Does anyone make their own fish food? I have spent a lot of time working on food formulas for fish kept in an aquarium. I have been trying to help a friend get his pond back in good shape after years of neglect. This got me to thinking why not create a few recipes for game fish.

Gamefish Grow

Whole Menhaden Meal 7.8 oz. 44.5%
Shrimp Meal 4.8 oz. 27.4%
Wheat Flour 4.4 oz. 25.1%
Crude Menhaden Fish Oil .5 oz. 2.8%
Water 17 oz.

Mix ingredients and dehydrate.

48.4% protein, 10% fat, 19.6% starch, 3.8% fiber, 13.6% ash and 4.6% moisture

Ingredient cost for a lb about $1.20 plus dehydration cost.

I'm all about doing it yourself whenever possible, but a 50lb. bag of 41% protein Purina Aquamax is around $38 in my area. I think it would be hard to compete with that?

There are many things that the big companies can do so much better than we can as individuals. I would put fish food in that category. My garden, my chickens, and even my fish are a different story. But I couldn't do it without the help of the big researchers.

I'm not a professional, but I've attended hundreds of hours of workshops, seminars, etc., related to aquaculture and agriculture. Over the years I've had the good fortune to spend time with some of the world's top fish feed researchers. Through research grants, I've helped test and compare a number of experimental and commercial fish food formulations.

Knowing what I know now, I don't think I could come even close to producing similarly effective feeds for anywhere near the cost that the commercial producers can provide. Your estimates are based on raw materials. After you factor in the cost of the equipment, labor, transportation, storage, etc., I'm guessing you would be nearly triple the cost of the raw materials -- and the fish might not even like it. A few years back, Cargill found that after lots of research money on one of their game fish food products, they thought they might help change the industry. The problem was that the fish didn't like the product!

Maybe that is like the difference between a heritage turkey and a commercial turkey for Thanksgiving. I couldn't possibly produce turkey's for $0.79 a pound, especially if I included all my labor to make it ready for the oven.

I have no idea what my catfish and big bluegill cost per pound, but it has to compare to, or exceed, the prices for top grade commercially provided tuna, grouper, striped bass, etc. And, that is based on using good commercially produced fish feed.

Good luck,

Regards,
Ken

This does not apply to me. I simply posted a formula that can be made at home that I am confident will outperform any of the manufactured feeds as far as growth is concerned. As far as them eating the food I am assuming that pond predators just like aquarium predators (which I have done extensive testing on) will like a food compromised of 71% fish and shrimp versus a food that is primarily grain. I am not trying to sell anything, simply trying to be helpful.

I say go for it. And I agree on a fish-based feed vs. grain based. That's why a lot of folks here feed the Aquamax. Fishmeal is where it's at.

I am not well versed in commercial fish feed. The Aquamax 50% protein does look like a really good growth food. Do you happen to have your local price for the 50%?

I'm sorry I don't, as I've never fed any greater percentage than 41. Maybe someone else will weigh in with some prices?

From what I know all carnivores in the wild get around 45% - 50% protein in what they eat. I also know that at around 20% starch they pass anything past that. Protein builds and replenishes muscle and tissue. Fat and starch or sugar provide energy for growth. Fiber is passed. The protein, fat and fiber numbers add up to 70%. It takes around 15% starch to hold the food together. That puts us at 85%. Lets assume 8% ash which part of it is passed and 7% moisture moisture. This foods net energy gain is off the chart! I am guessing all but about 14% of the food is used by the fish.

Ken I stand corrected. My apologies if I came off as rude.

Aquamax 5D00, Fry Powder is the highest protein/fat food I'm aware of. I pay $42 per 50 pound bag. 5D01 is the same formula as far as I know, but is more like sand and only $38/bag.

One huge benefit with commercially produced feed, beside a much lower cost, is a "balanced" diet, which includes vital nutrients in the form of vitamins, minerals, and trace elements the fish need to remain healthy. Protein and fat is only a starting point.

Purina Aquamax is also about 98% digestible.....

One more thing to think about when feeding fish in ponds is floating food vs. sinking food. I believe floating food allows pond owners to see how much food the fish are eating and that allows them to adjust the amount of food they feed to prevent wasting feed by feeding too much.

If you are making home made feed for aquarium fish, don't be so sure your feed formula is really doing your fish any favors. In an aquarium, feed MUST supply every essential element needed for health and growth. Aquarium fish can not forage and eat incidental items that provide the trace elements, vitamins and minerals.....it is included in commercially made "Balanced Diet" feeds, as I mentioned in my earlier post. Just like feeding Big Cats in zoos only skinned meats, they often get rickets and other vitamin deficiency disorders...they need skin, bone and dirt from their kills....

I feed Cargill, and the number's and prices are about the same as AM.

I was assuming the pond fish would get enough vitamins from whatever they find to eat. Rest assured my home made fish food has adequate vitamins and minerals for aquarium fish. What I posted above was an attempt at a competitively priced pond diet intended to provide superior growth. I failed! lol

I still haven't found an ingredients list on the Aquamax 50% protein foods. I am simply curious to see how they do it.

Are we talking protein digestibility?

Does your homemade fish food float or sink?

I'm just wondering if it would be worth a persons time to make the food or not, in the quantities needed, or if it would just be something that a person would do more as a hobby.

