Hello All - I’ve been lurking here for a bit as I prepare to build a half acre pond. It is located in NW AR where the soil is horrible , and per the NRCS guy, ponds in Benton County AR over 6’ have a 50/50 chance of holding water.......hence my hesitation thus far. I have however located some spectacular clay that is accessible close by and expect to use some 80 or so truckloads to use. We’ve selected the site that has some runoff.

My first (of many) is where can I go to get some pond bottom depth/despite depth ideas?
I don’t want to rush going too deep, and suppose I’d need/want shelves, trenches and varying depths. Any guidance here would be greatly appreciated. Ultimately it is for family fishing - I grew up in MS fishing Monster bass farm ponds and have have Read you can’t grow big bass in small shallow ponds but caught many-a lunkers out of the golf course 5’ deep ponds as a kid — so that’s in the back of my mind. . I have desires of a “beetle spin” pond to catch line ripping Coppernose (am I too far north for CBG?). Any thoughts or direction on where I could locate a pond bottom layout for ideas would be appreciated.

Thanks

Instead of LMB in a .43 acre pond, you might consider some hybrid stripers. The problem with bass is spawning and over eating the forage

A hardy welcome to the PB forum.
The pond design is close enough to the house for aeration that will produce better overall water quality so I would consider a minimum of 8ft depth and better if it was 10ft that allows for droughts and low water conditions and leaks. Many pond's water level is 2-3ft below top bank thus 8ft leaves you with 5-6ft of water. A leaky pond is a distinct possibility if less than optimum soils and poor building methods are used. Proper soil/clay is utmost importance in your case. A leaky pond usually costs as much or more to fix as to originally build the pond. Study this thread on pond building and proper soil compaction:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92487#Post92487
Many pond construction guys get is a hurry to finish and create too thick of soil lifts that are not properly compacted - thus leaks commonly occur. All soil bottom ponds leak, the degree of leakage is the big variable. There are also soil additives to reduce soil permeability pre and post pond building/filling.

A pond will accumulate sediments over the years to annually cause shallower depths, so plan for this to occur. Rate of fill in is dependent on water shed and fertility. Normal fill-in rate is 1" per year.

A smaller pond with a high fish biomass should have aeration to optimize water quality. Adding depth in poor deep soil structure can be done by using up-ground embankment design. Be aware without very good compaction, not a wide enough embankment, and poor building methods many of these ponds leak. Up-ground ponds have no runoff to help keep them full.

IMO not a lot needs to be done to create "shelves, trenches and varying depths". These structure features IMO are designed for larger ponds to concentrate fish and not necessarily increase productivity. The small golf course ponds lacked structure where you caught large fish. So structure in small ponds is not really needed to grow big fish.
However in a 0.3-0.5 ac pond where can the fish go that you cannot reach them by angling? If you are not catching them, something is remiss. Many, many reasons for lack of angling success. Increasing productivity and producing big fish in small ponds can be achieved with feeding the fish &/or fertilizing together with proper fish management. Lower fish numbers usually results in bigger fish because they have more food available. Crowding decreases available food and stessors due to crowding and water quality.

For a small pond with great angling excitement consider the suggested HSB with hyb bluegill (HBG) and pellet feeding. This stocking method allows for a years later relatively easy shift to LMB-BG combination. Since you are from AK and have close access, you should research the relatively new HBG called the SSS southern specklebelly sunfish. These with HSB and pellet feeding, would create a exciting fishery. By all means keep us updated on your pond progress using this thread which could be the history and notes of your pond.

i greatly appreciate the replies....my dirt guy has a D5 dozer and a big trackhoe....no sheeps foot. sounds like i may need to rent one?
I have my own small 50 horse Kubota tractor...i suppose that i could perhaps rent one and drag it after the dirt guys are done over and over and over again.
so based on my small size, are you saying it is senseless to worry with shelves, varying depths, and/or trenches...and instead just "dig a 8-10' hole"?

based on the "math", their intent is now to use 10" layer of clay.

Thanks

I wish I had not renovated my pond without a roller. If it had cost $1,000 to rent and would have prevented the leaks, it would have been worth it. NOT AFTER construction, but DURING construction. Each one foot lift of clay needs to be individually rolled. I let my pond builder go ahead without one. They are hard to find around here, but with enough perseverance, it could be done. Please stop your dirt guy if he doesn't want to use a roller. Leaks are heartbreaking.

