Pond Boss
Posted By: Lovnlivin Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 02:46 PM
Hi all, and I apologize as I have a hard time keeping my questions brief. crazy

This is the dam area I want to clear off and there's much more brush and bushes than the picture shows.


Along the circled area is the dam (although an earthen pond) which is steep and drops off to the deepest area of the pond at 9-10' along the blue line. I've been wanting to clear all the brush, small trees (mostly small willows I believe and none over 1-2" in diameter), etc., from the face of the dam but it's too steep to clear without all the debris (or me) falling into the pond.

So, I figured I'd wait until it iced over so I can access it from the pond to clear it all off.

In the picture you can vaguely see where I've place the four diffusers, with the small circled area being the one I'd like to open for the sake of snow-cover and having open water for O2. The pink circle is approximately how much of the water will open up. The depth at that area is 4-5' until it reaches the area of the blue line which is the 9-10' deep channel of the pond which drops fairly quickly. The rest of the pond averages 3-5' deep.

My question is if I open that diffuser, will it make the ice unsafe along the dam to do what I want to do? I will check thickness as I go but I wonder about thin/weak spots due to moving water under the ice.

Thanks for any help and/or ideas.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 03:56 PM
Usually the open water and thinner ice in conjunction with the diffuser is very localized but never take that for granted. A lot of it depends on the temperatures, and the wind when the ice was forming, which in tandem with the diffuser bubble can slow down ice formation a fair distance away.

Short answer: I think you'll be O.K and have safe ice adjacent to the dam but it always a good idea to check with an auger or spud.
Posted By: Sue Cruz Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 04:23 PM
Hi Keith blush ~ I wouldn't chance it ~ why not wait to turn on the diffuser until after you are finished clearing the dam? You shouldn't run into DO problems until later in the winter anyway....
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 05:01 PM
Keith

Tie off with ski rope around your waist to the dock, wear ice spikes on your boots, use spud bar, and also ice claws around your neck.

Ideally wait for a buddy to follow you to help with rescue. Be careful.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 05:24 PM
Hi Sue!

Dan? wink

Originally Posted By: Sue Cruz
Hi Dan ~ I wouldn't chance it ~ why not wait to turn on the diffuser until after you are finished clearing the dam?

Well, that was going to be my plan as soon as the ice was safe but every day the snow stays on the ice I get more concerned about a fish-kill, and although I could clear the snow off with a shovel once it's safe, the water wasn't very clear prior to freezing due to the phytoplankon (greenish color, not at all brownish) and clarity at 12-18". So I don't know how much light penetration it would get.

Originally Posted By: Sue Cruz
You shouldn't run into DO problems until later in the winter anyway....

My pond is pretty shallow overall, I worry (too much about everything ponds) about a plankton die-off, having a very nutrient-rich BOW and a DO Sag/crash to go along with it and losing my fish which were stocked just last year and seemingly doing very well. I'm sure I'm being overly paranoid but I just think about how far I've come and the time and $$ spent to have to possibly start over/re-stock.

I know there are too many variables to hold you to the statement "You shouldn't run into DO problems until later in the winter anyway....", but I'll do everything I can to get out there this weekend to clear the dam. I just don't want to get on the ice alone and it's sometimes hard to find help with this kind of work, in this kind of weather grin

Cecil, thanks for your input as well!

*edit* TJ, in between work distractions and finally posting my response, you got yours in there. Believe me, I'll be tied off, PFD on, DIY ice claws and spiked shoes (still thinking on that one), and I have no idea what a spud bar is confused

Posted By: esshup Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 05:32 PM
Check ice thickness as you go. It can vary greatly. A buddy called me over to his house to drill some holes in the ice for him. He had shoulder surgery so he couldn't do it himself. He had checked the ice with a spud bar the day or 2 before I got there. He said it was 6" or so thick. He and I were standing together when I started drilling with my Laser auger. I only made 4 revolutions with the handle before it broke thru the ice. We scattered like a covey of quail taking flight, as we were in 8' of water. Thinking about it, the ice was probably 2" or less thick in that spot.....