If a person were to start from scratch that never had made fish food before, considering any equipment that needed to be purchased, any supplies that needed to be purchased, and any energy used (gas or electric), what would it take to make 50# of food ($$ and a persons time)?

Here is a label from AquaMax 600 and 500, the most commonly fed sizes of Purina Aquamax fish food.




FWIW, the last 50# bag that I purchased was $0.714 per pound, including sales tax. (it takes me 20-25 minutes each way to and from the store)

Yo Fish - Welcome to the forum, and I appreciate your efforts to be resourceful and creative. Please keep us in the loop regarding your efforts to create the food/pellet, and consider performing some performance tests VS commercial fish food. Regardless of whether your goals are to just to prove you can do it, or create a competitive product for the market, for me it doesn't matter either way. I admire your ingenuity and look forward to reports.

Total digestibility when fed an optimum amount.....Only about 2% of what goes into the front end, comes out the rear end of the fish. Overfeeding will cause more waste.

I think we all would like a competitive feed we can have quality control over, however, I seriously doubt your aquarium fish are getting all they need to grow and thrive. In a "natural" setting, the fish will ingest all manner of zooplankton and other microscopic organisms along with plant matter, soils, etc. These things contain a wide variety of nutrients, minerals and trace elements essential for health and growth that can not be replicated in an aquarium. Fat and protein are only 2 key components to growth. I wonder what the nutrient breakdown would be for all that menhaden....?

It sinks.

It would be more of a hobby as it requires your time.

You could just mix the mash and feed it like the ornamental fish farmers in southern Florida.

In the aquarium my goal is as little waste as possible as it is a fragile ecosystem. A large body of water can absorb more waste.

What I did in the recipe above is reduce waste in a pond food as cheaply as possible. It would be better to use soybean meal as a binder however it is more expensive.

Protein digestibility percentages:
Whole Menhaden Meal 93%
Shrimp Meal 86.5% average
Wheat 42%
Soybean Meal 91%

A quick look at the Aquamax ingredients:

Fish Meal - This is a parts meal meaning after salmon or catfish fillets are removed the remainder is cooked and ground into a meal. This meal has a high ash content since a good portion of what is used is bones.

Poultry by product meal - Warm blooded creatures make poor fish food. Fish are not made to process warm blooded creatures.

Soybean Meal - Quality protein and starch (energy) binder

Corn and wheat - starch binders

Soybean Oil - This doesn't make sense to me. Vegetable oil is far inferior to fish oil in fat quality.

Pork Blood Meal - Warm blooded creatures make poor fish food.

Fish Oil - Very Good.

The question is does feeding a quality mash produce the added weight desired to offset the increased cost.

No offense but there is no way that fish pass only 2% of your food.

Are you 100% sure about the fish not able to process warm blooded animal thing?



I believe if that was the case, then the fish would die because any warm blooded animal would create a blockage in the digestive tract, much like a rubber worm would.

I didn't say they couldn't get any use from warm blooded creatures. All fish are opportunistic feeders. However they are made to consume fish, shrimp, bugs etc..

I am going to try to catch and weigh a few bass for my other thread.

Fish, high digestibility Purina feeds, such as Aquamax, and Pro Plan for dogs, are indeed 98% digestible and converted into flesh. In the case of Tilapia, Aquamax will create 1 pound of flesh for each 1.2 pounds of feed consumed. This is repeated and documented. The extra loss is due to calories expended. In the wild (pond) an Large mouth bass will consume about 10 pounds of food for each pound gained. Using Aquamax, LMB growth will be about 1 pound flesh to 4 pounds feed, again, with metabolic calories consuming the extra nutrition.

Not all feeds are the same, but the feeds Purina has for high growth are using highly digestible ingredients.

Some low-quality feeds use chicken feathers to "factually" claim a high protein content, yet animals cannot utilize that protein.

That is true. LMK what they weigh and their length!!

Oh, gosh no. I didn't see anything wrong with your response.

As Sparkplug says -- Go for it!

I've probably been biased by what I've seen the commercial feed makers go through to develop products. Before all the budget cuts, I volunteered for a number of years with the University of WV Aquaculture Extension Service at a fish research facility. One of the things we did was test a lot of different feeds from a number of different producers. Especially through our many Pond Boss conferences, we've gotten to see what Purina and Cargill have gone through in developing premium feeds.

When Dr. Mark Griffin was still at Purina, and working close with the Pond Boss himself, Bob Lusk, we got to see the painstaking work that went into developing Aquamax. Similarly, through Pond Boss we've gotten to see what one of the biggest producers found after extensive research on the "perfect" food -- the fish didn't like it!

I don't use the best feed for my fish. But, my fish are happy. That makes me happy. I've spent a lot of time playing with different ideas to improve my ponds and my fish. That is what I see you doing, and I applaud you for it. That is also what the Pond Boss forum is all about -- sharing our ideas.

Finally -- I'm not sure you were ever welcomed into the Pond Boss family. So, welcome to Pond Boss. Please keep us informed of what you are doing. We all learn from each other.

Ken

Through my work with the WV Extension Service, we actually got a conversion of 0.7 with a particular feed from a company in Pennsylvania. That is, for every 0.7 lbs., of fish feed, we got 1 lb., of flesh. These were rather extreme circumstances. Some of it had to do with the level of dehydration, but ...