Wait for more replies from other members to get 2nd & 3rd opinions. In a small 0.5 ac shallow pond the adding of "shelves, varying depths, and/or trenches" will serve what purpose? One shelf along one side at 4 to 5 ft deep loaded with numerous added artificial structure items will be IMO be all you need to concentrate fish for angling. Ideally the structure amount should in total be about 25%-30% of the total shoreline. I would put all the structure on one side or two sides or maybe wrap it around a corner. Ask contractor if he knows where to get discarded large broken concrete pieces that when placed along a shoreline as riprap (best down wind on wave washed shore), down to 3-4ft deep will serve as good structure items and shoreline stabilization.



Remember shallow water is where all your algae and weeds will grow to cause management issues. Weeds do not grow in deep water unless that water is shallow and/or very clear.

Once you allow for 3:1 slopes in a 0.5 ac pond there is not a lot of room in the bottom for a trench. Your soil structure may not allow for a trench with any depth greater than 1 ft below the main bottom area. Overall long term, in a 0.5 ac a flat or sloped bottom toward one end is likely the best design. A trench in the bottom may not get good circulation in it from an aerator. A shallow trench will serve as a collection settling basin for sediments and dead organics in the bottom. The trenches that I have seen in shallow ponds soon become filled with organic muck/slop. The trench will soon likely be filled with unconsolidated sediments especially if the pond gets tree leaf inputs. Soon the trench is no longer not much of a trench. The circulation currents will likely move over the top of the trench and leave the trench with low DO conditions which slows decomposition unless you put the diffuser in the trench. Even then good water circulation may not occur in the trench.

good feedback - thanks.
i'll do 4-5' around the curved area....with a lined bottom on part of it with sand/pebbles out 20' or so from the edge then sloping to 8-10ft.

also in the open part of the "U", isolated from the main pond i will dig a 1' deep area isolated from water from the .5acre to make plantable with corn/millet for ducks/geese just for fun.

Game Day

Nice zero turn!

Yes I agree on the sheeps foot roller or packer. You can now get them remote controlled and run it your self.

i dont have good clay buy they are trucking in 40 loads of clay that was dug out of a pond a mile away. it is like modeling clay literally...hope it works. unfortunately the pond is just shy of .5 acre but all i can do. it is 4-5' deep on the corners of the kidney bean shape and will be 8-10' on one half or so at the back of dam. I am clueless and would welcome any suggestions to what you see here with regard to slope, shape, depth, etc.
We will get a sheepsfoot and roll it in after putting the clay down.

The sheepsfoot has to roll/compact the clay WHILE they are putting it down, not after. Best to do only one layer, compact, another layer, compact and repeat.

(perhaps this should now be in the FIsh Stocking thread?)

Well, the pond is in, but unfortunately water is not.
My pond holds about 4’ of water. Not sure if it is due to inadequate runoff ( which I know is not good) or a leak….or both.
Anyway, at this point I’m trying to make something out of nothing……so, am wondering with what I have it if is worth stocking with at least some BG of some sort for family entertainment (and/or other).
I have no intent on adding an aerator but do intend to feed the fish (suggestions?) and/or fertilize as necessary. The water size is roughly .33-.40 acres.

My ultimate goal for years was to have a place to catch bream on "beetle spins" with a few decent bass mixed in....but given the size/depth I'm uncertain.

Any suggestions on types and quantity of fish, or any other advise/direction would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry to hear about the lack of water, wish I could offer you some of my watershed, I have a bit too much.

I assume 4 foot of water is deep enough in your area to sustain fish.

If you are ready to make lemonade and are looking to stay with a light budget, I would suggest getting some FHM's in there right away, then consider the traditional BG, CC, LMB mix for next year. But if stocking costs aren't too big of a concern...I have enjoyed my HBG and HSB (and RES) pond so far. Feeding would be more important in this case.

I have no concern about budget - want the best fishing I can have. I’m not much on CC, and if it’s mean more bass with NO CC I’d certainly rather that route. Also trying to understand why one would prefer hybrid bluegill vs straight bluegill. Also prepared to fertilize, feed etc. no idea what fertilizer I should start with and am reading about the many types and opinions of feed. Have a Feeder on the way.

