I pulled this quote from Bill Cody off another thread as I found it was getting the old imagination flowing and did not want to hijack that thread.

Here's the idea...When I expand my pond next year I am going to have a lot of dirt I need to do something with. What if I built micro size embankment ponds around the large pond with that excess dirt. This would give me a bunch of little ponds above the grade of the larger pond. Sealing these little ponds will be a problem. From what I have seen, off the shelf liners are less expensive than special liners. So say I sized those little ponds to fit one of those pond kits that come with all the pumps, waterfall, etc? I could pipe water from the main pond to the micro, using the kit pump, and let it flow back to the main pond by turning around that waterfall that came with the kit so it discharges over rocks back to the big pond. Then using an idea TJ gave me, I could run a pipe with a valve between the micro and the main pond. This valve could be used to drain the micro pond as well as to directly flow the fish from the forage pond to the main.

Would really appreciate some thoughts on this idea.

Edit: Please feel free to pick this idea apart and shed doom and gloom. That is what I am looking for. This would not be cheap so want to hear all the pitfalls. Stage 1 to me would be a 3 to 1 slope away from the pond to a height of 5 feet and then build a plateau for the micros. I would let the plateau sit for a year or two and settle before moving forward with actually constructing the mico ponds.

P.S. Not really hung up on using pond kits and liners if there is a better way!

Bill,
How many micro ponds are you considering? Also, what size? Can you put a sketch together of these micro ponds in reference to your larger pond?

I'm thinking 2 micros to start with space in the plateau for more. Size is still up in the air, maybe 30 x 30. I would like to trap YP spawn from the main pond and put them in with FHM and BNM in one micro. Second micro would be to try to raise SFS, grass shrimp and scuds. As far as a sketch goes, just think of the foot print of a coyote. That is the ultimate layout. Then I can name the place Coyote Ponds. Until then it would be called Old Two Toe!

Potential issues
- Algae / weeds in the small, shallow above ground ponds - if you run a pipe and dump water from them into the big in ground pond.

- Birds and four legged predators picking off forage fish from the small shallow ponds.

- Water / air temperature - too hot in Summer and too cold in Winter



Don't know how small you're looking at, but have you considered livestock tanks for minnow raising?

http://www.bettymills.com/shop/super_cat...Commercial.html


http://www.fleetfarm.com/detail/freeland-374-gal-corrugated-stock-tank/0000000033256

The pipe is a great idea but being able to partially siene it for partial harvest would be nice too. Make it the width of your siene.

Good points BL - I had these same fears on my mini ponds - here's what I did and my thoughts on the other details:

Vegetation non issue if using valve to drain ponds - one of the reasons I installed the gate valves. Also, if one builds with steep sides it help abate vegetation growth getting deep quickly. If things start getting messy, hit with dye or fertilize the pond and get algae blooms going and restrict sunlight penetration.

Steep sides limit area wading birds can hunt. Also, one can run wire along rebar for a good single strand fence to discourage wading birds. Will likely be raising thousands of fish in these, I don't think a few here or there to mink or kingfishers or GBH will have much effect.

Temp extremes could be issue, but not if Bill is raising common minnows and shiners. Dig to 5-6' and I think he'd be fine in Summer and Winter. I raised and overwintered hundreds of 6-8" SMB in .25 acre pond only 5' depth with no visible morts. NE water temps can approach mid 80s and pond would freeze up to 12" in Winter.

Bill D., if u r going to have a lot of dirt from the big pond, will there not be clay in large amounts, to be used for yote ponds?
Tracy

Good question. Where the current pond is, the top 3 feet or so is black "dirt." I say "dirt" but it doesn't act like the black dirt I was used to growing up in central Indiana. This stuff sets up like concrete. The next 7 or 8 feet is pretty much gravel, river rock and sand. Water table is very high here, I don't know whether you could ever keep a pond sealed dug below grade as the water will be pushing in from the water table. The pond I have now is 8 feet max and filled in 24 hours from the water table.

I am not a soils expert and I am not a pond building expert. Biggest problem I have is finding someone in my area that is a true pond builder to do the project. All I have been able to find are dirt movers. The list of builders the DNR gave me led nowhere fast with disconnected numbers or no call backs.