The 4% fiber listed on the label is all passed.

The digestive process is not different for any carnivore no matter where they come from or what they eat.

Some things to think about.

Why do the ornamental cichlid farmers in Florida mix their own mash to feed their fish?

Why do members here worry about sinking food not getting eaten and going to waste? Bluegill have no issue digging a tasty piece of food from the muck on the bottom of the pond. Even if they didn't some other animal in the food chain would eat it so it wouldn't go to waste. I think you guys like floating food because you enjoy watching your fish eat and I don't blame you.

I have done a lots of taste testing on different ingredients. Aquarium hobbyists are strange creatures. If their fish don't immediately go nuts for a food the are not likely to continue feeding it. I have done taste testing on two brands of whole menhaden fish meal, whole herring fish meal, salmon parts meal, tuna parts meal and "fish meal" which I suspect is either catfish or tilapia parts meal or a combination of both. The winner hands down was the whole menhaden meal made by Omega Protein. The freshest and best shrimp meal that I have found I buy from Blum and Bergeron Inc.. I made a test food I named Shrimp Po Boy that was shrimp meal bound with egg whites. It sent the fish into a feeding frenzy. They frantically swam around looking for more for at least 15 minutes after the food was gone. No this is not in any way normal! Cost from my local co-op for a 50 lb bag of whole menhaden meal including tax is $1.42 per lb. 500 lbs of shrimp meal shipped from Louisiana to Alabama via freight cost .86 cents per lb.

I hope some of you find this at least somewhat interesting.

I think it's quite interesting. The reason I prefer floating feed over sinking feed has nothing to do with enjoying the spectacle of my fish eating, rather it allows me to gauge their response....feeding heavily, or lightly? This permits me to adjust my feed rates accordingly. In an aquarium, the water clarity allows you to see the fish feeding off the bottom, so you are able to get a feel for how much to feed. Not that way in a pond, where you are left wondering if a bluegill came back and dug that pellet out of the muck.

Ditto on what sprkplug said. I'm interested as well.

Price also might come into play. I know some members here that feed a LOT per month, IIRC some are over 100 pounds per month.

I noticed in my pond, when I fed the RBT all winter long, and the feed rate was around 1 3/4 pounds per day (for 50 pounds of RBT) that I had filamentous algae growing all winter long in the area around the feeder. I kept the ice open with my winter aerator in front of the feeder. More food = more FA. Last year I didn't feed, and I didn't have the FA problem.

Most aquarium hobbyists are guilty of over feeding. If I have one fish in a tank I feed the amount of food as big as the fishes eye twice a day.

Keep in mind fish eat until the food is gone. They are hard wired to do this as a survival mechanism.

In a complete ecosystem something in the food chain eats that pellet. I highly doubt that it goes to waste unless you are grossly over feeding. This is unlikely because feed is expensive.

I try to learn something new every day. I am glad to see others have the same attitude.

The algae is more than likely caused by excessive nitrates or phosphates. Were the fish eating all of the food?

There was some food floating around the edge of the ice. I used an automatic feeder and it was set to the lowest setting available that it would reliably feed at. (one second, one feeding per day. Feeding every other day isn't an option on the timer.)

Esshup brings up a good point. Many here use an automatic feeder on their ponds, or are absentee owners. Unless time is regularly spent observing the fish while feeding, it might be fairly easy to over feed this way, unintentionally of course.

Another difference between hand feeding in an aquarium, vs. larger scale in a pond or lake.

Also, some here feed to satiation, or very nearly so, in the quest for trophy fish. The goal is to grow larger fish, not just sustain that fish.

I would simply not feed in the winter as it appears it is doing the algae more good than the fish. The statement I made earlier about fish feeding until the food is gone does not apply to cold water. The most humane way to kill a fish is to put it in water and put it in the freezer. Its metabolism slows down gradually until it stops.

Many aquarium hobbyists use automatic feeders.

Most if not all aquarium hobbyists goal is for their fish to thrive not simply survive.

I think that what we are finding out that the only difference is the scale. A LMB today is the same as it was almost 6k years ago.

With testing in my pond last year I found that the RBT had the same amount of growth if I didn't feed from ice-on to ice-off.

I don't know if only one winter of testing is enough. I might try it again this year.

RBT at one pound weight at stocking in October grew to between 2# and 3# by late June. That was feeding 50#/month, every month.

I saw approximately the same amount of growth last year when not feeding ice-on to ice-off, same size and amount of trout stocked as the previous year.

When I put trout in the pond at 2# each, and fed 50#/month, they grew to roughly 7# each by the end of June. Half the number of fish stocked, but the same total weight at stocking.

What about water clarity in an aquarium vs. a pond, and its role in determining consumption of feed, or amount of feed not utilized by the target species? (waste)

I don't think that it really matters as the fish in the pond are used to stained or muddy water.

But how do YOU know how much of the sinking feed is being consumed by the target species in stained pond, vs. clear aquarium water?

Its impossible to know for certain.

I agree. And that's one big reason that floating feed is preferred over sinking feed in some pond applications. I'll be the first to admit that I get a big charge over watching my fish eat....but I'm not there strictly to enjoy myself, I'm there to try and get a handle on my fish, in regards to how much I should feed. They don't eat the same every day, and by watching their reaction to the feed I get a feel for how much to give them.