Thanks

I've never fertilized my pond but I think you want something with high phosphorus (second number on the bag).

I do feed. Started with Gamefish Chow but moved to Aquamax 400. Higher protein. I also supplement that with black Soldier fly larva.

The difference between the BG/LMB route and the HBG/HSB route has to do with their reproduction and recruitment rates. BG and LMB will reproduce a lot more than the HBG and HSB. HBG typically reproduce with the majority of the first and second generation being males while the HSB very rarely reproduce in ponds. This lack of reproduction does not create as much forage (baby gills) and is typically accompanied by feeding pellets to make up for the lack of forage. The possibilities of overcrowding and stunting should be reduced and requires less culling in trying to maintain a good pond balance.

Here's a quick thread on my first years success with the HSB in the pond...

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=38025&Number=494998#Post494998

This route is set up for growing larger gills while the HSB are really just there to help keep the HBG's under control without adding recruitment on the predator's part. My thoughts are to allow the original stocked fish to grow without much competition so that they "can be all they can be" while culling out HBG offspring that get too big for the HSB to eat. It's still a chore sometimes, but much less of one when compared to culling BG and LMB. Here's a massive read on growing bigger BG which is a better fit for smaller pond when compared to trying to grow larger LMB...

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=189988#Post189988

I plan to cull HSB for table fare on occasion and ladder stock them as I go. As far a the original HBG...we'll see how well their individual sizes go and their overall populations to determine if ladder stocking is required.

I did not stock CC and merely bumped up my HSB numbers....

My 1/4 acre pond received 500 HBG, 42 HSB, and 90 Res. So far so good. It's been about 14 months and the pond records are HSB = 1.6 pounds, 14.5" long and HBG = 1/2 pound. I believe their growth is due to the large population of FHM's that was achieved the year prior to stocking the gamefish.

Thanks for the detail.
The HSB story is absolutely exciting!

A few questions as I get more impatient about stocking it...
1. Earlier you mentioned that you put the FHM in the year before. is that necessary, OR, can you put them in at the same time as initial stocking?
2. # of HBG - you mention 500. on all the fish farm webistes i've visited that is grossly over the suggested qty for .25 avres. in fact, on the Harrison website http://harrisonfishery.com/stockCalculator.htm it suggested only 63 HBG. I have no intent of adding CC - so, does the increase in HBG offset the removal/absence of CC?
3. and finally, did you add the HSB at the same time as HBG? the place i'm getting them from don't appear to have HSB. Should I relce with LMB, or nah....and how many if so?
4. I'm a fan of starting bigger - any drawbacks to starting with 3-5" BG ( or HBG)instead of 1-3"?
5. What about adding Redear?

A "truck" is near Thursday of this week https://www.stockmypond.com/product_category/fish?state=ar and just trying to figure out what i need (and/or) if i'm ready.

any other thoughts of suggestions would be appreciated.

thanks

Keep in mind that my pond has not unfolded yet, but thus far, I am very happy with it...

I believe that giving the first year solely to the FHM's was key to my initial success. The FHM population went from a 35$ dollar bag (3-1/2 pounds) of fish to potentially gazillions. These fish spawned and those YOY matured into adults and spawned again and again. With gamefish stocked at the same time...those YOY FHM's would have been prey. The following year, I stocked 2 to 5 inch HBG which could only prey on the YOY of that year for the most part. The 42 HSB could prey on them all. Now, this year the HSB are preying on the adults and the HBG are preying on the YOY and medium sizes. This approach has given me two great years of natural forage with a potential third good year. I am afraid that if the FHM's and the game fish were stocked at the same time, the second year would be lacking and the third might be inconsequential. This is my guess. Of course, my goal was to grow some BIG HBG not necessarily to catch fish sooner rather than later. Side note: my pellet feed bill is likely a lot less due to the FHM's being the main course.

More later...

Good to know on why you put the FHM in the year prior. I don't think i'm that patient. What'd be wrong with adding more FHM's later in the year....and/or more next year if the concern would be that the initial batch was all eaten?