I need a pond guy!! Too bad there is not one of those on the online auction!

Comments / ideas.
1. If you membrane line the small ponds, every year or two the sediment accumulations could be rinsed (hosed trash pump) down the slippery sides into the bottom where the trash pump could pump a lot of the slurry out. Maybe use alternate years as to which pond is drained for winter so brood stock can be over wintered in the other pond/s.

2. Most of that slurry could be used to water trees or plants. Slop slurry could be dewatered and the solids used as a type of fertilizer.

3. Consider making a sump area in the bottom where sediment and fish will collect for easier removal at lowest pool.

4. Papershell crayfish in the forage ponds will keep most of the vegetation including FA to a minimum providing the crayfish are abundant enough.

5. A vibratory sheepsfoot compactor might be able to compact your marginal soils enough for a decent soil liner. There are liquid soil additives that can help seal ponds prior to compaction. ESS-13 is just one brand. I used Perma-Zyme on my minnow pond that had no special clay liner. It was sprayed on & blended/mixed into the top soil layer and compacted. It worked very good. http://internationalenzymeslv.com/products/perma-zyme/

6. Check into Dave Sefton an excellent Pond Boss family pond builder near Brownstown Illinois. Dave has spoke at PBoss conventions including PB VI. If he is too far away from you he may know about a good pond builder in your area.
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=313602

Thanks Bill!!!

Edit:
Looks like Brownstown is a good 175 miles from us.

As you say, maybe he can suggest someone.

Dave might be able to come for a day or two and supervise the project or as in the link I posted above, where the equipment was rented and Dave came up and drove it to work his magic.

From the link: "I forgot to mention the equipment providers in my original post. We rented a John Deere 200 excavator from RCI and a John Deere 700K dozer from ERB. The scraper work was done by a local contractor. Dave made it clear he wanted good equipment to avoid breakdowns so I called all the ERB reps within 100 miles and found the NEW (only 10 hours on it) 700K at the Cape store. The 700 worked great...until it broke down! We got 11 hours of work on it before the over temp sensor went out. This was on a Friday afternoon and the ERB folks quickly loaded up a 650J at the Fenton store and delivered to the site within a couple of hours. Both RCI and ERB were GREAT!"

+100 on Bills comments. Crayfish will keep forage ponds free of vegetation in appropriate populations. Dave Sefton is an expert, PB family member, and all around awesome guy. Strongly recommend, you'd be lucky to have him.

Bill - Whoever does your mini-ponds project seriously consider the soil additive option. Maybe build one with a liner and one with the soil additive. Results will help you decide how to build the other mini-ponds.

Thanks. I am strongly considering it. I need to do a cost study.

I think it is a cool idea.

You ask to pick your idea apart, and the only big downfall I see has to do with the ongoing cost of operation. As long as you are good with supplying the inputs to keep the artificial water flowing to keep the ponds in good shape it looks like it should work keen.

I don't see where you would need to wait two years to make the ponds, as long as you compacted the soil properly as it was deposited onto the plateau.

Besides, we don't want to wait two years to see how it works out! I can be really good at spending other peoples money. Get right on the project!

I bet you have already seen and read all these threads Bill, but in case you missed some, towards the end of my sediment pond thread (a few on first page, lots on second page), there are lots of links to other peoples small specialty forage and sediment ponds that might give you ideas for your project.

Thanks Snrub,

I would love to push forward faster and will if I can. I remember when we dug the pond we have now that once you get down about 2 or 3 feet you hit water. Even though we kept the hole pumped down during digging, the dirt, gravel, sand and stone mix was super saturated with water and flowed when they dumped the bucket - kind of like wet concrete flows. Not sure how I can pack that kind of stuff in layers as I build the plateau. I am thinking, right or wrong, that I want that plateau as stable as possible before building the micros, especially if I go with a liquid sealant as Bill C. suggests. I would think much shifting of the plateau settling would cause leaks in that scenario. The good news is, I used several hundred truck loads of the stuff from the pond for fill around the new house and it dried out nicely and seems to make great fill, very little settling observed so far.

I like the Berm type ponds for a low budget alternative for messing around.