Revised Gamefish Grow


Shrimp Meal 8.1 oz. 46.2%
Soybean Meal 7.9 oz. 45.1%
Crude Menhaden Fish Oil 1.5 oz. 8.5%
Water 17 oz.

Mix ingredients and feed.

47.7% protein, 12.7% fat, 20.2% starch, 3.7% fiber, 15.7% ash

Ingredient cost for a lb 80 cents.

http://www.floridaexoticfishsales.com/about_us/abt_us.pdf

Page 12 talks about developing the mash that they use. I met Rick through a mutual friend at the ACA convention back in 2008. He has some interesting stories to tell.

Fish have significantly more time to forage on a floating pellet - in my pond over an hour sometimes depending on wind speed and direction, and only a matter of seconds on sinking feed. I do feed my caged fish sinking feed or hydrated pellets occasionally, when I can monitor their activity through high clarity or via aquavu camera. Using cameras to document sinking feed heading to the bottom and have in fact seen a few YP graze it, however I've never witnessed another fish species interested in pellets on the bottom of the pond. As we all know. uneaten food becomes excessive nutrients which speeds up the eutrophication process. Since pond owners nationwide spend millions annually to slow that very process through various products and services, wasted food is a natural enemy for us. I would not employ sinking feed for several reasons mentioned by others, but primarily because of it's short time frame in the target zone for my fish.

I can certainly understand not wanting to have food rotting on the bottom of the pond. I am currently helping some friends battle weeds fueled by years of leaf litter collecting on the bottom of the pond. So yeah I get what you are saying.

Once you get BG trained to feed on pellets aren't you also ringing the dinner bell for the LMB?

TJ, in my pond I've noticed RES picking pellets off of the bottom after they've sunk. They haven't been there for long, I think the motion of them slowly sinking thru the water column attracted the RES, and they picked it up off the bottom not too long after it hit.

Yes, feeding the BG in turn feeds the LMB, either by the LMB learning to eat pellets (or being feed trained to start) or by them eating the fish that are eating the pellets.

I think I know how you came up with these percentages and I believe your figures are incorrect. If your using conventional "meal" that would be a dry measure, so 8.1 oz. is how much it weighs. Fish oil is liquid measure. Liquid and dry measure are different units of meanurement. All units must be the same to calculate percentages, this is often done on a dry matter basis. The water has to figure in to your calculations also.

Loretta! You've must have been busy, I haven't seen you on here much lately. I'll bet the colors there are starting to get good.

Yes very busy! The colors are good and leaves are starting to fall. I've been making something for the pond and when it's done and tested I may need you to help me post some pictures.

Fish food, that's a lot of ash too! As you know, ash is not a good thing. I understand you wanting to feed a more natural diet, I'm all for that, natural is always better, processed food is just convenient. Farmed fish are lower in Omega 3's than wild fish because of artificial feed and are not as beneficial for people to eat. Don't get me started on ethoxyquin (a preservtive) commonly found in fish feed. Purina also likes to use artificial vitamin K( menadione sodium bisulfate complex) in their foods, another controversial ingredient.

A long time ago I asked what everyone did with the fish that were culled from their ponds. I thought it would be great to grind them up and feed it back to the other fish. I'm not at the point where I need to cull fish but when I do I will certainly try to do something like this.

I don't want to speak for Bruce Condello, but besides his massive "Condello Strain Bluegills" he has also been growing some monstrous largemouth bass. His LMB are way above what should be possible to be grow in his northern latitude. I will just say that it is based on his culled bluegill.

Bruce gave us all a hint of what he is doing in a short presentation at the last Pond Boss conference.

As for me, I "can" my culled bluegill. I scale them, gut them, and cut their heads off. Overnight, I brine them in about about a gallon of water, with a cup of pickling salt. I rinse them and tightly pack them in pint jars with a slice of onion and a clove of garlic. I put the jars in a pressure cooker for about 30 minutes. They make great substitutes for canned salmon or tuna. We also use these canned culls to make great faux Maryland-style "crab cakes."

To me, that is real home made fish food.

Regards,
Crazy Ken

Ken, if there was a "like" button, I'd use it on your post^.

Hi Loretta,

I actually have a few formulas being made and sold as food for aquarium fish.

I came here to get some help with some friends pond and do some "out of the box" ideas on feeding pond fish.

The folks here have been very nice and helpful!

Clay

Ken, I was at Bruces this summer (remember when the crazy hailstorm hit Lincoln, NE? I was at Bruces place and it just missed us.) I hand fed some of the LMB in the pond behind his house. What you saw at the conference was nothing. The fish in the pond are doing MUCH better than what I think Bruce was hoping for. You know the pictures of the fat LMB from my pond? Mine are anorexic compared to his!! And that's all I'm saying about it. If Bruce wants to add more, it's up to him.

My apologies esshup. That link was not mean't to be advertising.

It wasn't taken that way, but as a mod I have to apply the rules as evenly as I can.

I've even moderated myself after reading a reply that I had typed and thinking "that wasn't nice".

Thanks for doing your job!

The fish are the same but aquarium folks and pond folks generally have very different goals.