ALso - regarding Food, how long does a 50lb bag of food last in 1/4 acre? i've no idea how much would be fed per feeding...as i've seen drastically different feeding programs (length of time for it to be consumed) and frequency.

So, is this realistic for stocking :
HBD - 250ea 3-5" (or more)
RES - 100ea 1-3" (or more)
FHM - 3LBS
- And best place to purchase the food?


Feed - what works best?
Aquamax 500 50lb?
Optimal BLuegill 40lb
Carfgill 40-10

Thoughts on the above?

The place i'm getting them from does not carry HSB - SO, i suppose it'd be wise to NOT sub those for LGM...and instead wait and locate HSB later...right?

Thanks

Give your forage minnows a summer to make babies. You can buy them forever at $10/lb, or you can put $50 worth in and let them make $1000 worth of new ones. That's not to say adding minnows later is a bad thing, but 10lbs of FHM tossed into a pond with predators will be gone before you know it. If you have a spot to build a forage pond you can grow your own for a constant supply.

I had originally planned to install RES and YP this spring at the same time my minnows went in. Due to weather and water conditions no RES or YP went in, but the minnows did. 45 days later there are literally clouds of minnow fry everywhere, with new clouds showing up about every ten days.

I'm thinking losing a growing season for the panfish will be more than made up in growth rates after they go in, and my spending on pellet feed will be minimal next year due to the ridiculous number of minnows that are in there.

I abandoned all the fish farm recommendations that I contacted and stuck with the forum's suggestions. I think the the fish farms recommendations are geared for "one size fits all". I did run my plan by Kurt (Harrison) before buying my fish from him and he gave it his blessing once I told him my plans. AND, if you look at Harrison's Stocking Calculator, you will find that they are suggesting adding a lot more species to your pond. I merely substituted the BG number for HBG, CC for HSB, and tweaked from their.



The only drawback that I can think of to starting bigger is that few farms feed to grow their fish and larger fish may actually be older fish that have missed a year of good growth. If you are goinf to forgo the year of FHM only, I would consider going with larger fish, but I assure you, that year (or season) of FHM's would make up for starting bigger. My HBG went in at 3-5" long and by the end of the summer the record was 6" long and weighed 0.28 pounds. The recent record is now just over 1/2 pound (14 months later).



I would add redear (RES) to control snails which in turn reduces black spot disease (a parasite). I ended up adding 90 RES because Kurt gave me 40+ extra in fear that they might suffer the trip home in barrels. They did very well so I added them. My pond has ample snails and still has grub parasites.

One of my threads that lead me to the above advise...

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=37268&Number=486999#Post486999

I hesitate to advise on stocking numbers as my experience is very limited and it depends so much on all the variables. Your numbers look safe if your pellet feeding. The RES # may be excessive depending on your snail populations, but still safe (they eat other stuff).



I get my food straight from Optimal online, delivered to my door. No complaints at all.



I would source the HSB upon stocking the HBG. Those HBG will make babies the first summer and the YOY will need something (HSB) to keep their numbers in check. If you wait a year then you will want to stock larger HSB that can eat the larger second generation HBG. They are even harder to come by in a larger size.

LMB can and will take care of the YOY HBG and I would bet that they would run out of forage and overpopulate/stunt in a few years. This is not a bad thing if your goal is larger HBG, but the larger number of LMB would be taking up valuable capacity in your pond and you would miss out on that rare occasion when a HSB take your drag out and heads to the other side of the pond.

Awesome -its fun to learn more and more.
Ok - last thing,,,,for now. how much to feed, how frequent, and how long does a #50 bag of food last. DO you have feed or have timer set for X seconds?

And do i need "BLuegille pond feed" or "junior pond feed" from Optimal?

i got this feeder.
https://www.amazon.com/Wildgame-Innovations-Profile-Directional-Feeder/dp/B001RDXSXA


I have read that you feed only between 60-90 degrees?

A 50/50 mix of the Starter #4 and Junior was great for my 3-5" HBG the first year. The #4 was for the smaller of the stocked HBG. I have switched to Bluegill only now because it is slightly larger and better suits my HBG that are likely 5-7" now. So, what you choose has everything to do with the size of fish you are feeding.

