I'm not sure if this have discussed in the past about enhanced feeding to increase the fish biological growth (unable to find such past posts), so, here's a little input from my years of fauna, biological,and environmental research-studies. Hope Bruce Condello is okay with posting a similar discussion on this site aside from his wonderful site. Please, correct me if new info discovered, or I'm wrong in any way.

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There are myriad of articles I've studied about back in college between 1994 to 2001, while double focused on bio-medical and environment toxicology fields of study. Information was found in late 1995, but was not published and harvest until nearly a decade later. I've followed the information about the micro and macro nutrients found under the depth of ocean, not only for human health improvement, but also for any and every aspects of benefits based on the loaded nutrients found. This may not only perfect for your fish experiments, but may also benefit from it for your families. Here are a few articles for reading pleasure:

http://www.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_36/issue_8/1578.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=BnZ77tb...nts&f=false

http://www.fathom.com/feature/35604/index.html


If you like more info, search key words in Google/Yahoo:

"Phytoplankton", "Deep Ocean Nutrients", "Deep Ocean Micro Nutrients Harvest", and "Deep Ocean Macro Nutrients", "Seaweed for consumption", "Kelp for consumption"

You'll be surprise that fish that fed off the deep ocean floors were/are magnificently larger, and those who live int he kelp/seaweed beds display greater spectrum of coloration not only within their bodies, but outside as well. All thanks to the micro and macro nutrients loads they've consumed, or predation fish consumed preys that receive the micro and macro nutrients.

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Products:

* Uncertain of the claims in the methods of harvesting at the moment for these companies, but you can always tear the products apart, and literally look it under the microscope. I have the lab equipment over here, and if you want me to look at it for you, I'm more than willing to. Just send me a small sample no more than 50mg, or by 100ml in volume. If it comes in one pill size, give me the pill. I'll process it through centrifuging to make the materials more viable for analysis.

http://coq9-marinephytoplankton5000.com/index.php/quality

http://oceansolution.com/products/faq

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Side products you might want to try with extreme high load of the fish nutrients needed, including chitin source:

http://www.oceanorganics.com/golf-course/seablend.htm

* Integrating this as part of the feed will increase the coloration of your fish. It may be a fertilizer, but it contains rich amount of oceanic macro nutrients, micro nutrients, and best of all, the calcium loaded chitin that fish use as part of their bones and scale development.

SEAWEED/KELP!!

http://www.noamkelp.com/

* For millenia, Asians eat this stuff like it's salads, in soup, or as dried wraps. As part of longivity, oceanic plants are part of the dietary supplement. Seaweeds/kelp suck up enough macro and micro nutrients around them, store them within the leaves, and only release it after it dies. Why do you think the coastal areas that has high concentration of seaweeds/kelp house such as massive diversity of life?

Coral Calcium rich:
http://www.naturalcuresstore.com/c=W4vFo...CFYUZQgoduU4Biw

* Japan is known of its intuitive diets. They discovered the high calcium load that the body taken in easily is from the white coral found along Japan's northern and southern coasts. People that have eaten ocean creatures that dwell within these coral beds, as well as the coral ground along the shore depths, increase life and body structure density by nearly 4 times without modernized supplements. Average human health and lifespan range between 80 to 110 years of age. That's for the older generations that had no modern medicines, yet outlive from those who have massive modern medicines.

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Key to understand:

10% of calcium intake on a regular basis is the critical key during maturing states. I've collected and analyzed the data for aquatic macrofauna with the rest of the geeks and lab boys throughout the world. Same conclusion comes up over and over again. Between 9% to 15%, based on the areas of the water, all fish species and water based biological creature consume anything and everything that contain high level of calcium during development. This include integrated silica (sand) as part of their integral diet to leach as much calcium and calcium absorbing compounds into their diets, during maturation stages. When they can find the source of high calcium, such as shrimps, krill, shellfish, they will gobble them up over the basic protein rich diets from worms or insects. However, any opportunity knocking at their doors, such as insects with a source of chitin (harden outer shells) and proteins, they'll go for it as well. Secondary supplement of high micro nutrients exists in worms that dwell at the bottom of the water, or young plants that just surface from the soil below contain optimal enriched nutrients. Older plants will keep on sucking up the nutrients for storage in their bodies and bulbs, but most of the nutrients get diverted to growth in the young leaves. Young plants still have plenty of nutrients within their reserves and the roots continue to suck up large amount of nutrients. This is why most, if not all, fishes focused their consumption on creatures with the best load of everything. Anglers noticed that certain shellfish from freshwater will jump for joy on saltwater shellfishes. It's pre-programmed into their genetic makeup.

15% is the max level of calcium during maturation stages. This is why you notice gills between 3" to 7" will hammer anything that floats, casting a shadow of a bug, or maturing nymphs, while the older ones will chase after younger gills, trouts, shads, and various opportunities that may be in reach. 15% is the key factor in quick growth due to body bone density requirement. Higher calcium load will warp their body structure, and create odd bone density, which yield improper growth, causing them to sink more, or require them to over compensate their bodily functions.