Aquarium people treat their fish like pets. What I make for aquarium fish is health food for fish. It contains plenty of protein and enough energy (starch and fat) for them to breed and live long healthy lives. Excess fat and starch leads to fatty liver condition which many biologists believe shortens the fish's lifespan. In a nut shell feeding our food makes them feel good about themselves. Fish are much easier to understand than humans. One of the reasons that I have a business partner is that if I believe that I will learn something beneficial I will net a live fish from the tank and dissect it immediately.

Pond fish are either mean't to be eaten or to be grown to trophy size. In either case you want fat fish. I spoke with the Head of Nutrition at Auburn's Fisheries Department about having some fish's livers dissected and examined about a year ago. He told me that they had caught catfish being fed grain based food from a pond and that they had fatty liver condition but were otherwise healthy. The point being fish mean't to be eaten it really doesn't matter.

Clay

And as far as using culls as fish food I am all for it. I have considered catching skipjack herring below Guntersville Dam to make my own fish meal. Unfortunately they are to oily to use. It would get to be too much work and mess pressing the oil then trying to calculate whats left. Simply not worth it.

I had a neighbor who worked in a grocery and brought me loves
of throw a way stale bread everyday. The fish loved it.

FF, I'm confused. I've been watching this thread, and still don't know what your ultimate goals are. You said you've developed a homemade high protein mix, then talk about your business partner in this endeavor.

Are your ultimate plans for DIY home use, or for retail sale? If the raw ingredient costs are 80 cents a pound, wouldn't processing, packaging, distribution, etc. easily double or triple the cost per pound?

I'm not questioning your motives, just curious.

I am here to get help for my friends pond and help anyone wanting to try a DIY pond fish food.

I debated on whether to mention my studies on fish nutrition. Most people don't like change and some resent me for suggesting that I can give them recipes better than Purina's.

I guess its time to put my money where mouth is and spend the $20 on a 50 lb bag of soybean meal. I have been thinking about how to start training the BG in my friends pond to eat a dough food. I can start with a small piece on the shallow end where I can see it on top of the leaf litter. Toss it in when I get there and net out any left when I leave.

Fish...The site embraces change, unconventional thoughts, and options. Just because some here may disagree with your recipe being "better", or pointing out possible issues does not mean it is unappreciated. If I could find, or make a better, lower cost, more nutritious feed, I would buy or make it in a heartbeat. "Better", is a matter of personal interpretation.

Lets take an unbiased look at the the waste passed from each formula. Keep in mind this only applies to a carnivore.

Revised Gamefish Grow

47.7% protein, 12.7% fat, 20.2% starch, 3.7% fiber, 15.7% ash

Purina Aquamax Grower 500

41.3% protein, 12% fat, 31.7% starch, 4% fiber, 11% ash

Protein Waste: Gamefish 47.7 x .88 digestible protein = 42.3
47.7 - 42.3 = 5.3% waste

Aquamax 41.3 x .94 digestible protein = 38.8
41.3 - 38.8 = 2.4% waste

All fat is either used for energy or stored

Starch Waste: Gamefish 20.2 - 20 = .2% waste

Aquamax 31.7 - 20 = 11.7% waste

All Fiber is passed Gamefish 3.7% waste

Aquamax 4% waste

Ash is used at around 7% - 8% Gamefish 15.7 - 7.5 = 8.2% waste

Aquamax 11 - 7.5 = 3.5% waste

Total Waste: Gamefish 17.4% waste Aquamax 21.6% waste

I am still not happy with Gamefish. The protein waste is too high for my liking. Need to switch to a fish parts meal to get the protein digestibility up and the ash down.

Thank You! I am used to and welcome criticism. It only makes what I am trying to do better.

I have an idea on how to control the feeding of a dough type food. Take a 10' piece of 1" conduit with a bend or fitting on one end. Get a piece of rope, a used mesh potato bag and a concrete block. Put the dough in the mesh bag and close it. Cut a length of rope to suspend the bag from the end of the conduit so the dough is just under the surface. Put a concrete block on the end of the conduit on your dock to hold it in place.

You get to see the fish feed, control how long they feed and put any uneaten dough in a plastic bag for your next feeding. How about that!!

Revised Gamefish Grow Fish Meal

49.2% protein, 18.2% fat, 20.9% starch, .8% fiber, 10.9% ash

Purina Aquamax Grower 500

41.3% protein, 12% fat, 31.7% starch, 4% fiber, 11% ash

Protein Waste: Gamefish 49.2 x .91 digestible protein = 44.7
49.2 - 44.7 = 4.4% waste

Aquamax 41.3 x .94 digestible protein = 38.8
41.3 - 38.8 = 2.4% waste

All fat is either used for energy or stored

Starch Waste: Gamefish 20.9 - 20 = .9% waste

Aquamax 31.7 - 20 = 11.7% waste

All Fiber is passed Gamefish .8% waste

Aquamax 4% waste

Ash is used at around 7% - 8% Gamefish 10.9 - 7.5 = 3.4% waste

Aquamax 11 - 7.5 = 3.5% waste

Total Waste: Gamefish 9.5% waste Aquamax 21.6% waste

That's better. Waiting on fish meal prices from my local co-op. This formula is closer to the Purina 50% protein food.

Fish Food, do you have a nutrient analysis for the Aquamax or did Purina disclose the % of digestible protein to you? I have contacted them before and I know how stingy they are with specific information. I'm just wondering where your data is coming from, also the digestible value for your Gamefish grow meal.