Rule of thumb is to feed only the amount that the fish will consume in 15 minutes. I think opinions vary as I have heard as little as a few minutes and my fish seem to really take their time, up to 30 minutes, but 15 seems to be the most popular. I had to start by hand feeding as my re-purposed feeder would throw too much at first. Once the fish got into the habit, I started using the auto feeder and it still throws a bit much in my opinion.

I start hand feeding the fish in the spring about the time the water hits 60F, but they do not take to it right away so the amounts are much smaller. I have NOT witnessed my fish NOT eating due to higher water temps. Feed the fish if they will eat and stop feeding when the stop eating.

My auto feeder was throwing about a 1/3 pound last year once a day and I hand fed occasionally, even tried to auto feed in the morning for a month, give or take. I went through most of 80 pounds last year.

Have you considered trying Soilfloc to get it to hold water better? Maybe you can do some work to your watershed to get better run off. That is what I plan to do.

QA has more time with this than I do but I'm feeding Jr. and 3" fish are taking the smaller pieces without issue. I have noted YP to 12" along with YP down to 3", BG of all sizes and surprisingly, I have RES coming to feed. I have a feeling the Jr. is well utilized and is a few % higher in protein that straight BG.

Well, we stocked the pond yesterday.
We ended up going with 300 HBG, 80 RES, 3 Grass carp, and 4lb of FHM.
my 9yo just couldn't stand it, and i couldn't say no.....and, by the time they'd swam across the pond he had a hook in the water. I thought surely he was wasting his time, but it was fun to see. He caught one worm in the flower bed and was determined to try it. He ended up catching 5 on the worm, and ran out of worm and was frustrated....and swiped the head off of a waist high strand of wheat that was all around the pond ( from dove season Last year) next to him and threw it in the water. Fish attacked it.....then his little brain went to work, and he pulled another and used the "husk" ( so to speak) and put it on the hook and caught 6! The Fish Food should arrive Monday or Tuesday.

I didn't call in my order soon enough to order HSB, but will put about 25-30 in as soon as i can get my hands on some.

ALso, with the flash floods today, the rain today raised the water level about a foot.

I'm still chuckling 10 minutes after reading your post. That must be one very happy 9 yr old! 60 years ago I was his age; I fondly remember the fish I was catching way back then. Your pond will be a treasure for him.

I can't think of a better reason for having a pond than a 9 year old.

Update -

Feeding -
I've been feeding Optimal Jr for a few weeks now, and is going well. I feed by hand about 1/2 cup a day and there are a bunch of waiting mouths when i start to throw. When i step on the pier, i can see them racing to the end...kinda funny actually. They will hit anything....and i've limited by 9yo to catching only 4 per day - with a tiny barbless hook. So far there have been no fish hurt ( that we can tell) and kids is having a blast.

Grass/Moss - it is getting worse. i suppose it is the grass layer on the bottom that is dying and floating up. it is all submerged about 1' under the surface. I suppose i'll have to get in and rake it out.

ANyone suggest any chemical, dye, or other to knock it out? or, regardless would i have to get in and remove the dead moss anyway?

Water Level - we had tons or rain in mid June - the pond is down some 10" or so since then....and...i'd guess has lost 3" or so in the past few weeks. I don't have alot of depth so every inch is valuable.

Hybrid Striped Bass - i've not yet put them in but will do so soon.
given my HBG were 1-3" when i put them in, is there a size HSB that i should NOT exceed now in putting in? i was told by the fish farm that they have all sizes. i don't want them to eat ALL my freshly stocked HBG and RES, so what size HSB should i order? please advise.

I would stay under 5 inches long and 4" or shorter would be better. IIRC correctly, a 5" long HSB will have a mouth gape of about 1/2". A 1" long panfish can't be much taller that 1/2".

Also FYI on a weekend project to improve water runoff.
we dug a "trench" so to speak on a down hill section that should catch 3-4 acres of runoff, and hopefully make it down the pond. I rented a laser level, and dropped it gradually for 300' or so. now it probably wont rain until February....but it's better late than never.

10 month update after stocking small pond - All is well with regard to catching fish for fun, entertainment, and dog training. The goal all along was to have a trophy "bream" pond for my kids and me.