Suggestion is, 15% calcium as part of the fish dietary needs for maturation state, and cut back when needed if you see their bodies become overly bulky. 55% mix proteins is excellent. Remaining would be fibers with macro and micro nutrients to increase their stamina and health. Seaweeds-high nutrients blend is crucial. Recipes for success will be a vital key ingredient for your monsters within the ponds.

Sorry for such as long post for the first time out. I'm passionate with researches on discovering vital keys. Just hope what I've found will enhance your fishery management. I'm still amazed at the ponds that created the mutants of monster fishes because of the love and dedication you put into them. Just marvelous.

Let's kick this up a notch. Homemade floating meals that is a fraction of the commercial brand. Bruce got me running numbers and roaming through my old notes after seeing some online data that doesn't agree with me. Can someone chime in with me on this so I can crunch in data based on your response?

Let's take Purina AquaMax product, especially the Large Mouth formulation. Let's say you're using a small pond, trying to start a aquaculture for experimentation and cultivation for resale of your breeding, with the pond size of 1/2 acre (or what's the minimum size recommended?), with a min/max number of species feeding on the same pellets. A few conditions required for the pellets that you may want:

1. Protein levels allow optimal size in muscles development, minus fatty liver issue, and lack of stamina due to obesity.
2. Proper level of fiber and calcium for maximal body integrity.
3. Feeding frenzy during pellet introduction, based on attractant(s) incorporation into the pellet. Higher attractant(s) levels will induce verocious feeding behaviors.
4. Continual floating of the pellets until pellets fully disperse.

Purina probably have a team of creators and testers behind their work benches, but are they utilizing the highest quality/optimal ingredients and practicality in their products while charging the big bucks for the bags? $32/40lb bag?! How long would that last in a pond with so many mouths to feed?

Crude protein (min.)45.00%
Crude fat (min.)10.00%
Crude fiber (max.) 3.00%
Sodium (Na) (actual) 0.40%
Calcium (Ca) (min) 1.60%
Calcium (Ca) (max) 2.10%
Phosphorus (P) (actual)1.00%
Sodium ( Na)(min)0.10%
Sodium (MNa)(max)0.60%
Ash (Max) 10.00%

Ingredients :

Fish Meal, poultry by-product meal, dehulled soybean meal, ground wheat flour, spray dried animal blood cells, corn gluten meal,fish oil (LS), ground corn,pyridoxine hydrochloride, choline chloride, lecithin, calcium pantothenate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex, thiamine mononitrate, biotin, folic acid, vitamin D3 supplement,niacin supplement, L-ascorbyl-2-polyphosphate, riboflavin, vitamin E supplement, vitamin A supplement, ethoxyquin (a preservative), zinc oxide, vitamin B-12 supplement, manganous oxide, ferrous carbonate, copper sulfate, zinc sulfate, calcium iodate, calcium carbonate, cobalt carbonate.

Wow. You're paying all of these for your aquaculture to gulp down on?! Slap me if I'm missing something.

What do you suggest be used instead of Aquamax? Is there something else out there or does it take a custom of some sorts? Or does the water and application of lime account for the lack of calcium? What would be the cost of a "homemade" fish feed?

Homemade can range from binding natural ingredients into pea-size pellets made on your own fresh out of the extruder/grinder, to basically toss in livebaits (such as worms that you grow on your own). It's all about how much efforts you're willing to put forth.

I looked at various other brands, and so far, AquaMax is the only suitable choice that I can compare to. Other products are extremely high on salt, fatty substitutes, and the binding agents blended in with attractants will simply of your fish's deaths due to the fatty liver done in by over consumption. As more chime in, I'll get into the specifics on what I've found from years of notes and data crunching.

For now, let's take your questions into account:

1lb of AquaMax Largemouth, after tax and handling fee, roughly estimated at $40. So, 40lbs bag at retail is $1/lb. My question remains is, how many mounts can 1lb of the fish food feed in a population?

Homemade, based on the long run investment, can be as low as $0.20/lb, or as expensive as $3.00/lb, based on the extend you want to feed your fish. Remember, if you want ferocious fishes, then formulation of higher caliber is required. If you want docile but active feeders, then cheaper formulation can be achieved.

Lime applied into the water doesn't increase calcium in the fish. It contribute as high as 3% of total dietary supplement to the fish's total intake due to the consumption of invertebrates they forage at the bottom. Unless the invertebrates consumed high level of lime into their body, and then dispensed as binding materials from their guts into the fish's stomach, then the percentile increases. Otherwise, no. Calcium must be derived from the intake of the feeds/baits provided. The fish will absorb the calcium based on available calcium source in their dietary consumption.

One of the big benefits to having a large company like Purina creating the feed is their ability to procure large amounts of fish protein (like menhaden) for an economical price/weight ratio. One of the questions that I'd like to eventually discuss would be ways to take a feed like Purina Aquamax Largemouth, then to moisten the feed, and perhaps add micronutrients at our own procurement to the feed to make an ideal formulation for whatever fish we wish to feed. An example would be to look at Purina Aquamax, and what sort of nutrient a bluegill or yellow perch would need to create optimal health/growth/disease resistance, and add in some of the ingredients. Then you'd be able to hand feed the fish at your dock or waters edge, and have some fish that absolutely blow up in size. It might not make sense to do this for five hundred channel catfish, but if you had 100 bluegill that liked your dock location, you could custom feed them. I believe this would even work through the ice, since softened and reformulated feed will slowly sink.

