I have a 5 acre 37'deep pond (oval shaped, shallow at both ends, steep shoreline at sides)that I stocked with 75-2" to 4" LMB a few years ago. They survived through that winter and were 10" by the next July. Put in 50 more but never saw them again.(winter kill?).Close to sustaining LMB? Would a windmill aeration system help? If so, how deep should the diffuser go? My property has no electricity and is in the Bancroft area of Ontario, Canada. Lots of ice and snow. Any suggestions welcome.

Hey, Buffer, welcome to Pond Boss! Glad you found us and posted.

I'm not an aeration expert by any means, but from reading here, it seems a windmill powered aerator entails a lot of different considerations. The biggest factor is how exposed your pond is to wind such that the windmill would function. There have been a lot of mixed views on windmill aerators, so you'll probably get a lot of different feedback on this question.

Given your depths and the size of the pond, it seems winterkill would be a bit less likely to occur, but in Canada you certainly can have some long, cold winters. Tell us about the length of your ice season, how often the ice is snow covered, and what sort of vegetation you have in the pond. In the end, aeration may or may not be a big factor for you, though I don't think anyone would disagree that properly managed aeration will generally do nothing but improve water quality.

Again, welcome! Sit tight for some more meaningful input!

Hi Buffer ~
I agree with Todd ~ I think your pond is too deep to experience a winter fishkill. I also don't think a windmill would be of much benefit. Windmills struggle to keep ice open in the extreme cold, and even for summer aeration you would definately need more than one windmill. I am definately not a stocking expert, but I imagine they are still alive in your pond, it's just that you have a big deep pond.

Buffer, Sue is one of our resident aeration experts, so take her thoughts seriously. She definitely knows what she's talking about when it comes to aeration.

Sue also makes a great point about the size of your pond being a very likely reason you're not seeing too many fish - that's a lot of water and they may well be somewhere other than where you're looking, just hanging out, eating, and turning into hawgs!

Buffer:

Welcome to PB! What are the other types (and sizes) of fish that are in the pond?

I agree with that size of a pond you may not run into them for awhile. Heck I only have a 1 acre pond and I swear sometimes all my fish are gone!!! I bet they are there. Your ice will get about 3 feet thick max I would think. Have you ever test your ice thickness? Either way it won't get thick enough for a 37 foot deep pond. I lived in far Northern Wisconsin for many years and did my fair share of ice fishing and most of the lakes we went on were about 2 feet thick or so. So with your pond being 37 feet deep you shouldn't have a problem with winter kill. Maybe Otters? or Beavers??? Birds??? But I don't think winter kill would do it.

Course I am assuming you don't have any large N. Pike in there or Musky???

Thanks for the replies. I'll try and answer as many questions as I can. East 1/4 of pond has what I would call cabbage weed starting from about 10' depth to the east shore. West 1/4 of pond starts at a sharp drop off from deep water to about 16"-Lots of lilly pads and stinking muck that bubbles off gas especially when disturbed. Some years first ice is early Nov. and ice out middle April or later. Yes, enough ice that your kneeling to finish drilling a hole with hand auger. Usually snow covered the majority of winter, 1' to 2' and more. There are tons of minnows.(Chub,Northern Redbellied Dace and some small suckers that have been found in my minnow trap) As for wind exposure there is a spot close, where there would be North,East and West wind. I used a simple O2 test kit(accuracy questionable, but repeatable trends) through the winter the bass survived and the next one. Have numbers if wanted.

Buffer welcome to the forum it is a great place to learn. You should post what your D02 levels were just for interest sakes. How old is your pond and how was it made. natural or a gravel pit? I would buy a windmill (I just did actually) There is alot of info on here about winter aeration. I think placing your diffuser in 15-20 feet or so would be ideal. I think the rule of thumb is to place diffuser at 2/3 of the pond depth for winter aeration. Oh yah I want to see some pictures we like pictures!!!!

I'll see if I can get a friend to make a digital chart of my DO2 levels next week. As for a photo, I have not tried to figure how to post a photo yet, but will soon. Before we bought the property I contacted the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources to get the oldest arial (sp?) photo and the most recent one. The oldest was in 1957 and the most recent 1987, both showed the pond as being about the same size.

