diffuser but the depth is excessive consider floating the diffuser at different depths as they are easy to suspend.I highly encourage pond managers to know their cfm input at different depths (pressures) and what those turnover rates are at those different depths.Also to be considered is that what we find may work in a .09 acre pond will not in a pond twice that size by just simply doubling the inputs.This is what makes pond management the graet fun that it is.Ted

Here's an update on circular aeration pond.

Water from hydrant to two sweeper nozzles. Cost $45.



Circular aerator from Kasco with custom four-point mounting system that I had made from scrap aluminum and scrap fence post from local fencing company. Cost $650.



Four fence posts from fence company to mount circular aerator system when water level is full. The float can move up and down the post with water fluctuation. Cost $0



Dock made from lumber from Menards. Just the right size for single piece of treated 4 X 8 plywood. Cost $85



Bluegill condominium made from scrap 8" corrugated plastic drain tile and junk fence posts. Cost $0



Close up view of bluegill condomimium.



The inside of my shed in a rare clean moment.

Bruce :

Your surgery stitching skills are showing on the BG condo sewing. Not. :p I like the concept though. Does it work well ? What is the Diet Dew can for?

Perspective.

Bruce, please remember to reserve one BG Condo unit for Dudley. He likes to sublet various pond properties around the states.

Great photos! I especially like Condello's condos. When electrofishing lakes and ponds with bluegill, I always find the largest fish deep inside the most dense cover, especially places like beaver lodges. I would love to see how many fish will hang out in those pipes.
The biggest question looming in my mind is how many of us live on Diet Mountain Dew? Condello does, Theo does, and I do. Anyone else prefer diet dew as drink of choice?

I'm a straight Dew man myself. It really wires me too!

Bruce,

Does your Menards have the sleeves that you can bolt to the side of a 2 by 6 and slide your post down into it? I put my piers in during ice up this way. I slide the pier out on the ice than cut holes in the ice where the sleeves are bolted to the pier. Then I slide the galvanized posts into the sleeve into the water and to the bottom and drive them in. Next I jack the pier up above the ice and tighten the bolts on the sleeves. Works like a charm if you have good ice. Of course I'm waiting for the ice to come back so I can put more piers out on the other ponds! :rolleyes:

Diet Mountain Dew as a drink of choice? Why? Folgers going out of business? Is there a shortage of Budweiser? Is the agave plant threatened?

Diet Mountain Dew is for pussies.

Sunil, I'm just going to ignore that.

Question for the other DMD/MD drinkers: Do you drink enough Dew to make your teeth glow green in the dark?

Question for Bruce: What exactly has happened to my teeth to cause this?

All I know is when I'm all out and I see all those empty cans or bottles I say to myself, "There is no way I drank all that!"

I love the 'rush' from a dew, but occasionally will accidently grab a diet dew, and it makes me gag. The sugar and caffeine keeps me going on a road trip.

Bruce, do you have CC, or will you have them? or will the Yellow perch be the predator?

Does CC mean Crown and Coke? I prefer Jack...

Won't need a predator! It'll have male Condello strain bluegill, female yellow perch and male redears. :p

Sounds fascinating! I want some of their F1's.

I like Jack. Have you tried the single barrel?
Too good.

That is a tuff crowd of predators !! Those RES better sharpen their pharyngeal crushers.

Ewest, the Doc. will probably order in a few bushels of Cherrystone clams from Cheasapeake Bay, crack and hand feed them.

G'day guys. Interesting thread. I've been planning to install an aeration system on my own pond. Now, having seen this thread I am considering using the irrigation pump already installed at the edge of the water (used to water my animals and lawn areas arround the property). If I install a T-section and stop-cock from the main line complete with an electric solenoid timer and run this line back into the circular pond (weighted to the bottom and angled either verticularly or at 45degrees)WILL/SHOULD it aerate the pond and prevent stratification????? Would 8hrs per day be enough? How can I test DO levels? Pond is 1/4 acre and 15feet deep.

Hey Aussie. Your situation is very similar to mine. My pond is a little smaller but about the same depth. I angled my sweeper nozzle down about 1 or 2 degrees. Just enough to keep it from wasting some of it's energy in splashing. Ask NEDOC...just that one nozzle would turn the water in the little pond. I tested DO a couple of times and it improved dramatically.