Do you guys mix the sizes of pellets in your feeders? Small pellets, and large pellets?

Yes, but this might be a good question for it's own thread. It's not really related to the subject.

I'm all for a diy recipe.. But man that bag of food sure is easy..

What about contacting Mark Griffin as he developed the product while he was with Purina?

http://www.omegaproteininc.com/

Dr. Griffin's new employer.

I think you can get the best of both worlds. You just need a group of fish, like in a cage, or near your dock, that really want to grow fast. They get the special groceries.

Who ever we can seek advice from, especially those who formulated the feeds before/currently, would allow us valuable insights. I have quite a few studied attractants that will drive the fish to eat practically anything and everything, which an be an asset, or can be destructive.

The micro and macro nutrients can be infused quite easily to the Aquamax feeds, by first reducing the total feed to 1/4, or 1/2 the portion, then combine with proper nutrient loads the fish requires. The problem with infusing with the nutrient loads in a liquid form, the nutrients will be diffused away from the feeds within the first 2 minutes of water contact. Nutrients solid incorporation is the best way, not only for digestion delivery, but also remain in solid in water until consumption.

We have to ask ourselves, it is more healthy to, "Let's just buy a combo meal at a fast food restaurant.." or "Let's cook a nice hot wholesome meal at home.."? We can mix the fatty restaurant foods with our own loads of healthy salads, fruits, and veggies at home to balance out our nutrient needs.

Most of aquaculture breeders and pond owners are at this fork in the road now. Best to proceed with cautions.

Leo, I can't speak for everyone, but I sure would like a food that is taylored to do what you are suggesting. There is only so much large companies are willing to do for the smaller consumers.

Leo, VERY INTERESTING!! Thank you for the info. I have often pondered the aspect of using different sources of fertilization through ocean based sources, but never taken past the thinking part. I have always assumed it would either be cost prohibitive, or sources unattainable. Thanks for the links!

I have a stupid question. First I am by no means a scientist, but always try to weigh all the possible pros and cons of things. I hear about many ocean fishes containing high levels of mercury, as do many freshwater fishes. Is there any transfer of mercury through these nutrient enhancing aspects? Or any other bad things that may ride in via "piggy back"?

The link with the sealife based fertilizers has really got me considering using that for my forage pond, and beginning the nutrient enhancement feed chain there. It sounds like a great way to start. Enhancing the microscopic spectrum, and carry up the food chain could be a very good way of doing this.

Bruce,

I hydrate all of my Aquamax feed now for a better feeding response and easier digestibility in colder water. It would be a piece of cake to add probiotics or what ever to the mix. I'm feeding 5D05 Aquamax to my inside tank fish and add tree parts feed to one part water in a gallon zip lock bag. I invert the bag and get the water and feed throughly mixed then let it sit, but turn it over every 30 seconds or so for the first couple of minutes. In two hours it has a nice clay like consistency. It still floats unless I squeeze it. The pond fish feed on it like crack cocaine if I sink it. I like to sight feed them off the pier. Pretty cool to have 1 lb. + bluegills and 13 to 14 inch yellow perch come up to nail it.

The Europeans are true believers in the probiotics and some here are getting into the act. And they are very cheap vs. extra vitamins. Not sure I'd want to add extra vitamins as we all know you can get too much of some of them and have problems.


My main problem is all the carbs in commercial fish feed. It's designed as a high energy diet for trout that are constantly swimming against the current in a race way. Our more sedentary species in the ponds end up getting too many carbs and develop the fatty tissue not only in the liver. I believe it shortens their life span vs. a fish on a natural diet. My healthiest fish get both a pellet and natural diet.

Well I plan to do something similar to that if I can get some special fish

Different species have vastly different requirements for proper nutrition. That was a topic at the last PB Conf. Unless a species has a large aquaculture following like Trout then manufacturers don't want to make a food specilized for that species. That is why we have generalized feeds like most on the market. The exception is special trout feeds , Aqua Max carnivore feeds (400 , 500 ,600 etc) and Aqua max LMB pellets for LMB (also works good for bigger HSB).

There's no such thing is a stupid question. The question may be silly, but always have a point of validity. Mercury is bio-accumulated at the liver first, and what the organs can't expel from the body, it's deposited into the muscles. Mercury content is minute in concentration, which can be toxic at a high quantity. USEPA regulates 0.0001mg/L in drinking water, because we're exposed to the water source on a daily basis, accumulating over the course of our life time. What is found in fish is to be estimated with a consensus consumption of a fillet, consists of 2oz per day, 3 times a week, for the rest of our lives. Mercury level found in the deep ocean fishes, such as tuna, marlin, or even whale's meat, is three times higher than the drinking water standards, but still way below atmospheric deposition (settling of mercury from the sky) and ambient natural standards (what already exist in nature). So, playing with soil, you already have your mercury load on your hands, and awaiting to be consumed. Breathing the air, you're already exposed to your maximum standard of mercury intake. In answering your question, for us to do an outcry about mercury being loaded into the food sources via fertilizers harvested from the ocean floor, or from deep ocean fisheries, it's uncalled for. As long as we eat proper loads of antioxidants-rich food, drink plenty of water for the liver and kidneys to flush out the mercury bio-accumulation, and exercise to increase the chance of metabolic-compound exchanges via fluids, you have no fear of mercury being a poison to yourself. You know that accidentally breaking a fluorescent bulb and inhaled the vapor mercury will exceed your mercury consumption of food sources by 5 years? So, where's the worry? This is speaking from a point view of an environmental scientist.