Buffer - I never say never when dealing with pond problems. Your situation is more complex than most. Your pond could winterkill given the right or wrong conditions. Firstly, does the pond have tannin stained water? This reduces overall productivity, affects phytoplankton quality and natural oxygenation. Is the water clear even with some stain or is it fairly turbid? do you have any water clarity measurements? High amounts of organics (submerged vegetation, tree leaves?) in a real old pond with quite a bit of noxious, anoxic decompostional gasses, water clarity, an incomplete destratification in late fall and lack of sunlight from late Nov to April, could all combine into a winterkill. Some small deep ponds are not holomictic (complete circulation), nor dimitic(bi-annual mixing). Late fall and/or winter plankton blooms could also play a role here. Stratification cycle of your pond is important to know. Does the pond get enough winter winds to blow large patches of snow off the ice? Depth is not the main factor for preventing winterkill, although it does play a very important role.

I will assume that you do not live at the pond. Regular snow removal will pretty much eliminate the chance of winterkill in your far north, deep pond. A few of our members from north central Canada regularly remove lots of snow from their ponds in winter with up to 36" of ice and fish (trout, etc) survive winter okay.

IMO your pond is too large for one windmill to be real effective at preventing winterkill, although if the conditions are marginal a windmill might help prevent or reduce a mild winterkill. Not all winters are alike. Definately two windmills would be better than one in a large 5 ac pond. At this point I am not positive about placement of the diffusers of 1 or 2 windmills. It would depend on the style of windmill and stratification features of the pond. Some windmills produce more air volume and better pressure than others. If your pond is truly 37 ft deep by recent actual measurement, then it will require 18-20 psi to release air at that depth. A real challenge for any windmill. It takes a pretty strong wind for a windmill to generate 18-20 psi. A light or moderate wind speed will definately not do it, thus your bubbling and mixing times will be noticably reduced compared to a windmill 'working' in a shallow (8-13ft deep) pond.

Presence of chubs and suckers suggest that the pond has a small feeder stream? Suckers and chubs normally will not spawn successfully in 'true' pond conditions, i.e. no moving water. I assume you can tell the difference between bluntnose minnows and suckers; both look quite similar. bluntnose and redbelly dace spawn in ponds. Maybe some close-up photos of the small fish next summer? Given perfect conditions creek chubs could spawn in ponds but it would be extremely rare. Most chub species spawn in similar conditions to trout utilizing redds in stream beds.

This link to our Achives may provide helpful info for posting pictures. Ask if you have questions or problems with this. I am not a 'big' picture poster, but there are numerous others here that can provide lots of good advice.
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92443#Post92443

Here is a rough graph of my oxygen measurements, hopefully this works. Will have more to say and show later. Buffer

The minimum DO for many of the sport fish is around or close to 3ppm (mg/L). The graph nicely shows that when the DO dropped into the 3ppm zone and lower, the bass did not survive. Some of the bass and other fish could have survived until the DO was in the 2+ppm range.
For those interested, keep in mind that the DO loss normally begins at the bottom and 'works its way' toward the surface. I assume the measurements for the data in the graph above were made fairly close to the surface. Depending on features on top and under the ice DO in all the water may not decrease evenly throughout the pond. There may be small zones or pockets where DO is lower or slightly higher.

Yes, the pond has stained water. You can see down about 3 feet but not much beyond. Have not used a secchi disc yet to measure. Sometimes the pond is blown clear of snow, but I'm not there alot in the winter although I was there this past weekend. It's a 2.5 hr drive from home.

There was 8 to 12" of ice and about a foot of snow. Here is a photo of a minnow I've had at home that is from the pond.

I didn't know that DO loss began at the bottom, but it makes sense. Yes, the water samples were taken near the surface, as far down as I could reach under the ice.

There is a small feeder stream that runs year round although rather limited in a hot dry summer. I just keep thinking that if I were to install a windmill the pond might be able to bank enough DO to get past the Feb. crash. Buffer

Do your remember roughly how much snow was on the ice during the 2 yrs graphed above. Have you ever tried putting a Ice fishing camera down to see if there is any sign of life.

If it was me I would spend the money on a windmill but I am not an expert.

Buffer, have you contacted Canadianpond.ca yet, if not touch base with Mario. I would consider a windmill that will produce the highest amount of cfm available.Place a pair of high volume air stations in 10-15 ft of water even if you have to suspend them This will allow the system to operate at 5-7.5 psi which will only take approx 10 mph wind to start pumping.This may allow enough oxygen if and when your water is at a critical state.