I think aeration is achieved in several different ways, acting in harmony. First of all, the pressure stirs the water, which increases the net surface area which is exposed to the atmosphere over time. Secondly, the cooler water in the well is heavier that the warm surface water in which it is discharged. This heavier water near the surface has to drop and this creates a subtle turnover effect. In addition to this, some ponds are so protected from wind that on calm or near calm nights you get a protein skim on the water's surface which limits gas transfer into the water column. Lastly, the pressure as the water enters the pond creates an atmospheric downdraft which literally puts thousand of bubbles into the water column. It worked immediately, and prevents me from having to run an aerator in this pond. I've done some research on the internet and found a couple of references to Thailand shrimp farms that use circulation instead of aeration and they are able to produce an unbelievable quantity of shrimp per acre. Just astounding!

If you didn't run it 24/7 I think that nighttime would give you the most benefit.

For those of you who don't get it yet.

The Jack Daniels Black Label bottles are the 8gpm sweeper nozzles. The Jack Daniels Single Barrel is the circulator, and the Diet Dew cans represent trophy sized female yellow perch.

Bruce :

Why is one sweeper nozzle empty , one sweeper nozzle half empty , the circulator mostly full and the YP standing on their tails while no one can get a handle (rope) on (near) them. You realize if you open that system up the YP will soon empty themselves into the pond and be mere shells of their former selves.

That is your greatest piece of work yet Bruce. Wish I could have come up Saturday to help with the 'circulator'. Haha, see you soon.

That much Mountain Dew could really be bad for your health. Be careful and take it in moderation.

WHY do you have more than one pair of jump ropes????

Don't even try to say that they belong to your daughters.

And please, please, please tell me that you're not using DMD as a mixer.

This is a cry for help, plain and simple.

Boy, entertainment must be real hard to come by in a Nebraska winter. I once knew a guy who tried mixing Dr. Pepper with nearly everything. But, even he knew about Black Jack. Talk about a wasted education. For shame, Bruce.

You gotta be kiddn', DD. SIX CANS bad for your health?

If six cans were bad for my health, I'd be dead. Every other day. :p

Friends, please ignore your taste buds, and try to have some consideration for your gastro-intestinal system, not to mention your liver and kidneys.

They don't like the Dew, diet or not.

Mine dew.

I like your idea and I'll have to check that out at Menards. I had to do it this way because I needed the aluminum frame for the float to be flexible, due to the fact that I knew I'd never get the support posts exactly parallel. Also, it was free!!

Theo,

The ability to culture luminescent bacteria in you mouth is nothing to be terribly proud of.

Because the construction of this particular visual aid dehydrated me.

The jump ropes belong to my girls....honest.

I would never use DMD to dilute my whiskey, nor would I use whiskey to dilute my DMD. :p

Quote

Theo,

The ability to culture luminescent bacteria in you mouth is nothing to be terribly proud of.


ROTFLOL ---good one Bruce !!!

Quote

Because the construction of this particular visual aid dehydrated me

If you consumed all of that I am suprised you could line up the ropes and Dew cans. Hmmmm.

:D

That's CYANO-luminescent bacteria, Mr. Part-Time Peridontal. :p

--- Mr. part-time ... who drinks out of a sweeper nozzle !!! :p

Look closely at this photo provided by our friend RAD. This is an example of a shrimp farm in Thailand producing ridiculous densities of shrimp with electric driven pond circulation. I don't believe that my density will be anywhere close to what these guys are producing.



Keep in mind that I'm not in any way implying that I think this is better than standard aeration. I just think that it may possibly, in some situations, be an alternative method of keeping pond water quality up to standards. Definitely not for everybody, but maybe something to give someone else something to think about.

Is that Rad standing by the boat?

No, I believe that's a plant.

That would be me on the left, I told you I was nine feet tall.

I just made that comment to see if it would make lurkers look back at the pic to see Rad.

It's a generally accepted fact that if you don't drink Diet Dew that it hampers your ability to evaluate digital images.

Rad :

How does that setup work ? I can't tell from the pic. because I don't drink D. Dew and therefore I don't see in 1s and 0s (digital).

100101001111011010011011100110

110100111011

Don't make me start posting in binary!!

You don't want that.

EDIT: Don't make me get binary on your ass!

Theo is such a showboat!

ewest,
Bruce has another picture, a close up of the paddles, they look a little like kitchen spatulas, the ones with the holes in them. They aerate and circulate the water at the same time. Our power is 250v 50 cycles and is reasonably inexpensive. It's pretty scary, there is a lot of bare wire, motors in standing water and wire used in place of drive belts.