Remember, every has a base foundation of micro and macro nutrients from somewhere, let it be either from plants or microorganism, such as the plankton. The food chain become more complex as it goes up to the apex predators. But, every starts out at the base of the food chain, which supports the tip of the pyramid. We need to look into the self sustaining and foraging method, especial in the pond's that we're using. I may be day dreaming, but it's achievable with a bit of diligence.

Cecil, I LOVE YOU MAN! Finally, I have one on board with me. Look at the filler being added. Vitamins are added, but it's at a waste. Why? Because fish can obtain all the vitamins need via the plants, sunlight, invertebrates, suspended soils, as well as the foods they're foraging. A few mealworm, crickets, or waxworms will be more than sufficient for the entire day worth of vitamins. Vitamins are needed concrete pond/liner pond/tank/aquarium fishes. That I can understand. But an integrated pond with everything to offered by mother nature?

Carbs are good during the initial developmental stages. But come on, do they need more carbs once they reach full maturity? It's like we're loading ourselves up with carbs and fats, then expect not to be fat and unhealthy.

If you want them to bite like you're tossing cocaine to them, try a small amount anhydrous betaine with the dry mix, or just a small amount of it to wet mix. Look at the ingredients for all the feeds. There are plenty of attractants that derived from the natural betaine compounds that drive the fishes into a frenzy. There are a few other gustatory stimulants that I can offer to you which will drive the fishes crazy. I use them in my fishing baits during spawning season.

The Centrarchidae food options is not as demanding due to the lack of growers, breeders, and private owners as you have mentioned. However, it doesn't mean that there's no manufacturer designed formulation for the species without proper scientifically approaching it. Look for producer that incorporate krill-shrimp meals into the soft/hard pellets for exotic aquarium fishes. An example is this site. They carry brands from companies that actually infused deep ocean krills and shrimps, rather than pushing for fillers and binders, with high loads of proper proteins. Reformulation can be done quite easily on your own based on your requirements. Like I said, it doesn't take much to make your own feeds. It's about how diligent you want to be in raising your own ultimate fishes. I would love to share my info and experiment with you to find that specific tailored ratio. I wish I can attend the PB Conference I received in the mail, but work and family here restrict me from traveling too far.

It would be nice to get a summary of the conference so I can get into the nitty gritty details. I will be graced by your elite group one day..one day..I think I will bore you all to death with my questions as I thirst for more knowledge.

Interesting points Cecil. It is my understanding that Channel Cats (and I assume other catfish) can sustain liver damage when fed the higher protein feeds used for finned fish such as BG and LMB.

Of course, if they are being raised as a put and take table food, there should be no concerns regarding their long term health.

Dave, think about it for a moment. Would you eat a farm raised trout that taste like a fatty blob (not like bacon of course) or a nice firm tender piece of fillet that taste sweet? I've tasted the different between farm raised catfish and the wild ones. I will never go back to farm raised cats again. I rather hunt for them. The meat is much more firm, and taste so much sweeter and better.

Same goes for the panfish, specially gills. Would one raise massive quantity of gills that taste like a glob of fat, or would you like firm piece of fillet with good quality? I'll probably get blasted with comments saying, "We'll grow low quality for common market, and high quality for interested market.." or "Like any one would know.." But seriously though, if you want to sell something to the mass, I think the guy that sells higher quality, lower quantity, at a higher price will wipe you clean for selling lower quality, at large quantity, at a lower price. Yes, macro-economic calculations won't pan out with my reasoning, but consumers' taste buds and finicky personalities will trump the macro-economic calculations in the long run, just like it has always been since man had established trades.

For curiosity in terms of using pellet food as fish bait, has anyone ever used spray attractants on the actual pellets to help with the feeding frenzy?

leo you mentioned to Cecil: try a small amount anhydrous betaine with the dry mix, or just a small amount of it to wet mix. How would you go about doing this? Looking at this from a standpoint of catching more fish on pellets., or making pellets even more attractive to the fish.

Beastman, spray attractants have been known to contain 7 different chemical compounds found in nature to initiate feeding frenzy, a well as lockjaw. I know all 7, and a few extra over the years of making baits for different fresh and salt waters, in different elevations, as well as different salinity levels. Plenty of notes and experimentation time logged over the decades. So, yes, spray attractants will work if you spray on pellets, as the compounds trigger a response as the compounds diffused in the water.