Buffer - Some items:
1. For posting pictures you have everything correct except you have to make sure there is a [ preceeding the first img. I fixed both of your pics by just adding the [.
2. Your stained water acts similar to a dye, limits sunlight penetration to the phytoplankton and probably at times directly or indirectly depending on circumstances contributes to eventual low DO.
3. Ted Lea provides good advice. The action of a windmill will definately help but it may not prevent all winterkills depending on severity of the winter. Completeness of fall turnover (destratification) will also affect the pond's overall DO 'bank account' going into winter. Ted's advice is a good way to begin with placement of diffusers for aeration. Be advised that coming out of winter the pond will probably be stratified at just below the depth of the diffusers. The unmixed deep zone anoxic water always contains no DO and hydrogen sulfide (H2S) gas which is very poisonous to fish. When a spring turnover occurs the unmixed anoxic deep water layer will be mixed into the upper oxygenated layer where the fish are inhabiting. If conditions are 'wrong' some sort of fish kill may still occur even with windmill aeration, but IMO your fish kills should be fewer! Numerous variables 'come into play' during this process. This H2S laden water is normally diluted and degassed when it comes to the surface.
4. The fish in your picture is a creek chub. Good picture by the way. The scales,lateral line, finage, mouth shape, and coloration all show up nicely. As I suspected, they are spawning in the feeder stream and migrating to the pond. Creek chubs, even fairly large ones, are a good soft rayed, fusiform shaped, forage fish, although the adults are competetors to smaller sportfish by feed heavily on invertebrates and newly hatched fish. You probably do have some suckers in the pond. They are also spawning and migrating in from the creek. Logs of minnows from the feeder stream will surive and some reproduce well in the pond. The stream serves as a supplier of forage species. Consider stocking some yellow perch (YP)to utilize the forage fish. They tolerate lower DO than the LMB. If you restock bass consider using smallmouth bass. Even if it is only a few adults from a local BOW. Their first spawn will quickly populate the pond and they 'work' better than LMB when using YP. LMB and SMB are not very compatable. LMB always win. So if all the LMB winterkill try restocking some smallies & YP.
5. Keep us posted on your progress.

Thanks everyone for your input. I am now in the market for a windmill but am unsure whether to go Koenders or OWS. As of now at least, OWS has sent me the info I requested, but Koenders has just referred me to a dealer in Ontario, that has not. What are the pros and cons of these systems. Any info welcome, Thanks

Here's another North of the Border Supplier
http://www.superiorwindmill.com/products/turbojetstream.html

Buffer, there are several good mill producers however some of them need to improve in their diffuser technology.In your search consider also questioning the "Lifting Rate" of the dffusers. If you can not obtain the independent lifting data you may want to search for seperate diffusers for your project. I would search for high volume diffusers that can lift no less that 3200 gpm @ 10 ft depth or 4500 gpm @ 16 ft @ 2 cfm. If you can locate a mill that produces at least 4 plus cfm at 10-15 psi or less that may be a contender.The weak link in many windmills today seems to be diffusers. Hopefully manufacturers in the near future will discover this shortfall.

I think Ted has a good idea. Mix and match for the best performance.

I've ordered the windmill, (OWS, 24',traditional tower,powder coated Forest Green, with a freeze control system). Now, I will have a look at the diffusers as you say.

What are the cfm specs of your mill and "congrats"

3.0 – 4.5 CFM with up to 30 PSI but I'm sure the quoted pressure and volumes won't be simultaneous. I'll try and find more info. Thanks,

Also find out if one exhaust port with a splitter or two independent exhaust ports.How are you planning on spacing the air stations ?

It's been over a year since my last post, so here's an update. After a summer from hell (knee operation and car accident,boat actually dented not car but is still ok,trailer got the worst of it.) I got the windmill up and operating by October. Stocked 45 LMB, 30 YP in Fall. Not much of a winter but still 20 inches of ice. Windmill opened a spot periodically about 15 feet in dia. I don''t get up there much and am still adjusting airstone depth/valve to be even.
My son and I were canoeing there this past weekend to look for any sign of the YP or LMB. To my surprise(maby horror) we saw three NP. One well over 30 inches, the other two somewhat smaller. We did not see any YP but did see 5 LMB.

The water has been very clear for about a year now (I think I had a bit of winterkill from 10/11 winter. There are very few minnows now.
I'm thinking that my problem in starting a LMB fishery has more to do with NP than winterkill. Any ideas? Please help! Thanks in advance,Phil.