That sounds a lot like the systems used by the catfish farmers in the Miss. delta. There source of power is tractors and they use paddle wheel systems.

Man, you guys aren't going to believe this without a picture, but I hooked up my circulator last night and let 'er run for an hour, and I turned my 1/7 acre pond into a river! I had cattail stalks going by me at about 1 ft. per second. Another cool thing is that it didn't affect the yellow perch or the bluegill in the slightest. They continued to eat pellets and were biting on jigs within two minutes of turning the rig on.



I've asked this before, so I'm sorry for the repeat, but what is the formula for energy costs of a 3/4 hp circulator 110/120 with 6.7 running amps? I'm debating whether to run it 24/7 or to run it during the night to oxygenate and keep the pond from heating too much in the hot summer sun.

Between running the sweeper nozzles one way down one bank, and the circulator the other way down the other bank, you may not be able to get a light lure to get to the bottom! I'll be carefully documenting O2 levels throughout the summer, but I think this device could work quite well on a pond that is considerably bigger than this one.

Also very cool--the feeder went off during my test, and the pellets spun around the pond, about ten minutes per lap and the yellow perch chased them down. The pellets stayed in the current and never went to the shoreline, which may have the added benefit on breezy days of not pushing the pellets to the shore as often happens with a vertical diffusion system. As many of you already know, those pellets end up rotting, or feeding turtles and froggies.

I'll also be documenting shoreline erosion issues. I may have to set some flat stones along the first bank that the current hits from the circulator.

Yep, FrankieBruce has been in the Dew cabinet again.

Bruce:

6.7 amps running 24/7 is 6.7X24x30 = 4824 amp-hours per month. Multiply by 115v to get volt-amp-hours (watt-hours) is 4824x115 = 554,760 watt-hours per month, divide by 1000 gives 555 kilowatt-hours per month.

Check your electric bill and you should be able to see how much a kilowatt-hour costs you, delivered. IIRC (and it's a WAG) a very ROM figure nationally is $0.11 per kilowatt-hour, which would be $61.05 per month, IF my math is good and IF that $0.11 per kilowatt-hour is valid. Your own electric bill is the best source on cost anyway.

P.S. Are you still claiming that empty DMD can is in the photo just to provide info on the size of the hardware?

That thar's some good info.

The can's not empty. I keep full ones sitting around for emergencies. Don't even care if they're cold!

I have learned something. A .75 hp horizontal aerator is awfully big for a .15 acre pond! After installing and turning on the unit the water stayed at saturation for oxygen continuously, but the clarity started to deteriorate. Secchi readings dropped from 26 inches down to 8 inches and the water turned brownish from suspended sediment. I've sinced turned it off and the secchi readings are creeping up about .5 inch per day. I am going to move the unit to my 1.25 acre pond and try to switch to a surface agitator in the little pond to work in tandem with my two horizontally oriented sweeper nozzles. My DO is still virtually 100 percent saturation, but I've seen that change quickly in the summer so I'm not taking any chances.

OK, remember how I had a horizontal aerator running? I had two sweeper nozzles running one way on the south edge of the pond and the Kasco aerator running the other way on the north edge. Well this created too much current. You could almost get dizzy watching the surface of the pond. The unfortunate side effect was that suspended sediments were keeping the water an unsightly brown and inhibiting plant growth. After turning off the aerator I moved it to my big pond and it is currently transecting the pond with a nice current and the clarity is remaining excellent at Secchi readings of 25 inches.

Now I've purchased a 3/4 horsepower surface agitator. After installing the unit I was completely shocked to see how much agitation comes from a unit this size. I thought it was a malfunction at first! The crown of foam was about three feet high and at least 6-7 feet across. Supposedly we're going to see a delivery of O2 at 2.2 pounds per hour. The sweeper nozzles are still providing circulation, but maybe only 1/4 what it was. Secchi readings have jumped back up to about 12 inches and are still improving. I plan on running continuously, but have considered the possibility of running only at night to keep from adding too much heat into the water column. It will be a fight between the cooling of 16 gpm well water (later to be increased to 24) and the heating of the surface agitator. I hope the YP bear with me as I work out this system.

My Dad can regularly catch perch from 7.5 to 9 inches right now with a rare bluegill added in.

I'll keep you all informed of developments.

Does he enjoy that more than being able to surf with the old setup?