How do you know fish will utilize 20% of the starch? I'm a dog food foodie and know a little bit about nutrition for dogs but really nothing about fish. I would like to learn more, do you have a reference for this?

I think adding more protein might not make a difference to the fish. I found this article that says rainbow trout showed no growth differences when fed diets with protein contents of 41% and 56.5%. If there are no growth differences then the fish aren't utilizing all the digestible protein they are fed. The abstract says "These results indicate that the limit to which rainbow trout can metabolize protein to increase growth may have already been reached, and that any future increases in protein in commercial feeds may not affect the growth rates."

What the fish don't utilize becomes waste. So, the feed with the higher protein content will have more wasted protein. Protein waste is expensive waste. This may be why Purina chooses to use the amount of protein they do.

You can find this interesting article here: http://www.wisconsinaquaculture.com/Docs/Purina_Rainbow_trout_feed_study-Becca_Philipps-2010.pdf

Loretta...I will write a detailed response to your questions in the morning. I appreciate your interest.

What I want to know when deciding on a feed is where the ingredients are sourced. I know in dog food this is important if quality is a concern. The quality or lack of quality for ingredients can make a huge difference when it comes to nutrition. I don't trust anything from China and a lot of cheap bulk vitamins are sourced from China.

The idea of a homemade diet for fish is great but another feed with processed (rendered) ingredients doesn't excite me. Fresh is better. I want a recipe for fresh (or frozen) fish food.

Clay, have you ever had your food analyzed? If not, it would be interesting to see how close your calculations match up with actual values. I've used Midwest Laboratories before to analyze some dog food and they are pretty reasonable. I would look for a package that includes the values your interested in or you can order tests individually.

Here's a link to some of their individual tests:
https://www.midwestlabs.com/individual-pet-food-analysis/

It is my understanding that a high protein feed damages the liver of catfish. So, all fish do not metabolize in the same way.

As you know Purina won't reveal anything they consider "secret". I used digestibility numbers from similar sources for the primary sources of protein in the foods.

Generic "Fish Meal" can be salmon, tuna, catfish or tilapia. This confuses things even further. The salesman in your area here can probably help you http://www.nutrablend.net/nutraBlend.Sales.aspx
Keep in mind all "fish meal" is preserved using ethoxyquin.

Tuna fish meal digestibility comparable to https://omeganutrient.com//wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Natural-Nautic.pdf

Chicken By-Product Meal
http://www.wcrl.com/products/product_spec_sheets/poultry_meal.htm

Soybean Meal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_Digestibility_Corrected_Amino_Acid_Score

Carl Strohmeyer who has forgotten more about fish nutrition than I will ever know gave me the about 20% number. This came from a study done years ago. I didn't push him to dig out the source as he has health issues and is still trying to make a living in our tough economy. Read this article, Its very good and where I got my start making fish food. http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/quality_fish_food.html

I break fish out into three categories: Carnivores have short digestive tracts so they can extract the least amount of energy from starch. Omnivores have medium length digestive tracts which allows them to extract more energy from starch. Most fish considered scavengers are omnivores. Herbivores have very long digestive tracts which allows them to extract nearly all if not all of the energy from starch. Keep in mind that all fish are opportunistic feeders and will eat anything they can catch.

Carnivores up to large juveniles/young adults benefit from the 50% protein food. From your source and other sources that I have read once carnivores are adults 40% protein is fine. Where do you put the 10% that you removed? You have already maxed or exceeded your starch. If your goal is putting weight on the fish the only option that doesn't lead to more waste is fat. As I stated earlier excess energy (starch, sugar and fat) leads to fatty liver condition and fat stored around the organs. At some point the fat covered cells in the liver begin dying. Once all of the cells die the liver shuts down and I am pretty sure you can figure out the rest. However this process does take quite some time to play out.

I won't buy or use anything from Southeast Asia. You and me think alike when it comes to ingredients. Omega Protein whole fish meal caught or raised in the Gulf of Mexico. The only problem with getting Omega's ethoxyquin free meal is you have to buy 1.5 tons for them to make a run. In my aquarium fish food venture at this point I can't use that much before it goes bad. Did you know most paprika contains ethoxyquin?

I have been talking about doing it for years so the answer is no. I am confident that with the information provided by the manufacturers it is close. However I am sure that due to variables the percentages vary slightly. Yes its sad I am too cheap to spend the $30 per test to get real numbers. lol

Excess protein fed to any fish will damage the kidneys to some degree. Yes excess protein is treated as waste. In adult fish its all about maintaining muscle and tissue. How can this vary from a carnivorous bass to an omnivorous catfish? The same size fish has the same mass of muscle and tissue to maintain.

From the Pond Boss Conv. Presentation – some of the text. There is a lot going on now wrt fish nutrition and the use of plant vs. animal protein sources.


Fish Nutrition
Applied Science for Small Waters



Bio-Energetics

• The study of the flow and transformation of energy within a particular system.
• Bioenergetics is the subject of a field of biochemistry that concerns energy flow and transformation through living systems.
• Growth, development and metabolism are some of the central phenomena in the study of biological organisms. The role of energy is fundamental to such biological processes. The ability to harness energy from a variety of metabolic pathways is a property of all living organisms. Life is dependent on energy transformations; living organisms survive because of exchange of energy within and without.
• Living organisms obtain energy from organic and inorganic materials. For example, lithotrophs can oxidize minerals . In photosynthesis, autotrophs can produce ATP using light energy. Heterotrophs must consume organic compounds. These are mostly carbohydrates, fats, and proteins. The amount of energy actually obtained by the organism is lower than the amount present in the food; there are losses in digestion, metabolism, and thermogenesis.