For dry mix, add 1/4 teaspoon and dissolve in 2 to 3 cups of warm water. Stir until the crystal dissolves. Only use 1/4 teaspoon to every 1lbs of dried pellets in a container. Any more, it will create a frenzy that may disrupt biological feeding period as long as 2 days because the compound will saturate the area, causing them to await for more feeds from you. Use your bare hand, mix the solution into the dry mix little at a time to cover the dry feeds. You can toss the mix directly when done, or let it dry back up for later usages.

I've experimented with 1/2tspn in the past using corn kernels, and the results were not..well..let's just say it's fun to watch but not fun on your conscience. Carps and cats accidental swallowed other smaller fishes that fed on the kernels, followed up with lockjaw. We laughed at first, but what remained after 8 hours wasn't a pretty sight.

Brilliant, IMO.

Thanks Leo, I might try the anhydrous betaine on dry pellets combination to see if I can get some hook smart fish to bite. I have noted the dosage, to avoid the issues you describe. I am fishing an area with Hybrid striped bass that are pellet trained but are very hook smart....I assume what you described above in adding these ingredients make the fish more aggressive and active....

Besides using anhydrous betaine is there an attractant on the market today that could produce simliar results by spraying on the pellets?

I know matching the hatch is important with both look /smell/ taste but I am assuming by adding this ingredient the fish might become more active/aggressive increasing chances of caught fish.

Leo, a quick search on e-bay showed Betaine anhydrous, Reagent 98%, 100g $44.99 in Japan.

Is there a more economical source in the States?

Is 2g per 1/2 tsp about right?

Not sure if this forum allows me to post compounds to initiate aggressive behaviors for feeding. Bruce?! Dave? Ewest? Moderators? If I get the go ahead, I would be glad to post on the attractant compounds with dosage sizes.

However, you're smacked on about the look, smell, and tastes. Salt and fish oil is the primary trigger to smell. Texture of chitin, proteins, amino acids, and salt cause the temporary lockjaw for consumption to prevent engulfment. Attractants cause the initiation and reinitiation of primary and secondary strikes, while allowing jaw muscle relaxation during the process.

Esshup, careful about buying anhydrous betaine off ebay. You may get a load of caffeine that looks like betaine, which can be detrimental to the fishes.

As for the reagent at 98%, of 100g at $45, you're talking about the 5M concentration at purity. Pretty strong stuff. You only need less than 0.5g to initiate a massive response. You only need the common 2M concentration, which cost about $10 to $15 per 100g. Another name for the compound you can find is called trimethylglycine. That may bring up a better deal for you.

As for teaspoon to gram, it's roughly 4.6g to 5.3g to 1tspn, based on density of the material you're measuring. So, yes..about 2g is about there for the basic 2M concentration of betaine.

Thanks. So then something like this might work as well?

Leo, I know of no reason that the site would bar any idea/bait/idea or voodoo concoction that would help us catch fish. My Daughters once barred the Grandkids from going around the outdoor area where I was seasoning my catfish blood bait and secret sauce concoctions.

On the catfish thread I was mainly referring to those who like to rise catfish large enough to identify, adopt and give names to. In other words, their long term health.

I agree with DD1 -- post ahead Leo.

E try TMG search

WOW! 1kg? You must be doing some major brewing there esshup. I don't know the concentration just based on the mother's site info and the eBay description. I would say it's between the concentration of 0.5M to 1.5M, without them saying for sure. Human consumption is also ranged at that level. The warning posted is of 0.5M to 1M level. 5M, the warning is even more alarming printouts.

Now, if you're planing to use betaine that you get from this seller, please, start with 1/2tspn. SLOWLY induce more each time if the real concentration is indeed of the 0.5M to 1.5M. 1/4tsp a time in each experimental. Remember, a little goes a long way!

Alrighty, I might get flocked by the bait industries for this, but, hey..all is fair in love and free info. From basic to more compound advancement. Remember, these ingredients were and still are in used by quite a bit of bait makers, pellet manufacturers, and of course, the DYI bodies:

* Liver Powder/Paste: not just good in French sandwiches, but also attract the living daylight out of the fishes. When an injured fish of small sizes bleed, guess what, the hormone secret the fight or flight released by the liver get pumped through the blood. Big fishes smell, follow, and gobble gobble.

* Ground anchovy/krill (whole and dried), krill meal, and small dried shrimp meal: Necessity starts from the smaller creatures. You guys feed them baitfish ground, such as freshwater shads and minnows. Great. But do you know that freshwater fish has a higher affinity to saltwater creatures? Why do you think bait company and pellet manufacturer load salty content as part of the ingredients?

* SALT: too much, not good..stick creatures from the salt like the ones above. 1 cup of olive oil soaked in ground anchovy OR ground krill/shrimp, with 3tbspns of garlic, will yield a potent attractant that will lure the most stubborn fish out of hidden during warm seasons.

* Fresh ground kelp, or in this case, kelp powder: yep..not only it contain macro and micro nutrients that the fish looks for, but also it contain various trace of attractant, such as betaine. Some company over process the kelp during powderizing phases that it caused the original kelp to lose most of the nutrients and attraction ability. I normally go to the Asian store, grab a nice bag of dried kelp leaves,go home, put in the juice extractor machine or a very powerful blender, and ground the living daylight out of the dried leaves. You can incorporate the rehydrated version of the leaves into the ground moist foods for your fish during pellet making.