Bruce be careful with our YP as we all have a lot invested in them. :p We let you get by with boiling a few alive in the hot tub , and warned you about trying to tan them with reflective foil from the window and even let slide the tidal wave surf set up. But I don't know about shaking them to death with a super sized tsunami agitator. Please don't try anything unusual with those mean RES they will surely decapitate you.

I second that. They are all gonna get an O2 high!
My wife bought a pump for her beta aquarium, and the little guy cant even chase his food down. I'm gonna have to pinch off the supply tube.

Theo: I have four squirrels that have given up water skiiing for surfing in my pond.

ewest: If the RES decapitated me it would at least be a merciful end.

burgermeister: That's funny. I already think that my fish are in a constant state of sedation from the salinity. They fight really hard, but they're awfully lazy when it comes to biting. The O2 high will probably make them wobble when they swim.

Here is the famous Twiggy...I guess they will need to teach her surfing now!

Some news that's exciting for me anyway...

My horizontal aeration pond is clearly cooler than my regular ponds.

The surface temperature two afternoons ago was 71.5 F. and the other ponds were at 74.5 degrees. While this may not seem significant, it could be the difference between life and death for some cooler water fish.

Anybody in Texas who wants to have some smallies, or in Nebraska who wants yellow perch, or in Michigan and wants rainbow trout might be able to benefit from this.

I am currently running the surface agitator during the night to add oxygen, but not heat to the pond. The sweeper nozzles are running 24/7, but still only 16 gpm between two nozzles. Very encouraging.

Not water skiing squirrels were noted.

For anybody even remotely interested in aeration by circulation, I've made an important discovery.

As you may know, I initially tried a Kasco circulator along with sweeper nozzles oriented in tandem parallel to the shore and the surface to try to create a "spin". Thinking this was a great way to keep the water quality high and the oxygen levels high, I proceeded with the project as stated. After a short period of time with the circulator I discovered that the "spin" was too great and I was getting high levels of suspended sediment.

I subsequently switched to a surface agitator of the same size (3/4 hp) and ran it only at night, but continued to run the sweeper nozzles for circulation. My water cleared up and the fish have been thriving. My Secchi readings were under ten inches with the Kasco circulator running and have since increased to 27 inches today.

Today I decided to run a full water column profile because we are partially into a tremendous hot spell. Here are my findings.

DEPTH TEMP DO

surface 78 8.5

1 meter 78 8.5

2 meter 78 8.0

3 meter 78 6.5


These readings were taken at 11 a.m. on July 15, 2006.

I retook the readings at 2:30 p.m. same day and the only parameter that changed is that the surface temp went up to 79 degrees F.

As you can see, I've completely killed my thermocline. I thought that by reducing the circulation I'd still have a band of cool water for the yellow perch near the bottom. I was wrong.

The good news is that I've experienced no mortality of any kind, the fish are feeding vigorously in the late evening (maybe too vigorously) and that I've got tons of O2 available.

If anybody wants to comment on whether my yellow perch are going to perish this week with highs near 102 degrees, feel free.

I did decrease the feeding schedule to only one second per day to try to keep waste products to a minimum. I've gotten this far with the yellow perch. I hope they don't die.

I also noted some crazy spawning activity in the little shallow corner. Big bluegill were rotating wildly around the nest, and chasing the 6.5 inch feed trained bluegill that I've recently stocked off of the territory. I may be mistaken, but it looked like one bluegill was pairing up with a female redear. No chasing, just gentle spinning. I hope I'm right.

Bruce we are constantly learning.
I am pretty sure your current group of young (1-2yr olds) yellow perch will survive water temps of 88F; after that get nervous.

I think the female RES will decide that BG is not the right guy for her; wrong "side of the tracks". Although she might be a "switch hitter"...

Female RES and male BG are like pairing up a tough Roller Derby Queen with Malcolm Milquetoast - if he lives through it, he'll be a man!

With no one to mate with and a fair # of each my guess is in time you will have F1 mBG X fRES -- a match made in heaven (isn't that what the Condorosa is). That drive to mate is pretty strong and at least one pair will end up switch hitting.

There is always a couple in every crowd with rogue behavior. Nature always seems to work best that way; it is sometimes referred to as variability.

Bruce, I currently have two cages of yellow perch that are similar sized as your newly stocked perch. My caged perch are confined to the upper warm water layer and my near surface water is running at or slightly above your water temperatures (80F-82F). I will experience your current hot weather for the next several days. Stay in contact with me through August as to how the perch are feeding to compare notes on temperature stress levels of your perch.