Basic Food Components – Nutrition

• The immense variety of cultured finfish species hampers efforts to simplify production industry wide. Approximately 170 taxa are currently cultured, including carnivores, herbivores, planktivores, and omnivores, each posing its own set of nutritional demands .
• Fish meal has proven to be an excellent dietary protein source for finfish, leading to its description as an ‘‘ideal protein.’’ The ideal protein concept is based on the premise that if the amino acid profile of the feed mimics the whole-body amino acid profile of the animal being fed, protein utilization and growth should be maximized
• Lipids, fatty acids, and their derivatives play a role in virtually every physiological process that occurs and for this reason dietary lipid composition and content represent a massive sector of overall nutrition. Nowhere is this more true than in finfish nutrition where lipid can exceed protein in the body composition of finfish, a testament to the physiological and energetic importance of this nutrient class (Tocher2003). Aside from physiological importance, lipids are indispensable energy sources, especially for finfish, which are not well-adapted to carbohydrate utilization.
• Dietary protein and energy must be kept in proper balance because a deficiency or excess of dietary energy can reduce growth rates. Fish fed diets deficient in energy will metabolize more expensive dietary protein to meet energy requirements. Excess dietary energy can decrease protein intake and suppress growth.
• finfish do not require carbohydrates in their diet, … complex carbohydrates cannot be digested and utilized efficiently by most finfish species. A general dichotomy exists in the carbohydrate digestive ability of warmwater omnivores and herbivores versus the inability of coolwater and coldwater carnivores, which lack the appropriate function necessary for digestion of carbohydrates.
• For this reason, diets fed to these fish rarely contain more than 20% complex carbohydrate
• Conversely, warmwater omnivores or herbivores (e.g., channel catfish, tilapia, common carp, and white sturgeon) adapt well to diets containing as much as 40% dietary carbohydrate .
• Although vitamins and minerals are required in minute amounts compared with protein, lipid, and so forth, they are critically important, … Every micronutrient has a deficiency disease associated with it, the effects of which are sometimes irreversible or fatal. For a few vitamins and most minerals, excess can be equally detrimental, resulting in toxicity.


FOOD HABITS OF WHITE AMUR, LARGEMOUTH BASS,BLUEGILL, AND
REDEAR SUNFISH RECEIVING SUPPLEMENTAL FEED
Ronald H. Kilgen
27th Southeast Association of Game and Fish Commissioners
Largemouth bass preferred fish and other animals (64%), but also ate some supplemental feed (32%). Bluegill stomachs contained more supplemental feed
(44%) than any other item, followed by insects and animal parts (28%), and plant
parts (17%). Redears seemed to prefer insect larvae (42%), but also ate plant
material (38%). White amur apparently did not compete with the sunfishes for
either natural or supplementary food items.


Mean fat percentage of Dorosoma spp. (24.2%) exceeded that of Lepomis spp. (15.2%) and fathead minnows (19.1%), but was less than that of mosquitofish (25.8%) and golden shiners (34.8%) . Bluegills had lower caloric contents than gizzard and threadfin shad ; preliminary data collected for the present study also showed Lepomis spp. To the lower in caloric content than the clupeids.



Although carnivorous fish species generally have a limited ability to use carbohydrates for energy, hybrid striped bass are relatively adept at it. Digestibility coefficients for the carbohydrates were generally high (83.3 to100 percent), indicating that both simple carbohydrates and complex carbohydrates were digested efficiently by these hybrids




Key Science Points

• Because fish growth often is limited by food availability, supplemental feeding is a logical tool to improve the condition of fish in small impoundments as the energy cost for bluegill to feed on pellets is small relative to the high caloric intake, which can be 4-5 times greater than those fed natural foods (Schalles and Wissing 1976).
• Substantial increases in the standing stock of bluegill in ponds that receive pellet feed have been recorded (Schmittou 1969) and, in lakes, pellet feeding has been found to increase the number of large bluegills (Nail and Powell 1975).
• These results indicate that total fish production and production of bluegill were each increased approximately 75 to 80% by supplemental feeding in 19 months after stocking (Schmittou 1967)

• Previous studies demonstrated that feed in excess of 10 pounds per acre per day in bluegill ponds was not utilized. Some accumulated and decomposed, thus depleting the supply of dissolved oxygen which resulted in fish kills (Schmittou 1967) .
• the rate of growth of sunfish can be increased by short-circuiting the food cycle, thereby producing harvestable size sunfish in a shorter period of time than would occur under natural conditions (Carnes 1966).
• The pellet size should be approximately 20-30% of the size of the fish species mouth gape. Feeding too small a pellet results in inefficient feeding because more energy is used in finding and eating more pellets. Conversely, pellets that are too large will depress feeding and, in the extreme, cause choking. Select the largest sized feed the fish will actively eat.
• Addition of supplemental pelleted feed did not contribute to the rate of growth of young shad, but did increase the growth and spawning frequency of adults.