He didn't have an aeration system in his pond, and the only thing that we can think of is that the water flowing in and out of his pond thinned the ice.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 05:52 PM
Thanks Esshup,

Being on the ice just freaks me out! I've never been ice fishing and as much as I wanted to try it last year, what I thought was a safe 6-8" of ice, everywhere I walked it sounded like someone pouring milk on a bowl of rice krispies. So I too "scattered like a covey of quail taking flight" (I love that!).

And never drilled a hole and fished frown

My Nephew has all the gear and offered to come out, and he weighs about 350 (I'm at 170), so I guess if he feels safe, I will too,,,,,, from a distance grin .

It's thin spots that worry me even though I have no inflow or outflow (or spring), and not that I want to fall in 4-5' of water, but the area I'll be working at drops off quickly to the 9-10' depth.

I just need to learn more about ice and build up some confidence about being on it.
Posted By: Sue Cruz Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 05:59 PM
Just don't get out there with your aeration system running! Please!!
I want to try ice fishing too!! I'd probably freeze my FL Butt off, but it's on the list.
Posted By: esshup Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 06:00 PM
In retrospect, it was kinda comical. Not a word was said, but once the auger went thru the ice we both moved in unison in opposite directions, but we both moved towards shore at the same time.

The other scarey thing was it happened after dark, and nobody else was home - just him and me. Neither of us had picks around our necks either.

Another thing to think about, if you are walking on the ice carrying an auger or spud bar, keeping it horizontal to the ice (rather than vertical) might stop you from going under the ice if you break through the ice. You'll go down, but the auger will catch (hopefully).

I've been thru the ice 3x, but luckily I haven't ever had to climb back up on top of the ice to get out, I've been close enough to shore that I could walk/crawl out after breaking more ice.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 06:10 PM
Originally Posted By: Sue Cruz
Just don't get out there with your aeration system running! Please!!
I want to try ice fishing too!! I'd probably freeze my FL Butt off, but it's on the list.


Oh now Sue now you sound like you're from Florida. Oh wait you are! grin
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 06:12 PM
Originally Posted By: esshup
In retrospect, it was kinda comical. Not a word was said, but once the auger went thru the ice we both moved in unison in opposite directions, but we both moved towards shore at the same time.

The other scarey thing was it happened after dark, and nobody else was home - just him and me. Neither of us had picks around our necks either.

Another thing to think about if you are walking on the ice carrying an auger or spud bar, keeping it horizontal to the ice (rather than vertical) might stop you from going under the ice if you break through the ice. You'll go down, but the auger will catch (hopefully).

I've been thru the ice 3x, but luckily I haven't ever had to climb back up on top of the ice to get out, I've been close enough to shore that I could walk/crawl out after breaking more ice.


No idea what it must be like to go through the ice. whistle
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 06:18 PM
Originally Posted By: Cecil Baird1
No idea what it must be like to go through the ice. whistle


Cecil, let's hope we can both say that many years from now and for many years to come!
Posted By: Bing Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 06:18 PM
I wouldn't go out on that pond with the aerator on if you gave me the whole BOW.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 06:19 PM
"How big are those Bluegill?? Over a pound easy....."

"How thick is that ice? Every bit of 5 inches....."

For want of an accurate measuring device, both statements are accepted at face value. And both, are often proved incorrect.

Always, always check the ice for yourself. Buy a spud bar, or make one, and use it...wear your picks also. And never become complacent about your safety. Ice conditions can be extremely variable, and change greatly over a short period of time.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 06:27 PM
Originally Posted By: Sue Cruz
Just don't get out there with your aeration system running! Please!!
I want to try ice fishing too!! I'd probably freeze my FL Butt off, but it's on the list.

Sue, the diffusers will stay off until I'm done!

And as far as ice fishing goes, it's not actually on my list. As much as people enjoy doing it, I've always felt there's other ways to enjoy the winter than sitting on a block of ice hoping for a bite.