Sounds like you need to do some catch and remove on the NP, or continue to stock expensive minnows for them........

Northern pike(NP) do tolerate low dissolved oxygen similar to yellow perch (YP).

Well I think the windmill might have helped, and removing about 8 NP. The biggest being 30" and 6 pounds. We were up last weekend and there are babies. Here is a link to youtube to see the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdbIAgleAEk&feature=plcp Hope it works! Still haven't seen any YP.

that is fun to see fish like that.

Baby LMB.

Long over due update: My 5 acre pond turns out to be almost 10 acres. The LMB are still reproducing, so are the NP. Removed 9 more this summer. To my surprise I caught an 18" Walleye! How it got in there, no clue. YP are doing well too. I now need to replace the diaphragm in the windmill as it ruptured late this past winter. Long story short. the OWS windmill made a huge difference in water clarity and quality. Hardly any Leeches now. Thanks for the help. Phil.

Windmill diaphragm often ruptures during winter when an ice plug forms in the airline and air pressure cannot be released. Sometimes mechanical parts will break when air pressure cannot be released.

Well your air didn't have anything to do with your leeches going away but your LMB did. They will eat them up. NP are a blast but hard to establish smaller fish once you have 30 inch NP! LOL... Good job removing them hopefully you will get a happy medium at some point! I would be VERY excited about the WE!! I wish I could have WE man they are good eating!!!!

RC

This seems real similar to my application. Similar winter conditions at least. We will see how I fare this year running one koenders and one American Eagle windmill.

I just got back from a week long fishing trip in northern Ontario Canada. Four guys fishing at least 6 hrs a day. We only caught WE,NP and SMB. Seems it is possible to have a mainly predator population. Only crayfish and young of other predators in the stomachs of the fish we cleaned. Put our minnow trap out in various areas, no minnows caught, only leeches and a couple of crayfish.

Have you taken anymore DO readings?

Buffer,
My father in law also goes to northern ontario probably close to where you went fishing. Remote lakes, hard to get to, clearly off the grid, pristine water, clear water, rocky bottoms, and he said too, it seemed only predator fish there. I couldn't imagine how they could survive without forage? he said outside of crayfish there were no minnows, no sunfish, bluegill, perch, just SMB (huge ones hanging out in the rocks) tons of pike and walleye. That is it! How does that circle of life maintain?

Also some lakes up there had lake trout that were there 'naturally' You wonder how a whole lake can have pretty much nothing but lake trout in it and yet no one put them there? It seems a single species lake has to have had some man made intervention at some point.

So those lakes don't winter kill just because of their depth? I wonder why Buffer's does then? Perhaps even those natural lakes winter kill now and then too?

I went on a moose hunt 5 years ago on the BC/Yukon line. We flew 80 miles into the bush on a float plane and fished our butts off on that trip. All the lakes we fished there had nothing but big pike and lake trout. I was told that was the ONLY fish species in those lakes and that the big lakers ate the small ones. Pretty wild.

There is a lot more to the complexity of the food web of natural lakes than almost all anglers realize. Almost always there are lots of unseen or inconspicuous food items available to grow the big fish that are present. Often the standing crop of big fish is not large. Large lake predators have large feeding territories similar to land based predators. A lake's individual fertility will only support a certain fish biomass or standing crop. This is strongly connected to carrying capacity. Another important factor when fishing remote lakes is hook smart fish. Rarely fished lakes have apparent high catch rates until the resident fish become more accustomed to lures and angling methods. Often you will hear the lake is fished out, sometimes the lakes are not fished out it is the big fish are just more hook shy in heavily fished waters!

Turns out it wasn't the diaphragm, the hose on top of the windmill had pulled out because the swivel bushing had seized. greased everything up, re-attached the hose, installed membrane diffuser, all is good now. Feeling bad about keeping the WE, might have stopped potential spawning of them.

Have you taken any more DO readings?

No I have not, good idea though. Still have the kit. Should take DO readings thru the winter with the windmill. See if there is much difference. There must be, they are surviving now. Thanks, Buffer.

Hey Buffer, fellow Ontarian here, just south of you in Port Hope. Just getting into this pond thing. We want to install a windmill at the back of our pond, do you remember where you bought yours from? We are looking into OWS. Any pros/cons since you bought it? Do you do anything special to it in the winter etc? Thanks in advance!
Jenna

Depending on how deep your water is, I would strongly consider the American Eagle.

wbuffetjr, why do you recommend the American Eagle. I'm in Canada, haven't been able to source a local distributor. OWS are available as entire kits from all our local hardware stores.