Now, for a bit more complex compounds:

Shell fish extracts: normally in form of oil after processing stages. Do not purchase the oils that contains decaying shellfish tissues. The oil will drive away the fish.

Animal tissue extracts: Same as shell fish extracts, which containing amino acids, betaine, inosine, organic acids dimethyl-B-propiothetin and amino nitrogen. I do this through methods of distillation in my garage, and when I can, The Lab. Let's just say the smell can be obnoxious, but the results will be femme fatale attractions to fishes.

Common responding agents to integrate: alkaline and neutral substances such as glycine (the betaine/trimethylglycine), proline, taurine, valine.

Aspartic and glutamic acids: It's found in plants that fish seek out for refuge. It's an auto-reponse compound found in nature that fishes tend to detect, observe, shelter, then forage. If no structure is found, they forage before search for the next shelter point. I also notice that turpenes and turpenoids at low level (derived from an experiment which I use to pine sap to create a non-impaling livebaits approach and local DFG Christmas tree dumped into the water to create habitats) attract fish quite quickly. Fishes will use the structures producing the turpenes and turpenoids within a week.

Amino acids proven to initiate gustatory system response: Proline (Pro), alanine (Ala), leucine (Leu), 2-amino-3-guanidinopropionic acid (Agp), and once again, betaine (Bet). High concentration of these amino acids initiate violent feeding, or feeding frenzy. Extremely high concentration create lockjaw after initial feeding without secondary re-initiation of feeding.

Okay..I'm boring you guys. Have fun deciphering what I just wrote.

A bunch of information for sure, thanks...

I found the below on a Carp fishing/ pellet site. They add these to attract carp, keep them feeding....I assume it would work for most pellet trained fish as well....Some you mentioned as well...your thoughts on these? ...


1. Casein
Casein is the main protein in milk. It can be used to make baits high in protein. It comes as a dry ingredient.
The major benefit to using casein in your bait is it has a good smell which will attract carp to eat food containing casein. It can also be good for binding together other ingredients in the bait.

2. Calcium Caseinate
This ingredient is brilliant all-rounder for making baits with. It usually makes up a third of the boilie mix and therefore provides the bait with good protein levels. It gives bait a good taste and has plenty of attractive smells to leak out in the water. It also, has some decent binding properties, and it provides some nutrition for carp.

3. White Fish Meal
White fish meal is another top ingredient when making boilies. It contains threonine and phenylalanine, both are essential nutrients. White fish meal has good attraction properties; both smell and taste. This is why it can be a good all-year round bait.

4. Anchovy
Anchovy included bait mixes creates a great flavour for high attraction properties. It also provides some nutrition towards carp’s diet.

5. Robin Red
This is one of the top ingredients to include in any bait. It has accounted for numerous big carp captures over the years. It has excellent attraction properties, including a high smell and a taste carp would die for!
Robin Red is an incredibly successful ingredient made from a blend of bird food, peppers and spices. It is bright red and will most colour baits deep red. It is an attractant in its own right but its vitamin content also makes it a valuable food source, especially when added to protein mixes.




6. Liver Powder/Paste
This can be a fantastic additive to include any bait making mixture. The enzyme treated powder can be very effective for attracting carp, plus they love the taste of anything liver-based. Plus it is packed full of nutrients that carp require every day. Liver powder is a very successful meaty fishing bait additive that most fresh water fish love. Use it in your paste or boilie mixes at a rate of up to 30g per 1kg of bait, or sprinkle into your groundbait or maggots for added attraction. Can be made into a paste by adding water or for an effective bait dip.

7. Minamino
One of the best bait making ingredients you can use. One tip I found was not to use it prior to boiling the baits. Instead, use 20ml/pound as a soak during drying stages.

8. Semolina
Semolina is made from wheat, it’s cheap, and can be used as the main ingredient in making boilies. Semolina along with soya flour can work as a binding ingredient when making boilies. They can also carry flavours very well so they’re good for attraction purposes and contain some good nutrition for carp. Full fat semolina, which is yellow, contains higher nutritional values for carp.

9. Egg Albumin
Egg albumin is a fantastic binding agent for use in making boilies. It also provides carp with high nutritional value.

10. Betaine
Betaine is a highly soluble crystal extracted from sugar beet molasses during sugar production. It has long been recognized as a primary feeding stimulant by fish farmers as it improves the fish's appetite and the rate of digestion and absorption of nutrients. By applying Betaine to your fishing bait you will not only attract more fish but will improve its food value as well. This is perfect for when you are regularly fishing a water as the fish will come to realize that your bait is good for them and will actively look for it. Mix in with any bait, but do so sparingly as this is powerful stuff.

11. Yeast Extract Powder
A fine powder that is highly nutritious with a particularly high vitamin content. It is an extremely good binder and can be used to hold groundbaits together or to act as a binder in boilie mixes. The yeast is deactivated so that you can use it to fairly high levels without your baits suddenly fermenting and going off. If you are using a CSL based product it is an excellent addition. CSL contains small amounts of natural yeast so adding more yeast will just boost the power of CSL even higher.