With no disrespect intended as I have nothing against those who enjoy sitting on a big bowl of "snap, crackle, pop" crazy

And thank you all for your input and concern!
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 06:40 PM
Originally Posted By: Bing
I wouldn't go out on that pond with the aerator on if you gave me the whole BOW.


I know we should all be careful with ice but with experience and thoughtful checking I've never had any dangerous issues with running a diffuser in my ponds in the winter. Granted I do move a diffuser close to shore and back off on the air flow by changing out to a smaller compressor.

Yes i've gone through the ice a couple of times but only once in my pond and that had nothing to do with the diffuser. I poked my foot into suspicious hole while standing on the pier and lost my balance.

In really cold weather after careful checking I've actually stood almost adjacent to diffuser hole. The ice was fairly thick right up to the hole.

For those of you that don't get on ice it can be as safe as standing on concrete if it's good quality ice and thick enough. Even if you did go through if the ice, and the ice is not glass smooth (which it rarely is) it's relatively easy to get out if you roll out on your back. Going through is not an automatic death sentence like many of you southern folks think. ;-)In fact I've buddies laugh so hard when another fishing buddy goes through help is a littke delayed.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 06:42 PM
Ice fishing is flat out awesome. And with the incorporation of today's modern electronics, it's a whole nother' ballgame from what it was even 15-20 years ago.

The image a lot of folks have, of the guy perched on a bucket,leaning over a hole while snow blows down his collar, is no longer an absolute....sure, those guys are still out there, I've fished that way myself. But it was by choice, not necessity. One man flip over shelters, razor sharp augers, high tech sonar, underwater cameras, and the amazing improvements in cold weather clothing have brought the run and gun style of open water anglers, right to the ice.
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 06:47 PM
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Ice fishing is flat out awesome. And with the incorporation of today's modern electronics, it's a whole nother' ballgame from what it was even 15-20 years ago.

The image a lot of folks have, of the guy perched on a bucket,leaning over a hole while snow blows down his collar, is no longer an absolute....sure, those guys are still out there, I've fished that way myself. But it was by choice, not necessity. One man flip over shelters, razor sharp augers, high tech sonar, underwater cameras, and the amazing improvements in cold weather clothing have brought the run and gun style of open water anglers, right to the ice.


Right on! It's so effective and addicting I know guys that only icefish and forego open water fishing!

There is no reason to be cold with today's winter wear and it can actually get so cozy in a pop up with only a lantern for heat you have to shed your jacket!
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 07:23 PM
Great advice here, and I'm not trying to discount the need to be prudent, but I agree with Cecil and think you're ok on the ice with aeration going provided you're conscious of the diameter of the spread. I fish on my pond now and my well is going - it's a small open area and the ice gradually thickens as you get further away. In a few feet it's back to 4-6" and good clear ice.

Since you're only going out a few feet to clear brush, you're only going to be in 2-3' water if you take a bath - right? Stand up, get in truck, fix cocktail, post photos and have a good laugh.

I thought you were going ice fishing with aeration going...that's why I recommended the rope, etc. I still think you can go fishing, just be careful and read the ice for springs, etc. If you need help just ask, I can help you scout the ice and tie off so you get a better picture of how your BOW behaves in winter. It will likely be the same scenario every year so you know the areas to avoid, etc. Mine is the same every year - two spots of concern with springs that are always about 25% less ice. Etched into my memory.



Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 07:49 PM
Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
Since you're only going out a few feet to clear brush, you're only going to be in 2-3' water if you take a bath - right? Stand up, get in truck, fix cocktail, post photos and have a good laugh.

Herein lies my fear/concern; 2' off the bank of the dam and I'm in 9' of water, it drops straight down!

The cocktail is needed just to build up the courage to do it grin
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 07:59 PM
Could you rent/borrow a pole saw and cut the trees from the topside, then hook them with a rope or cable and drag em' up?
Posted By: teehjaeh57 Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 08:02 PM
LOL, so easy to wait until Spring, but this guy has cabin fever! Creating projects to do - me too.