We're probably about even. I'll bet my surface temp hit at least 80 by this afternoon. I'll carefully watch feeding behavior and amounts consumed.

Yesterday--Air temps of 106 F. and water surface temps of 81 F. Yellow perch and bluegill had a tremendous feeding event. I had to shut them off or they would have kept going. I'm vewwy, vewwy nervous.

I think you made it Bruce! You should know within a day or two if the high temps produced any YP floaters. Based on the strong feeding activity I would guess not.

I agree, vigorous feeding is a good sign IMO. But good restraint in not letting the fishies pig out, Bruce.

I don't know the exact terminology--something like heating days or heating hours or something like that...Anyway I think yesterday will have been the worst day of the year. We'll be cooler for the next week, then if it gets hot again we'll have shorter days to buffer that effect a little. I'm pretty stoked that I haven't lost a single fish to heat or oxygen problems in this pond.

Now I just need to take the herons out of the equation. I've caught three perch with spear marks in them, and who knows how many I never did see.

Do you put the jack daniels black label in the Mountain Dew for the aeration effect? Also can you substitute the Sam's brand Mountain Lightning since it's cheaper?

I'd forgotten all about that photo.

I didn't even know that there is such a think as "Mountain Lightning". That sounds downright frightening.

Mountain Lightning...Is that the same as the "Moonshine" run up here in NC?

Bruce I don't have well water I only have electricity to make DO. So after all your research and I can only buy and run one system. Which one should it be bottom aerator or circulator?

Yesterday I decided to spring for a underwater viewing system so that I could learn more about what's going on in my ponds.

Currently I have two recreational ponds.

One of them is known as "Big Oliver". It is 1.25 acres and holds 11 acre-feet of water. It is being aerated by a 3/4 h.p. Kasco circulator.
The water clarity is 36 inches and it is set up for no reproduction. The fishing is generally poor to fair if you like numbers, but pretty darn good if you like trophies.

The other pond is known as "Hoover Pond". It is .15 acre and holds .75 acre-feet of water. It is being circulated with 54 degree well water that is directed horizontally along one shoreline with 15 gpm at 60 lbs of pressure. It has a 3/4 h.p. surface agitator that runs from midnight to 5:30 a.m.

Hoover pond is where the story begins.

Last year starting July 1, the fish virtually quit all pelleted feed activity. They also became impossible to catch. Any nightcrawler or leech would be ignored. Bobber fishing was useless. Fly fishing with pellet imitators--zilch. I spent two weeks deciding how to break it to the Pond Boss crew that I had killed another batch of fish. I never did see a fish dead.

About middle of August the bluegill started biting and they looked beautiful. About October I saw some huge yellow perch popping up for a few pellets.

In March I found several massive redears dead.

From April through early May the fishing was fantastic. Pellet feedings were frantic, and the fish looked to be in great condition. Yellow perch that I had raised indoors two winters previous were pushing a pound.

Then on about June 28, 2007 the fish did just what they did a year before. Complete cessation of pellet feeding and three hundred fish wouldn't touch a nightcrawler or jig or anything. Fishing stunk!

So back to the underwater camera. I purchased it at Cabelas using a discount coupon, a gift certificate and some credit card points. Pretty exciting. I rigged it up at the side of Hoover pond, hoisted it on to my float tube and started kicking around the pond. Clarity stood at about 25 inches.

I was disappointed at first because I was obviously spooking the fish with my tube because I couldn't see anything.

Then it dawned on me! "Oh, cr**!, they're dead!" I thought, "Man they must have sunk to the bottom. I started looking around on the bottom but nothing.

So then I floated over to the new island and took a peek with the camera.......and there was the biggest bluegill I've ever seen. He looked like a watermelon. Then he scattered. I looked at the other side of the island and there were three more hogs. I was excited beyong belief.

After this I created a way to suspend the camera over the center of the pond near the island and I left the camera for two hours while I went to do other chores. When I came back I decided to pull up a chair and do some serious viewing.

Here's where I made the amazing discovery.

I saw what I thought were tens of thousands of bubbles drifting by. They were too small for the camera to discern, so I just waited for the big fish to swim by. The "bubbles" kept up their continuous parade. Thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands....... You get the picture.

Then I looked a little closer and realized that the bubbles didn't generally go in a straight line. NOW I figured it out.

They were big zooplankton. Every one of them living, swimming creatures. Multitudes of them adrift in the lazy Hoover River. The current of the water keeping them ever afloat--ever vulnerable.