Catching Fish - The "go to" bait is a 1/16" Pink and green Roostertail for artificial or Gulp artificial worms (can catch tons on the same 3/4" piece.) Also i often use a dry fly ( it looks just like a hairy Optimal pellet and slay em'.

Water Level - Unfortunately I've determined that my water level will never be more than about 5' deep, as I have a leak obviously somewhere. After a huge rain it rises, then within a week it's back to where it stays most of the time. Given the low water level, the surface area is much smaller than i anticipated it'd be. I did get a dozer in the fall and create a 100 yard berm in the field that funnels massive amounts of runoff into the pond....which gives a nice temporary water rise after a big rain, only for it to go down again.

Stocking - as noted, on 6/22/19 I stocked 300 BG and 100 RES to start. The BG were supposed to have been HBG...but i got the switcharoo (actually a mistake by the driver, and i didn't know any better). Once i determine the error, on 8/22/19 i added in 300 HGB. IN Fall 2018 I added about 15 3-4" mutts taken from a neighbors farm pond. Since that time i've been catching, trapping, netting all the BG i can and have been removing them from the pond. ALso on 8/22/19 i added 21 4-6" HSB. Shortly after adding those HSB, we caught one about a week later on a worm....and, since that time have NOT seen one. I added a few SMB last fall - not sure if they made it or not, but added 2 more 2 weeks ago. Total luck and would never happen again, but literally the next day i went out and the first case to the left of the pier I caught a SMB...as as we ooh'd and ahh'd let it go and still grinnin' ear to ear threw the second cast to right of the pier and caught another SMB. I'm guessing both were what i'd tossed in the previous day given their size - and both were extremely poor/skinny looking. Also about a month ago i added one 14" channel cat and a 8" LMB in hopes of helping me control the excessive BG (and to hopefully get a bonus bite every now and then)



Feeding - i feed about a 10oz cup full by hand daily of Optimal. When riding up the pond in the Ranger, I can literally see wakes from all sides racing to the pier. A handful is literally gone in 2 seconds...if the entire cup was scattered out evenly it is all 100% gone in 1 minute.

Grass - i still have a total grass/weed cover on the bottom. As water level decreases and it gets hotter, i'd expect it to grow. I have 3 grass carp in there now, but no way they could control it.

Questions -
1. BG - Should i continued to catch and remove ALL the BG i can ? Occasionally we catch a 6" chunky BG and my 10yo has a hard time removing it due to the size . two decent sized BG are in attached pix.
2. HSB - as noted, since adding them in August, we've not seen or caught one since. I have only seen one dead, and that was the next day after stocking...and have never seen any fish eating birds handing around. I'd LOVE to know IF/WHERE they are. Any thoughts? I've thrown a cast net all around it multiple times and have never a HSB! (nor have i caught a RES for that matter)
3. Bullfrog Tadpoles - I have LOADS of them....i can put out a small 2' minnow trap, and the next day have 25-30 3" bullfrog tadpoles in it. is this good, bad, indifferent?? ALso to note, over the past 2 weeks there are thousands of tiny 1/2" black ( assume a new hatch of bullfrog tadpoles?) all the way around the edge of pond. Will the BG/HBG ( of HSB, or LMB ?) that are in there ( if they are still?) eat the tiny new 1/2" tadpoles?
4. Feeding - given that my fish devour the pellets when thrown in, it seems rather obvious that I'm not feeding enough...however, most of them are little fatties. Should i feed more, or make them "live" a little on their own and no be so dependant on pellets?
5. The largest fish in the pond now are from the mutts ( i suppose) that i put in Fall18, considering most of the have big "yellow bellies", unlike any of the BG or HBG that i stoked. ALso as seen in one of the pics attached, some have yellowish/orangish edges around their fins...these are very easy to spot in the water, and are alway present at feeding time - are the fattest and have big mouths. Any harm in leaving them in the pond of should they be removed? I'm pretty sure (?) 2 of the pix attached are those fish. The HBG stocked in Aug 19 I'd not think would be that big by now.
6. Grass i expect to grow - should i add baby crawfish to work on the grass, or more carp?

Attached are a few recent pix.

Adding a feeding video from this morning....hand feeding, teasing and throwing a handful at a time.

https://vimeo.com/413688259

Not positive but I think some of those fish are jumping to get the feed before it even hits the water.