Start ice fishing, you'll forget all about the brush - this will be our best ice season over the past several years.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 08:44 PM
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Could you rent/borrow a pole saw and cut the trees from the topside, then hook them with a rope or cable and drag em' up?


Sprk, I do have a gas powered pole saw (I'm a project and powertool junkie) and along with a brush-grubber chain (which I don't have), rope and/or hook, they all would work well,,, for the most part.

Starting top-side maybe I'll be able to access more than I think near the water but there's quite a bit of rooted brush just above the waterline.

Originally Posted By: teehjaeh57
LOL, so easy to wait until Spring, but this guy has cabin fever! Creating projects to do - me too.

Start ice fishing, you'll forget all about the brush - this will be our best ice season over the past several years.

It's not so much cabin fever as it is keeping the debris from falling in the pond. Believe me, I have plenty of projects that DON'T require being in bitterly cold weather. I just built and replaced 2 barn doors and have a floor-pan to replace in a buddy's '91 Dodge Ram (I'm a former body-man as well), among others on the list. But these jobs can be done in the shed, out of that bitter cold!




And as far as ice fishing goes;


I think I could learn to like it cool
Posted By: Dwight Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/11/13 11:42 PM
Originally Posted By: Sue Cruz
Just don't get out there with your aeration system running! Please!!
I want to try ice fishing too!! I'd probably freeze my FL Butt off, but it's on the list.

Barefoot-bikini ice fishing in -20 F weather is only fun for a minute.

Sarah (the famous one from Canada) tried it. Blair dragged her back to his hut and warmed her back to life.

Though they have been happily married for many years, there are times when Sarah secretly wonders if her decision making may have been affected by being so very very cold......
Posted By: Cecil Baird1 Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 12:39 AM





Back in my younger days I'd say, "Ladies you can come in and get warm now if you take off the bikinis. Otherwise the door stays closed." You know they've give in eventually. smirk
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 12:51 AM
My experiences agree well with Cecil's experiences in frozen ponds. Get yourself a good sharp ice spud or ice auger to rapidly check thickness - the auger is best and fastest. Once you have been on the ice for several winters you will learn how ice forms and what kind of temperatures for how long it will take to make good solid ice on your pond. Newly formed ice 2"-3" thick with snow on top is much less strong due to the weight of the snow on top of the ice. Thick 3"-6" of snow on the 3"-4" of ice will cause water to seep through ice cracks and make snow wet and soggy under the top dry snow layer. Thick snow drifts along the edges can keep ice thinner in these areas under the drifts.
Posted By: Bob-O Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 01:16 AM
If yer gonna go out on thin ice ya might as well dance!
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 01:28 AM
Thanks, Bill and to everyone else for all the input and great info, with many variables to consider when getting on the ice.

It's a very light snow we got on Sunday with 2-4" currently on the ice, which should be at least 3-5" thick.

I'm taking the day off tomorrow (heat-wave of 32 degrees) to get my barn doors hung and get started on some dam cleaning so we'll see how it goes.

Thanks again PBF!

Keith
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 04:45 PM
If and when you get out on the ice come back and tell us your experiences including the ice thickness. I would restrict my ice walking to the farthest areas away from the aerator open water area. That path should have the most ice thickness on the pond considering how much cold temps have made ice. There should be no problem walking from your dock to the area you want to trim brush. Check the initial ice thickness about 3 to 6 ft off shore or at the end of your dock. I would wait until the ice is 5"-6" thick before going over and cutting brush. Once you know that ice thickness the ice should be uniform thickness clear over to the area where you want to cut brush. I and those following this topic are curious as to how correct I am.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 05:02 PM
We'll do, Bill!

The diffusers have been shut down since 12-1 so I've had no open water for some time, but I'm wanting to get one open due to snow cover which was the initial reason for the post. Water moving under ice just doesn't sound safe!

