I've started an apple orchard a few years ago in Upstate New York. We currently have 240 trees planted with another 150 being planted in April 2016. After this springs scheduled planting, I will have pretty much ran out of good dry land in my field. So, this summer I plan on having the rest of my field tiled. I would love to be able to run my tile drainage right into a pond and use that pond for irrigation of the orchard. I recently had a tile drainage company come out and take a look at the field and see what they have to say. They stated they would place the tile in the field about 4' down. An 8" main line coming straight from the road, and 4" lines every 30' going into the main line. The main line will drain into the pond, with an outlet on the opposite side. The question I have is if the main line is 4' down, then it will enter my pond about 3' below the surface of the water. My question is, is this possible. I want the water surface to be about 1' below the bank. Will the water drain and rise above the inlet if it is 3' below the bank?

Welcome Danpshack!

I have no idea, but lots of smart people around.

Good luck with your palantings.

Cmm

Here is the layout of the field with the pond and tile drainage.

Ok, so I figured this photo thing out, here is another diagram I drew up. Will this pond fill up with the inlet being 3' below the top of the pond?

Shoot a horizontal line from where the full pool will be in the pond, back up the drain field. Water will not run back uphill, but it will seek it's own level. It might back up into the tile if the upper part of the tile gets a lot of water. It would only back up to the level of the overflow of the pond.

It might back up higher if the pond sees a lot of surface runoff from the field too.

Also, with this type on pond source, is this configuration my only option, any ideas would be helpful!

The only option I see is to dig the pond deeper and use a siphon to maintain the water level below the tile outlet.

Dave, I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying dig the pond deeper than the inlet? The inlet will already be 4' below the bank, if the water is below the inlet, then my banks will be at least 5' above the water.

Danpshack,

What is the difference in elevation from the far end of the proposed tile field to the location where you want the pond? The tile company should have this information if they have proposed the drainage design already. IMO you need that info before you accept their proposal or consider other options.

What's the source of the water in the area you are wanting to drain? Does it ever go dry?

Dan; the way I'm looking at it indicates to me that with the tiles under water, and with the drains under ground, they will stay full and have trouble draining the area.

To me, it's like a spring that both gives and takes water depending on the water level in the soil.

I have a small pond with a spring in the bottom. It is actually a ground water pond. When the water level in the surrounding soils drops and the trees start sucking water in June, the pond drops to the level of the surrounding water table. Conversely, when the trees are bare in the winter and we get rains the pond can actually stay full and sometimes even overflow without rain. In July, it is generally dry even when we get good rains.

To me, it looks like your tiles could have the same effect.

Am I missing something obvious?

Bill, the pond will be in the north end of the field, and the road (see pic) will be the south end. The difference in elevation from the north end to south is about 15'. The field slopes down to the pond. So the tile will be sloped towards the pond. I figured there would be so much pressure from the slope that the pond would stay full.

Dave, I agree that the tiles might have trouble draining the area, that is my concern. Tile guy says no, I'm guessing the slope of my field as mentioned above might be the reason he believes they will drain fine and the pond will stay full. The center of the field and the spot where I have the pond drawn is always wet. I drilled a test hole just south of the pond last year and it has been full of water ever since. I not so concerned with the lack of water. I'm concerned with the inlet being 4' below where I want the water to rise to in the pond. I guess the slope of the field towards the pond might be the deciding factor here, I'm not sure.

I have another tile company coming next week for another quote. Also, two pond builders coming this weekend. I will let you guys know what they say. Thank you for your ideas and comments, keep them coming!

I don't have experience with tile, but it seems to me the water is going to try and seek level. So I would think as long as the field level is above the full pool level of the pond the water will run into the pond to the point of ground saturation at that full pool level. In other words the pond full pool will try to extend itself to and under ground as an extension of the pond.

I would also think that during dry periods, the water will reverse and become an irrigation tile, again, trying to keep the water table in the field at an equal level with the pond level. In other words, the pond may try and irrigate the field to a degree, especially on the lower end of the field closer to the water level.

Just how I see it in my minds eye. No experience whatsoever.

I must have never hit Submit on a post I made, but here it goes:

The water will back up inside of the tiles to the surface level of the pond. Depending on the elevation drop, you could have a lot of submerged drain tile, which in dry weather will act to drain the pond down to the outlet level by perking it through the soil like a septic leach line does. Your best bet would be to lower the entire area the pond is in by transporting the soil uphill someplace so the lowered area the pond sits in does not look like a crater.

Another option is a compromise. Where the drain tile approaches the pond, it levels out just above the water line. You could plate some soil over the pipe area so it is still under 3 feet of insulating soil for freezing. You could use the excavated soil from the pond basin to do this.

A silly idea is to separate the outlet from the pond, but have it enter a cistern or buried tank where then you could use a pump to transport water to the higher level of the pond. It would only need to run when the water line of the cistern is lower than the pond surface but still above the tile outlet. Install a siphon with a one-way valve so when the water is high enough, it will enter the pond without the help of the pump. If you are clever, you could use this pump for irrigation also by opening the one-way valve.

Just some ideas.

That is essentially how our septic system is setup. It has a lift station in the basement that pumps up to the septic tank. The tank drains to another tank near the septic field where a second lift station pumps it up to the field. Works great!

danpshack......what did the pond builders and other tile guy say? And what did you end up doing? I am in the same situation pretty much.


Thanks

It will be best to test the scenarios that you may be facing. A dry run will not hurt. A cool idea though.