I slowly lowered the camera to the bottom.

When it hit bottom a big plume of "stuff" came off of the couple of centimeters of detritus on the floor of the pond.

Then the plume literally came to life. Thousands more big invertebrates, including quite a few with visible legs.

Holy smokeroonies! The pond is filthy with live, drifting bugs, just waiting to be gulped.

No wonder we can't catch anything. Fishing couldn't be any worse.

No wonder they went off the pellets.

No wonder they're getting huge.

Can't catch 'em though.

What should I do? Should I stock more fish? I've got plenty more really high quality smaller male bluegills. My Dad doesn't seem to frustrated with the poor catch rates, but I'd like him to have better action. After all, it's his pond.

I really honestly think I'm on to something here.

By the way. I videotaped the zooplankton on my wife's Sony digicam, but I have no idea how to get the video from the cam to Photobucket. Maybe if I go back and get a couple of fish on the tape too I can be famous like Dwight.

Bruce
How about your daughter? Pay her, she'll figure it out. Better yet, have her bill me...I cannot wait to view the footage!

BTW the conversation we had at the conference about invertebrates showing up in my small "hard water" pond...you were 100% correct! As you suggested a bucket of water did tell the story. They are small, but everywhere. Strange summer here, hot weather just starting, excessive rain has kept water temps down. Will probably start horizontal aeration and less feeding this week.

Okay, this is 0.15 acre. What are the approximate fish populations in Hoover right now? [I'm sure you know exactly how many Male BG, (Male) RES, and (Female) YP you put in, and have a pretty good idea of morts so far.] I (and probably others) am interested what population density results in such a huge invertebrate population.

If it were me, Bruce, I'd add more male BG or RES, utilize more of that invertebrate base, and keep them all a little hungrier (and hopefully biting year round). If they stayed on pellets all Summer, your total biomass will be (potentially a lot) higher, right? That would cut your chances of a 20 pound gill, however. Or would it? You probably have as good an idea as anyone whether a fish on all the natural food it can possibly eat grows bigger than one with a good, albeit smaller, natural food supply plus all the good pellets it can eat.

I assume that the pond will handle more fish in it without water quality problems.

You need to see if you can pick up one of those skycam setups from a sports stadium. Rig it to 4 posts set on the corners of the pond, and you could use it to move the underwater camera around with minimal disturbance to the fish.

I would like to see a picture of that watermelon!

Assuming good water quality cage raise some more BG and YP in the pond. That way you can put'm in and take'm out as needed.

I have seen similar events at one of our ponds wrt fish not eating (now) due, I assume ,to lots of visible inverts , zooplankton and small forage as per the aqua-view. Recall that CB1's BG have done the same thing.

Great report Bruce! The time of year at when fish start to become "hard to catch" is a great indicator of how strong the forage base currently is. Last year our LMB got tough to catch around August 1st, this year it was July 1st, I have also seen in years past when catchabilty did not change at all with our LMB.

I too would like to see a picture of that "watermelon".

Bruce,
I may have missed something, The sweeper nozzle is puzzling to me. Is there a picture that you can post that shows the whole set up? Is it a pump that sets out of the water that then pumps through a hose to the nozzle?

Just a typical well, run through a pressure tank like would be used with any home.

From the hydrant you would run a 1 inch sprinkler hose with a brass sweeper nozzle on the end. The size of the nozzle dictates the flow rate, and the pressure in the tank dictates the speed with which the water exits.

This system is definitely NOT as efficient as a normal airlift type aeration system, but if you're delivering water from a pressure tank anyway, you might as well use the energy that's been stored and turn it into a water jet. In general, circulation systems aren't able to tap into the natural buoyance of bubbles to oxygenate, so you typically would spend more dollars per pound of oxygen created than you would with a regular pump/bottom diffuser setup.

The nozzle is placed parallel with the water's surface, about one inch below and sprayed in a manner that the pond circulates. The pressure from the nozzle creates tons of bubbles, but the real aeration comes from the fact that, like an airlift system, it increases the air/water interface by continually exposing new water to the atmosphere, and the oxygen contained therein.

AH thats the part I missed, The part about it being well water, I am interested in the circulating process of the pond, I think my bottom diffuser is lifting ok, I just want to make a surface skimmer that concentrates my surface trash using 1/2 pvc and swim noodles postioned so that the leaves and stuff are trapped for easy removal. With my pond being in the timber every little bit I can get out before it sinks will help. I may look into a submersible pump and put a nozzle on it to see what type of flow I can get out of it

Maybe Agent can help get that video on the forum. Although Agent used you-tube, not photobucket.