I currently have one Koenders windmill which is very similar to the OWS and one American Eagle windmill. The American Eagle truly does put out a much bigger VOLUME of air. More volume is going to move more water.
On top of that, the American Eagle is built like an absolute tank. Much Much more heavy duty. My Koenders had a failure in the very first season and had to be sent back for warranty. Tipping the tower up and down to deal with problems and maintenance is not fun, trust me. Mine failed and had to be dealt with when there was already snow on the ground.
The only draw back to the Eagle is pressure. It can only aerate down to 16' or so IIRC.

I would also say this.... If you have ANY access to electricity, just use a regular compressor. You can run air 1,000'. After spending the money on two windmills, I am putting in a solar system so I can run a regular compressor. I get a ton of wind but the windmills still aren't able to keep the pond open through my winters.

^^^ What was said above. Plus working on the windmill when it needs it will be a pain. Compressors don't fail when it's nice, calm and sunny out, and working 20' up in the air, or getting 3-4-5 guys to tip over a windmill to work on it isn't any fun.

re: Koenders. I found out earlier this year that their windmills and compressors furnish 1.1 cfm of air, and it's only the newest ones that furnish double that amount of air. Since their model numbers haven't changed, I don't know how to tell what specific compressor furnishes the greater volume of air.

I have a situation now where the client buried approximately 600' of 3/8" tubing going to his pond and he is using a Koenders EL2 electric compressor. Motor failed, I replaced the motor, having to buy one aftermarket because Koenders doesn't sell them as replacement parts. Compressor works, no air coming from diffuser. If I use a regular air compressor, and drop PSI to 5 psi, air comes out of the diffuser. ?????

I believe there is a leak somewhere in the underground line that is allowing some air to leak out, and the EL2 does not furnish enough volume of air to overcome the leak and have enough air going to the one diffuser in 5' of water to operate the diffuser. I have a feeling the shovel will be getting a lot of use in a few weeks.

Would pond dyed blue water going through the 600' of tubing help you find the leak and save some shoveling?

Esshup,

I could be wrong, but I think it is their "double diaphragm" units that make double the CFM. I have one of the double diaphragm units. It still does not make a plume any where near the size of the plume the American Eagle makes. I know that isn't very scientific and I do not have a way to measure the CFM produced by either unit, but you can clearly see a difference.


Good luck with your shoveling..... I hope you find the leak in the first foot and not the 590th foot!! lol

Thanks guys, here in ontario electricity rates are unreal. Our monthly bill is already over $700 for a 2 bedroom bungalow. geo heat, lights all led, new appliances. Our prices just suck.

My pond has an island in the middle of it. We have an electric aerator we put in once the ice is gone on the front half of the pond closest to the house. We only run it a couple hours in the evening/early morning when rates are cheapest as it pushes our bill up over $800 a month. We were told getting some aeration on the backside of the island is ideal, which is why we were looking into the windmill. We get pretty steady wind at the back and can get the entire ows system delivered from home depot for $2500. Our pond isn't deep. 15' at the deepest we've found. So any suggestions you have are welcome.

thanks,
Jenna

When I ordered my American Eagle I got free shipping. Not sure if you could get that deal or not. I cannot help but to say again that, IMO, the Eagle is a much better unit that under the same conditions will produce more air than the other unit.

Also, if you are dead set on a windmill, I would get the absolute tallest tower you can afford. They recommend nothing taller than the tower within 200 feet.

Jenna, what is the rate per kilowatt hour? I thought mine was high at $0.19/kWH

Our rates are time of use billing so they go up and down throughout the day but right now are:

8.7 (¢/kWh) 07:00 PM-07:00 AM
13.2 (¢/kWh) 11:00 AM-05:00 PM
18 (¢/kWh) 07:00 AM-11:00 AM and 05:00 PM-07:00 PM

19cents is crazy! But our biggest issue is our "fees." My March bill just came in: $320 in actual usage, $584 total bill, so $264 in delivery fees and taxes.

Our utility advertises $0.09/KWH but it jumps to $0.18/KWH with all the fees tacked on.

881 Kwh, $176.25 was the bill.

Oops, make that $0.20/Kwh now since the price increase.........