12. Kelp Powder
Kelp powder is an incredibly successful fishing bait ingredient made from seaweed. It is loaded with the vitamins and minerals that fish love. It naturally contains the fish attractant Betaine so it will really pull fish into your swim. Use it in your boilie and paste mixes at a rate of 20g per 1kg of bait.

I soaked some pellet sized chunks of brown foam in the fish oil vitamin liquid. It looked perfect. Even when I was feeding they stayed away from it.

DD1, fish oil, unless purified from decaying matters, it's considered as gastatory suppressant. Similar to when you ground composting worms into it mix, you get response from cats (which feed on decaying matters), but carps and other fishes, they will run far way from it.

beastman, you're dead on about the ingredient for carps. They are primarily vegetarian, but they have a higher protein affinity than that of the bass, trout, and gill that I've experimented over the year. A bit into the insights:

Egg albumin, semolina, minamino, calcium caseinate, and casein are binding agents, also providing protein-loading. They can be left as a moist or soil version, and when induced with a bit of heat, they will form a "cake" harden, with trapped aerated protein, allowing the so called boilies to float. Look into the bags dog and cat foods. Same principle applies for a high aeration to the food pellets during extrusion. The harden pellets, containing high proteins, support pet's growth in according the formulas, but also clean their teeth without heavy deposits in the gum line. It's one of the discovered side effects.

Kelp powder (long been discovered by the Asians), yeast extract powder (vitamins noted by the breweries), robin red (noted by the UK carp's association), white fish meal (filler more than a food source), and liver powder (blood particles contain iron and flight/fight hormones..see the 2nd post from the top about dried animal blood cell in the ingredients), all experimented on different levels. Remember, these are just ingredients for attractants and feeds. There is no specific set recipe for every known species. This is where tailoring of recipes comes in.

Ready for the fun?

Leo, that seller had different quantities, that's just the one that I grabbed. The fish in my pond aren't that wild about the pellets. Maybe because of the natural food, or maybe because they were never pellet trained.

Thanks for the warning, it will be heeded!

esshup, if you need me to work with you to get a formulation down for the pellets, let me know. However, the attractant combo that you're using with the pellets may be enough to motivate them to eat. If even at high concentration they're unwilling to feed on the pellets, that mean there may be plenty of natural food source that they're preferring over the pellets. If that's the case, we may have to do some formulation method to train them.

By chance esshup, are you feeding the pellets for your own private stock or are you experimenting them for some other purposes? Just want to know so I don't give you advices to over fattening them too fast due to overeating habit.

Leo, if a person had access to an extruder, what would be your secret recipe for a bluegill and/ or a yellow perch pellet? Do you have a recipe? And thanks for the clarification on the mercury situation. I was at the Texas coast, and was at a fish market.They made it sound like the smooth skinned fish were almost "toxic for human consumption". I try real hard not to be scared of the boogie man.:)

Back to the pellet. There's a feed company local to here that can extrude is why I ask. Would be interesting to try. Thanks for joining the forums!

James, if you do have an access to one, HOLY MOTHER OF PELLETS! I would love to provide you with some recipes, as well as experimental recipes. Bruce and the pond masters would love to be part of your inner circle to try it out.

Before I start filling your head with recipes of sorts, please, ask the person who has the extruder these questions:

1. Does the machine only take dry grounded form for pellet creation or does the machine has an oven plate/moisture extractor to remove liquid during the compression process?

2. Can the machine maintain moist form of pellets for extruding processes?

3. What pellet forms can the machine produce, such as elongated cylindrical, short cylindrical, or spherical?

4. What is the compression rate does the machine has through its auger?

Just want to know what the recipe will come out correctly. If the machine removes too much liquid, which the recipe calls for moist condition, it defeats the purpose. We may have to rely on different approach to infuse macro and micro nutrients via dried form rather than liquid form. Attractants are much more effective when it's moderate released in the water by incorporating into the moist pellets. Dry form is a bit less effective, unless the fish get trained.

I will call tomorrow!

So if you were only going to fish a spot that uses pellets for a few days would any of these ingredients be worth adding to the normal pellets? Fishing for hybrid striped bass.

Does adding the below create an instant feeding freenzy or does it take time to develop over days/weeks? Note: The fish are already trained on the normal pellets, and has decent fishing pressure so the fish are very hook-smart. I'm just thinking if I can add something to these pellets to make them worry less about getting hooked....

Amino acids proven to initiate gustatory system response: Proline (Pro), alanine (Ala), leucine (Leu), 2-amino-3-guanidinopropionic acid (Agp), and once again, betaine (Bet). High concentration of these amino acids initiate violent feeding, or feeding frenzy. Extremely high concentration create lockjaw after initial feeding without secondary re-initiation of feeding.

Thanks Leo. I'm feeding AM500/600 to the fisn in my own pond. I stocked feed trained LMB last year, and they feed well on the pellets, as do the trout that were stocked in October. The BG were sourced from a local lake, and they are the ones that are very tentative about eating the pellets. They were like that before stocking the feed trained LMB (meaning tht they were not bullied away from the food by other fish).