I was just out there with a 1" spade bit (no auger), drilled down 4 1/2" and didn't hit water. I'm going back out with a long boring bit so I can hit water and get a thickness. At this point I'm thinking at least 5-6" but I'll certainly report back.

Thanks again!

Keith
Keith, when you do turn the aeration system on consider drilling a hole in the ice anywhere close to the diffuser you are going to power up. This will do a few things. It will control where the bubbles run to prior to it blowing a hole in the ice which means you can have "trails" of thin ice anywhere on the pond prior to creating an open area.If you have a soil pond bank vs a stone apron you may just lift the ice in the diffuser area until the ice breaks if the ice has formed a seal. This is what happens with Blairs and a 4-6 inch hole prior to aeration prevents this,or think of it as venting off the air you are going to be pumping in. With a stone apron the bubbles normally trail and break the weak rock seal easily vs a soil seal.Figure a maximum of 12-24 hours for your aeration to open up a sizable area.Try to keep your open water minimal perhaps 10-20% of your total surface acreage.I only aerate long enough to blow water on the surface to melt off snow on 10-20% of the surface and always seem to keep the DO 90% plus saturation even in the high organic pond. Recently added 250 RT so will do a lot of monitoring this winter.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 06:39 PM
Sing with me now (to the tune of "If I had a hammer"):

If I had an auger
I'd auger on the West side
I'd auger on the East side
all over this poooond
I'd be hammerin' out Bluegill
I'd be hammerin' out Wiper
Maybe catch me some Large Mouth
All over this pond

Ok, I'll take back anything I said about sitting on a block of ice waiting for a bite!

It's only 26 degrees out but the sun is shining, there's no wind, and after drilling a dozen 3/4" holes, I so badly wanted to drop in a line! ARGH cry

Back to the ice issue:
No more than 4 1/2" and no less than 3" pretty much all over. So as far as clearing off the dam, I'll still wait until I have someone here with me but I feel pretty safe for the 2-3' off the shore I'd be working at. I'm also heading back out once my phone recharges with a shovel to clear some snow off the ice. The ice was smooth and very clear and could see the bottom of the tape to about 16-18".


And here's why I want to clear the face of the dam
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 06:53 PM
Originally Posted By: Ted Lea FOREVERGREEN
Keith, when you do turn the aeration system on consider drilling a hole in the ice anywhere close to the diffuser you are going to power up. This will do a few things. It will control where the bubbles run to prior to it blowing a hole in the ice which means you can have "trails" of thin ice anywhere on the pond prior to creating an open area.If you have a soil pond bank vs a stone apron you may just lift the ice in the diffuser area until the ice breaks if the ice has formed a seal. This is what happens with Blairs and a 4-6 inch hole prior to aeration prevents this,or think of it as venting off the air you are going to be pumping in. With a stone apron the bubbles normally trail and break the weak rock seal easily vs a soil seal.Figure a maximum of 12-24 hours for your aeration to open up a sizable area.Try to keep your open water minimal perhaps 10-20% of your total surface acreage.I only aerate long enough to blow water on the surface to melt off snow on 10-20% of the surface and always seem to keep the DO 90% plus saturation even in the high organic pond. Recently added 250 RT so will do a lot of monitoring this winter.


Makes perfectly good sense, Ted! Which is why I never would have thought of that!

Not having an auger (yet), I'll drill many 3/4" holes above the diffuser.

Thanks again!
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 06:55 PM
From the look of your photo, I would grab the Echo brushcutter and get right in that stuff's face....topside for the most part, with a step or two on the edge of the ice.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 07:16 PM
I love the idea, Tony but I don't have an Echo Brushcutter, I have a DR All Terrain mower, and I've cleared as much as I could topside. Oh, and I lost reverse on the DR Mower so that has limited it's use just a little frown

Here's a picture topside and I don't know if you can tell, but it's pretty much vertical once I get to the edge, so I think it's going to be the Echo chainsaw and pole-saw that's going to do much of the work.


Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 07:27 PM
from the picture you can see that the bank is steep where the brush is. Ted provides great advice for starting up an aerator when ice has formed over the entire pond. I also cut a hole as a vent above the diffuser to let air escape from under the ice. I have a float on my diffusers so I know where they are accurately below the ice. IMO 4.5" of good clear ice will easily hold you up while you cut brush unless you weigh as much as a lawn tractor.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 07:38 PM
Question #1... How far is it from the top of the dam to the water? How much freeboard are you clearing?

#2....Any possibility of burning off that little stuff, so you can see what needs to be cut off at the base?

Observation.....Buy a brushcutter, son! This is your perfect opportunity for another tool purchase. Equip it with a tri-blade, and get after it. I can reach 4' with mine, but can't tell if that would be enough for all of what you have...I know it would get a lot of it, and you would be amazed at how quick it is.

I have a DR brushcutter also, but for this kind of work the hand-held unit has it beat all to pieces. As I tell those who ask: This kind of job won't get done without losing copious amounts of blood or sweat. Oftentimes it's both.
Posted By: lassig Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 07:39 PM
On the bigger trees/shrubs (anything woody) I would apply TORDON RTU to the fresh cut. This will kill the roots so they never come back.
Posted By: esshup Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 07:39 PM
75% diesel, 25% gasoline in a pump up sprayer. Windless or low wind day. Soak a small area, light. Keep fire going with the sprayer set on stream if the fire starts to die down. Spray at base of brush/weeds to ensure flames get all the way to the base. That mix is enough to easily light, but not as fast burning (or explosive) as straight gasoline. Keep refilling the pump up sprayer as often as required. If fire doesn't seem hot enough, it can be sprayed at the base of the fire to increase temp without it wanting to climb back up the stream to the sprayer.

Had a pond bank that was covered with small river birch trees, 2'-4' tall. Cutting them all off and spraying the cut stumps with Tordon RTU was a PITA. Burning them seemed to do the trick - no sprouts the following year.
Posted By: lassig Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 09:19 PM
Scott,

I like your method better, who doesn't like to play with fire.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/12/13 09:30 PM
Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Question #1... How far is it from the top of the dam to the water? How much freeboard are you clearing?

#2....Any possibility of burning off that little stuff, so you can see what needs to be cut off at the base?

Observation.....Buy a brushcutter, son! This is your perfect opportunity for another tool purchase. Equip it with a tri-blade, and get after it. I can reach 4' with mine, but can't tell if that would be enough for all of what you have...I know it would get a lot of it, and you would be amazed at how quick it is.

I have a DR brushcutter also, but for this kind of work the hand-held unit has it beat all to pieces. As I tell those who ask: This kind of job won't get done without losing copious amounts of blood or sweat. Oftentimes it's both.

Originally Posted By: esshup
75% diesel, 25% gasoline in a pump up sprayer. Windless or low wind day. Soak a small area, light. Keep fire going with the sprayer set on stream if the fire starts to die down. Spray at base of brush/weeds to ensure flames get all the way to the base. That mix is enough to easily light, but not as fast burning (or explosive) as straight gasoline. Keep refilling the pump up sprayer as often as required. If fire doesn't seem hot enough, it can be sprayed at the base of the fire to increase temp without it wanting to climb back up the stream to the sprayer.

Had a pond bank that was covered with small river birch trees, 2'-4' tall. Cutting them all off and spraying the cut stumps with Tordon RTU was a PITA. Burning them seemed to do the trick - no sprouts the following year.


Ok, that's it, moderate me if you must but this is just plain good $hit! laugh

Another donation just posted!

Sprk, question #1; 5' - And I want to clear it all, but on the same hand I need to have some type of grass planted to prevent erosion.
Question #2; ABSOLUTELY!!!

Esshup, you didn't even give me time to ask how I would go about doing that! But on the pump-up sprayer, would I need one designed for flammables? I just have my 3g plastic tank sprayer and I'm guessing the petrol wouldn't be too good on it? (I hope that's not too dumb of a question)

You guys are awesome!!!! Something I never would have thought of, makes perfectly good sense, saves all that "little stuff" from getting in the chain, and a very safe place to do it!