Also do a search for posts by Griffin (Mark Griffin pHd fish nutritionist) here are a couple for reference.

Well, today I see that Yahoo has a story on the importance of omega 3 fatty acids for us humans. For most of us, the source is fish - salmon, tuna, sardines, etc. I have not seen the data - but, for winter survival, the idea is that fish oil is a fluid. This enhance membrane fluidity. This is often cited as a reason for the role of PUFAs with brain function/development. When the water gets cold, the fish get cold. Therefore, it stands to reason that these fats benefit the animals in cold conditions. If the overall fatty acid profile has too much saturated fat, their fat reserves will solidify in cold water - like tallow in cold water. These PUFAs are important in many other aspects besides the physical properties....

Predatory fish get these fats from the smaller fish they consume. They do not synthesize the long chain PUFAs. The source is from algae and these fats are passed on to algae-eating zooplankton and fish and move up the food chain. Menhaden are excellent sources of the omega 3 PUFAs, because they are fatty fish and about 25% of their fatty acids are the long chain PUFAs. So, in a prepared diet, you need either a significant amount of certain marine algaes, or fish oil or meal (approximately 10% of fish meal is fish oil - as a side note... this is because fish meal is mechanically expressed, so it does not get all the fat out. In solvent-extracted meals - such as soybean meal - there is vurtually no fat left).

Feather meal as a fish food protein source. There are two primary factors of protein quality for monogastrics (fish for this discussion) - 1) Amino Acid profile and 2) Amino Acid availability. The amino acid profile of feather looks pretty good if you look at the Total Sulfur Amino Acid content. It has a high content of cystine - a sulfur amino acid (SAA). SAAs can be limiting in monogastric diets and tend to be expensive to formulate into diets (they are relatively low in many inexpensive plant proteins). Unfortunately, the reason it is so high is because feather is a structural protein. The di-sulfide bonds between two cysteines make the protein very tough. This is what gives the keratins their structural rigidity - like our hair and fingernails. Unfortunately, this serves to make them very hard to digest. Therefore, as a rule, the availability is not so good. To increase the availability, feather meal is often hydrolyzed, this is an attempot to break down the disulfide bonds to increase availability. Shoe leather analyzes at 85% crude protein, but it is not digestible.

A word on protein sources.... Most protein sources are available in different qualities. This is particularly true for the expensive animal proteins - fish meal, poultry meals, blood meals, etc. Quality and freshness of the raw materials and the processing are factors that result in this variability. As examples:
A) Quality of Raw Materials: Meat meals are often priced on protein content - simply put, it is the ratio of bone (ash) to meat (protein). Bones (minerals, ash) are not as valuable as protein.
B) Freshness of Raw Materials: The US commercial fishing fleet for menhaden now has all refrigerated vessel storage.... the season is in over the summer, primarily in the Gulf of Mexico. Obviously, if it is not refrigerated....
c) Processing: Blood has a good amino acid profile. If it is drum-dried (essentially scorched on a extremely hot steel drum) it has poor availability and is a fairly poor ingredient. If it has been spray dried under low heat - it is an excellent ingredient.

High quality fish meal is the gold standard - it has the best Amino acid profile for fish (fish protein to grow fish protein)and is highly digestible. Further, it tastes great to fish (fish meal based diets are much more palatable to carnivorous fish) and it contains about 10% fish oil (high in omega 3 polyunsaturated fatty acids). Many other proteins can be used as long as they are formulated properly into an overall dietary amino acid profile.

Holler if you have questions. MEG

Just depends on what warm water fish you are feeding and what results you desire. For instance, when grown at 80 F, fingerling Hybrid Striped Bass growth varied significantly, depending on both type and content of dietary protein and content of fat. Catfish formulations are plant based, while good trout/salmon formulations are animal based (preferably fish based). Strictly carnivorous fish do not do as well on plant-protein based diets. Below, diets are described in terms of Protein/fat, so a 40/10 is 40% protein and 10% fat (the OLD reliable trout diet).

36/8 (plant based)... 280% Weight Gain X
42/4 (plant based)....347% " 1.24X
35/10 (fish based)....432% " 1.54X
44/8 (fish based)....487% " 1.74X
55/15 (fish based)....650% " 2.32X**

It is important to note that all of these diets were high quality, they were just designed for different purposes and vary greatly in cost. For instance the 36/8 is designed for channel catfish fingerlings and the 55/15 is designed for Atlantic Salmon fingerlings. The 55/15 may cost 4 times as much as the plant based 36, so the economics are certainly arguable... just depends.

**Additionally, the ultra high growth on the 55/15 should be taken with a grain of salt as it resulted in obese fish (HSB very efficiently lay down dietary fat in their abdominal cavity), indeed the whole-body fat of HSB fed the 55/15 was 62% greater than that of the fish fed the 42/4.

Lets revisit this topic on LMB this fall as Bob Lusk is working on a trial this summer that should give us some more to discuss. Mark

Very good read Mark!

I take exception to:

For many years I bound my aquarium food using egg whites. This gave me the highly sought after high ground concerning the use of carbohydrates as a binder. I finally did some testing on tropical carnivores and found that they could use at least 15% energy derived from carbohydrates. I can't speak to cold water carnivores but as for warm water carnivores its simply not true.

Looking forward to hearing what Mr. Lusk's trial reveals.