I use a battery powered directional feeder, and feed at the same time every day. There are BG in the pond from YOY to 10"+. Those BG have been in the pond for 5-6 years and have never been agressive pellet eaters

If your striped bass have been trained to feed on pellets, then it's be extremely effective to add the additional ingredients. But that's cheating?! LOL If they are not trained to feed on pellets, then the floating compounds from the pellets will attract them like a free buffet dinner bell.

Since you fish have been trained, and hook shy, it will encourage them to feed without thinking. However, as you indicated, it may take a day or two, or even up to one week for them to reprogram their minds. The reason is, if they're getting their meals constantly, they're not worry about going hungry. If they have forage materials readily for additional feeding, they will shy away from feeding in a zone where hooks may be lurking. However, feeding in the zone where you'll be dropping hooks later, while tempting them to go into feeding frenzy now, they will reprogram themselves very quickly. Imagine kids that like the cookies on the kitchen counter go against all your warnings not to touch the cookies, even though they know they will get spanked if they do touch the cookies. The kids will grab the cookies anyway, and if caught, they are willing to get the punishment due to the cookies are so good and enticing. Fish and human mindset are of the same caliber.

Scott, if your BG have been in the pond that long, and not being aggressive to feed on pellets, two things come to mind. Either the BG have plenty of forage materials, or they are out fed by the other groups. If the new formulation and attractants are added, the other groups may still be more aggressive than the BG. If that's the case, you may need to shift your feeding supplement to something more natural based on the time of year. Cheap mealworms, waxies, and crickets perhalf?

Leo, I think it's more of the former rather than the latter. There are still pellets floating around after the LMB are full. If I feed straight AM500, the LMB aren't as interested and leave enven more pellets uneaten. I can see BG swimming around pecking at the pellets, and even sucking in and then spitting out the pellets, although the pellets are small enough for them to eat. This year the LMB should be large enough to easily eat Purina LMB sized pellets. In a friends pond, even with LMB and HSB jumping all over the pellets, the BG are feeding vigorously on the pellets that are pushed away from the area where the larger predators are feeding.

The BG in the pond don't exibit the body characteristics that BG do that feed heavily on pellets (helmet head, thick bodies). They have some of them, but not to that extent. Then again, it could be a genetic thing too. I have introduced some BG that have better genetics, and were pellet trained, but I'm not sure how many actually survived LMB predation.

Hm..looks like the BG that are not feeding on the pellets have a natural taste to other type of formulation. Curious though, are the BG that feed on the pellets the same strain as the ones that do, from the same BG supplier perhalf? Or are they transplanted from one pond to another?

This is so interesting.

Leo, bad news. The feed mill no longer has their extruder. It was having problems about 3 years ago, was old and too expensive to repair. They do have a pellet mill, and do custom pellet making.They take dry ingredients,add steam, and the mill spits out cylindrical shaped pellets. The guy told me, that as far as he knows, there's no good formula for making a floating fish feed with a pellet mill, as all the air is forced out. There's a place in Nebraska though that does custom extruding, but sounds like a 25,000 lb minimum.

Would pellets still be good for creating a fry feed? I could make a pellet, and build a roller, and crush pellets.

James. Thanks for the update. Looks like I have to find someone with a hand crank version of a meat grinder with pasta extruder locally for testing.

The pellet, may be wet or dry, will still float. The moist version just need a bit of an extra protein component to make it float. However, dry ingredients will definitely float, regardless of air or no air bubbles. We just have to figure out how much air is being forced out, versus the density of the dry weight compaction.

Others can chime in on this about feeding pellets to the little fry. I don't own a pond. I'm just a mad scientist love doing field works, experimentation both at home and work, and take lots and lots of notes of all sorts. Bruce, Cecil, Scott, and a few others in here are en masse pond owners. They will have great insights for you. If they indicate fry eat pellets, rather than a roller, you can just use a meat grinder, mix the materials together, and grind them into segments that's no more than 1mm in length, and 0.5mm in diameter. Plenty of options.

Leo, I will send you a private message.

Leo, the majority of BG in my pond were sourced from a local lake, and haven't seen a pellet before being stocked into my pond. The lake was last stocked by the DNR in 1969. I stocked a couple hundred YOY BG from Cecil 2 years ago, but with the predators in the pond I doubt enough survived to make a difference. They were stocked right before the winter, so there was little cover for them to hide in for a number of months and their growth in that time would have been minimal.

Leo, I ordered 250g of the stuff, I'll report on any changes that I see. How much of the trimethylglycine should I add to, say, a pound of floating pellets?

I have a gram/grain scale that will read to 0.1 grain (7,000 grains in a pound).

Scott, I'm suspecting you got the 2M concentration. Try 1tspn per lb of dry mix first. Make sure to add it into the warm water, stir well to fully dissolve, then either sprinkle the solution over the dry pellets, or mix into your own ingredients. Let me know of the reaction first before dumping more of the TMG into the solution.

Thanks Leo. I'll hydrate the pellets like Cecil is doing and report back on how the fish take to them vs. the non-treated, non-hydrated pellets.