STOKED! grin grin grin


Originally Posted By: sprkplug
Observation.....Buy a brushcutter, son! This is your perfect opportunity for another tool purchase.

LMAO - To see if I can justify it (yeah right) my air compressor took a crap and I'm lost without it, but with the price of a new one I'm going to attempt to rebuild the old one. So with the money I'll save by rebuilding, maybe I can look into the brushcutter whistle

I'm having such an awesome day off and believe it or not I'm getting a lot done, including getting the new barn doors hung. (but, if I would have had an ice auger,,,,,,)

Thank you, everyone for all the input, ideas, and safety concerns.

I'll say it again; PB ROCKS!

Keith




Posted By: esshup Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/13/13 05:28 PM
I've used the standard white/cream colored pump up sprayers from any of the big box stores. I usually forget to completely empty them out and run RV anti-freeze through at least a few of them every year, and the plastic handles freeze and crack.

I can't say that I've had one fail because of the fuel run through them.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/13/13 06:44 PM
Very good, thank you!

You guys brought up the burning idea after I was having unpleasant thoughts about standing on ice with a running chainsaw crazy

So Sunday's the burn day with the temps at 38 with 7 mph winds.

And since I tend to live by Murphy's law, I may need to have the camera nearby wink

Thanks again!
Posted By: animal Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/13/13 07:03 PM
I agree with the brush cutter. That 3 blade does wonders. I cleared some thick trees 3" out with one. Just keep on the gas and go for it.

I was leery when I bought mine, but it is well worth it. Plus in your case you don't have to have ice to clear it out.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/13/13 07:10 PM
Oh by the way, if you decide on the brushcutter, get yourself a full face shield also. You'll thank me the first time you use it.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/13/13 07:27 PM
We'll do, thanks!

I have an extra 2 1/2 mouths to feed right now so it may have to be a Spring consideration, but I would certainly get good use of one!

I do have a follow-up question on the burning of the brush though.

If I use the diesel/gas mixture for burning, will that doom the soil for getting some type of grass planted there in the spring? I'm just wondering what's going to keep the bank from eroding if I burn everything out. Rock or concrete slabs would be awesome but that option won't be in the cards (or wallet).

Thanks
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/13/13 08:02 PM
I doubt you will see any long term effects. I'll bet grass grows back just fine this spring.
Posted By: esshup Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/13/13 10:56 PM
Just like burning any CRP field. Grass will grow just fine. I've had no problem with getting seeds to germinate providing they are lightly covered with soil and not allowed to dry out once the ground temp is correct for germination.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/13/13 11:13 PM
Very good, thank you both again and have a great weekend!
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/15/13 11:49 PM
Burning the dam grass worked great and I couldn't be more pleased with the results!







Many thanks once again as it'll be so much easier now to remove all the rest.

And I got to play with fire on a cool winter day wink

PB Rocks!
Posted By: liquidsquid Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/16/13 03:28 PM
Oh, I was thinking if you want to work from the ice, you can lay down some 4x8 foot sheets of plywood to help distribute weight in your working area. That will prevent you from falling through weak spots, and with ice underneath it will likely give you enough time to run off and with grip long before water becomes too deep. Another thought is some good snow shoes to distribute weight, though they would make getting back out rather difficult if you did fall through.

Example, I will go across a pond on x-country skis on some pretty thin ice that I would NEVER do on foot. An inch is enough with black ice, though I would prefer 2. On foot or skates, I prefer 4 or more inches.

Be safe!
Oh, and if you ever do fall through and get wet, strip naked and run for the nearest warm spot! Your wet cloths are your worst enemy. I think you may leave your underpants on but it may be a while before the jewels make an appearance again.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/16/13 04:34 PM
Awesome pyro work......looks a little bit easier to tame now!
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/29/13 03:47 AM
Took advantage of a nice day to get the rest of the dam bushes and dam brush cut down.