Agent, where are you?

80 BG - - 80 lbs
20 RES - - 20 lbs
150 YP - - 120 lbs
5 SMB - - 10 lbs
3 BG X RES - - 3 lbs

233 lbs of fish = about 1,400 lbs/acre

When fish are actively taking pellets they will consume 5 lbs/day

Currently consuming less than 1 lb/day

Adding an average of 20,000 gallons of fresh water each day to a pond with 250,000 gallons, so it's essentially "replaced" every two weeks or so. That means about eight full summertime replacements.

Secchi readings range from 20-50 inches, with an average of about 30.

I suspect that a cage culture would do great because of the circulation, but I don't want to clutter an already small pond up anymore than it already is.

I love the idea of adding more RES, but I'm really fearful of the wintertime mortality issues that I haven't resolved yet.

So I guess I should probably go with more feed trained male bluegill. I don't know how many more I could add, but when Lusk did a personal inspection of the pond he stated that he thought it could support 300 or even 400 pounds of total fish biomass.

I wish I could think of another non-reproducing, pellet consuming fish for the pond, but if I add the bluegill, then I can cull fish later on that aren't thriving as well.

Shorty! Listen up! The redears that I located on camera were tucked in right under the island. I would have figured them for being on the bottom, but they looked like maybe, just maybe they were in a position to be grazing the bottom of the island. I'm planning on bringing my snorkeling gear and checking to see if there are snails under the island. I'll bet there are!

1,400 lbs / acre ! And I was thinking all those invertebrates were there because there was a sparse population. Adult BG/RES/YP must just not eat that stuff at all, compared to fry & fingerlings.

And a pond full of fish averaging almost a pound each. I'm getting my Bruce Condello Action Figure (TM) back out.

Bruce,

Based on your experience, what do you attribute the massive amount of biomass to; water quality, under water vegetation??

OK, here's something we usually don't talk about.

With no reproduction, we have no fry and fingerlings. Fry and fingerlings together if you weighed them, and had two hundred pounds, would increase to eight hundred pounds if a few weeks. Two hundred pounds of adult fish averaging, say, one pound each, might increase to about 210 pounds in a few weeks. Tiny fish are absolute machines when it comes to hammering little invertebrates. They have to be because a two gram fish needs to get to eight grams fast so he doesn't get eaten.

Consequently, my big fish aren't even bothering with little invertebrates. They're just waiting for the little invertebrates to get big so they can just slurp them up as they drift by.

You've seen overgrazed pasture. I think that's what most ponds are that have significant YOY numbers.

That's my current theory anyway.

Extremely good water quality.

High DO's all day long. Fresh water inflow. Great alkalinity. Great pH.

Polled herefords have to be the laziest cattle in the world (that's why we have them - they're too lazy to make trouble).

Polled hereford Heaven is a field full of clover and timothy so high and thick that they can lay down and eat for half a day, moving only their necks and heads.

Hoover Pond is the panfish equivalent of hereford Heaven.

------------------------------------------------

What do the Smallies eat, Bruce?

Very interesting, makes me wonder where the ones we stocked are right now.

quote Bruce:I'm planning on bringing my snorkeling gear and checking to see if there are snails under the island. I'll bet there are!

It's been nice knowing you big guy.

Shorty if they are not spawning then I bet in the grass eating snails , big inverts and small fish !!!

I don't recall even Jacques Cousteau having the nerve to take on Redears under water. Sharks, whales, elephant seals - no problem. But never a Redear.

ewest, I have not been able to positively ID any RES in the large BG spawning colony yet although I seen a couple of that "might be" along the outer edges. This year we have a BG spawning colony that stretches 120 ft long right out in front of the house along the retaining wall. This colony is also directly adjacent to the horizontal aerators on the pond and all of the BG beds are getting a very light current and high DO levels going over them. It makes me wonder what kind of effect this will have on the fry that will hatch. As a side note, while looking for RES last week I saw a male BG actually flare his ear tabs out at another male that got too close to his bed, this is something I thought I would only see a male RES do. We have gazillions of snails again this year, I am also seeing lot's of baby snails in the 1-2 MM size range mixed in the coontail and milfoil. It is very possible that our RES are still slightly smaller than our average male BG sitting on beds right now and that is why I haven't seen any RES mixed in with them.

GINORMOUS!

This is like capturing video of the Loch Ness monster. It even has that weird, grainy, otherworld like quality to it. I managed to take one redear, three yellow perch and about six bluegill this morning in an hour of messing around. This bluegill was significantly bigger than the others. I realize that there's no perspective, but this fish was at least 1/3 longer than one of the others I got on tape, and I know there aren't any fish smaller than 8 inches. So I'm guessing this one at around 11 inches long. Weight unknown.

Until that BG swam by, I thought it was a Saturday night back in college (all gray and blurry and not much to remember).

Bruce:

Can you archive info on video hosting?

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

Stop that bad boy at .03 and look at his eye checking you out and the large helmet he is wearing !!

He needs a helmet that big because he's got a lot of brains!

Bruce,

Is this the pond with the Condello condo installed? If so, have you panned this area with the camera?

Yes it is, and I have.

The only two places I could find fish was under the island and alongside the condo. Lots of activity around the structure.

Couldn't find anything, surprisingly, along the weedline or under the agitator, but there's a good chance I was spooking the fish.

The contrast wasn't that great because of the time of day, but can you see all the zooplankton drifting by just before the fish enters the field of view?

I mean the instructions on how you (or Shelby???) did it, especially the differences from posting photos.

Bruce you need to get with DIED and post a how to take movies from an aqua-view (or similar unit) and post them to PB. Maybe Dwight can help.

My thoughts exactly, Theo. Read...my daughter did all the puter stuff. I know nutting.

OK, I get it.

I'll try to put something together later. It wasn't that hard. I just had to jump through fiery hoops.

I personally think it looks more like a giant whale suddenly coming through, and the sound track to jaws would be very appropriate!

Wait until I start getting those Condello bluegills in that size range in my crystal clear water! :p

Here you go Shorty - BG with flared gills.

ttt - for "the pond girl".

I've recently discovered that horizontal aeration, plus surface agitation can still leave a little to be desired.

Surface temperatures last week reached 88.5 degrees, and the perch started to act strangely. Yellow perch were observed swimming lazily around the periphery of the pond, and could be caught by hand--never a good sign.

There was obviously a massive die-off of algae and rooted vegetation, so the water had kind of a brownish, smelly characteristic.

I decided that I should run a transfer pump from the bottom of the water column. The pump pulls 250 gpm and the pond was 3/4 empty overnight. Interestingly, the water that was exiting the pond was much darker and much smellier than the pond seemed itself.

I'm not sure about the spelling, but the exiting water smells like "silage?".

We ran a seine and encountered some huge bluegill, and also some still healthy yellow perch. They didn't seem too bothered by the poor water quality, not nearly as much as me anyway. I don't know what to do really, but I'm seriously considering adding a traditional airlift system so the the nutrients don't end up all near the bottom of the pond.

bruce, i realize our pond environments are very different, but i have become a huge fan of the traditional airlift system based on the incredibly good water quality it has given me. recall i have no supplemental water. the rainy season input just sits there all summer, stagnating and slowly vanishing. last year w/ virtually no aeration i had excessive weed growth in clear water, and silage like build up on the bottom (as the water receded i could dig into newly exposed dirt and get the same silage smell you describe).

i am down over 5 feet right now, but still have about 10 feet in the deep end. the bottom aeration has definitely provided a refuge for fish throughout the entire water column, helped to promote and hold a beautiful olive green plankton bloom all summer, reduced the visibility and excessive weed growth, and (as water recedes this year) the newly exposed dirt does not smell at all.

i run aeration from 1030 pm to 0730 am when air temps are the coolest. during the day, i let the phytoplankton take over. this has kept the overall pond water temps down from last year as well. despite several 100 degree days, the surface temps are still in the low 80's.

I think our pond environments are very different, but water chemistry issues may be very similar. Basically certain types of bacteria and plants, in certain combinations, will cause harm to a pond and it's occupants.

When does your rainy season start?

in a "normal" year it will start in earnest in November. sometimes it goes early starting in October, other times no significant rain til December or even January....it depends.

i am going to construct an emergency system off of my house well as much as i hate the thought of paying PG&E for putting water in my pond. i'll run a 1/2 or 3/4 inch line to pond and make a 3 or 4 head manifold sprayer (high pressure nozzles) to both add fresh (well) water and hopefully give fish a temporoary refuge if it comes down to that.