This is what it looked like Before


And after burning the grass (Thanks Esshup and Sprkplg!)


All cleaned up!


Once it becomes a little safer to get on the ice I'll share some photos of the critter holes I found,,, wow!
Posted By: JKB Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/29/13 04:16 AM
Really nice LL - Glad to see you back on your feet.
Posted By: sprkplug Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/29/13 04:30 AM
Looks good!
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/29/13 04:53 AM
Thanks JKB, not yet 100% and I paid for it all day but it was so worth it!

Much more, and better fishing possibilities and much less chance for critter damage!

I'll rest tomorrow since the arctic front will be here. From 50 today to 18 tomorrow cry
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/29/13 03:19 PM
Thanks Sprk!

While working on the dam I saw two BG frozen in the ice (one on each end of the dam) and they appeared to be healthy. With the ice not being safe I wasn't able to check the rest of the pond but that certainly was not a good sign! Both were above the deepest areas of the pond, if that means anything.

There's no vegetation in the pond to speak of (just plankton) and I got one of my diffusers to open some water and let it run about 15 minutes, then 30 minutes today, etc., until I get to 24/7.

I saw Jdfarmer was having similar concerns on another thread where it may be due to his well-water or maybe the bubbler bringing up gases. This is why the slow start-up for me on this old, nutrient-rich pond.

My goal is to keep some water open from now on and I sure hope I haven't lost many fish!

Having only one diffuser running, would there be any harm in running 2 (of 4 total)? Both are in about 4' of water on opposite ends of the pond.
Posted By: Bill Cody Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/29/13 07:39 PM
You can run two diffusers. Two will expand the area of open water and increase the size or volume of good water quality.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/30/13 01:59 AM
Thanks Bill!

The way it sounds, I could probably have 3 of the 4 running since they're all in less than 5' of water and just leave the deep one off.
Keith, this is a case where the lifting ability needs to be considered if water temperature is a concern. You are already lifting approx 4000 gpm (5.7 million per day) with the one Vertex Shallow Water station based on 3.5 - 4 cfm to that station.If you want to run a second one at the opposite end do so ( personally I wouldnt) but I would monitor temps in the deeper water (probably not practical or safe) and if you run all 3 shallow stations you will pull your warmer water out of the deeper area (with your Air 3 PLUS System) If you were using stations that had larger bubbles or had considerable less lifting capacity I would say have at it.Consider running the second station to keep ice :snow free: and the other one for open water.Just my 2 cents.
Posted By: Lovnlivin Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 12/30/13 03:36 PM
Ted, great explanation and description, thank you!

My "deep" end, is basically a channel running the length of the dam, 9' deep and about 10' wide at the bottom, drops off quickly from the dam and ascending more dradually away from the dam. About 30' out it gets to about 5' for the remaining BOW. The dam to the opposite shoreline is approximately 220'.

From where the shallow diffusers are located, I didn't think the warmer water at the 9' depth would be effected by the "lifting", but I also don't want to take that chance.

I'm already concerned about the trade-off of open water due to the geese (neighbors pond has hundreds on it, day and night!), so I will have only the two open at opposite ends and call it good.

I always appreciate your "2 cents", Ted!

Thanks again!
Posted By: snrub Re: Winter aeration and ice integrity - 01/02/14 01:37 AM
Nice job.

Reminds me of some ponds I have that have dams that look like that (they are much smaller ponds though). I have ponds scattered around on different farmsteads that I almost forgot I had. They have basically been abandoned for years. Farms that used to have a house and some cattle that are all now long gone. But the ponds remain.

After building our new pond and stocking it, renovating an old cow pond on our home place, renovating my sons pond on his place, and about half way through renovation on my daughters pond, I guess a person could say I have been on a pond renovation kick. Why stop now?

What you have done with this dam gives me the itch next spring to tackle some of the other old, neglected ponds on various farmsteads of old, and see what I can do with them.

Thanks for the thread, pictures, and inspiration.
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