Don't have to dig too deep and just shove the materials topside around the perimeter to add depth, then get a cheap PVC liner. Fill with water, and toss in fish.

Granted, you won't get any runoff, but that could be a good thing in some situations.

Good thought for sure. Maybe adopt Esshup's idea of a paint roller pan design. This would also provide the sump Bill C. mentioned in his post for easy clean out. Down side is it would probably require a special liner or a bigger off the shelf due to the varying depth across the length of the pond. I would think it would work well though with Bill C's liquid soil additive suggestion or possibly bentonite. Maybe a (10 to 15) X (30 to 50) micro?

Don't have a seine. Minnow traps for partial harvest?

Bill if you could go into a little further details using the Perma-Zyme. What sieve size did you use? Did you lay down non-compacted soils on top of the compressed and treat soil or leave it bare? Is there any plants growing in you pond? Did you fill with water after it cured or let it naturally fill? Thanks Much

I only have one experience with Perma-Zyme. I actually visited the place in LasVagas that makes Perma-Zyme.
http://internationalenzymeslv.com/
http://www.zoominfo.com/s/#!search/profile/company?companyId=49842192&targetid=profile

My 1/3 acre shallow pond was basically dug as a hole in the ground in an agricultural field. Near the bottom of the hole was some decent 'yellow' clay, but no special effort was made to line the pond. When the pond excavation basin was basically complete the surface top soil layer of 5"-8" of the entire basin was tilled or mixed - scarification. Tilling the soil was somewhat tricky on the pond side slopes. Perma-Zyme was diluted as per manufacturer instructions and sprayed by hand with a garden hose attached to an agricultural type tank pressurized sprayer. As I recall about 200-300 gallons of total spray was used to wet down the scarified layer. See Perma-Zyme videos. Then a double barrel sheepsfoot roller pulled behind one of the bulldozers was used to thoroughly compact the top layer. Pond was then pumped full within a week or two. The pond bottom was so hard a year after it was filled that I often had a hard time pounding wooden stakes into the bottom. Muskrats eventually compromised some areas of the banks thus the pond now does not hold water well at full overflow pool. Water level during dry periods is often 16"-20" below the overflow.

The pond (60'x220') was built only 7ft deep. Weeds eventually after several years invaded the pond and curly leaf pond weed grew thick throughout the entire pond. I have used the pond for various purposes. It can be 'trash' pumped down fairly easily and quickly. Currently it is used to raise forage minnows-shiners. I have discovered that papershell crayfish will flourish with the minnows/shiners (polyculture) and the crays will denude all vegetation however the water is not clear. I estimate crayfish are likely 1800-3000 thousand per 1/3 ac. Visibilities range from 16" to 2.5ft depending on number of crayfish. Without crayfish or at low crayfish numbers the pond becomes clear (vis 4-7ft) and weeds-algae flourish. I do annually harvest & transfer hundreds of crayfish to my perch-walleye pond.

This from the Perma-Zyme soil stabilization manual:
1. Soil for ponds should have at least 25%-30% passing through a 200 mesh screen.
2. Gravel granular material should be kept to a minimum.
3. for best results soil should be laboratory analyzed to see if additional material such as bentonites or clays are needed.
4. One gallon of Perma-Zyme treats 165 cu yards of material. Water is added to Perma-Zyme to optimize compaction.
5. It is advised to blade the soil to the side and the sub-base compacted to provide sub-base strength.
6. Then the soil should be bladed or disced (mixed, tilled, scarified) to obtain uniform moisture content.
7. Create a clay liner using lifts not greater than 15cm (6") each.
8. Upon blending the water-Permazyme mixture into the soil (top 10"-12") in lifts or layers grade and shape the pond. Compact with a sheepfoot to achieve maximum soil density. Proper compaction is essential. Additional lifts can be added as performed above. The final layer should be graded and compacted to a finished surface.
9. If granular material is excessive bentonites or clays may be needed in addition to Perma-zyme.
10. Dry ponds can be reconditioned using the same procedure for new construction.

Some of their literature says to use 1 gallon of Perma-zyme for every 6000 sqft of soil surface but check with mfg for details. I used a high more than suggested rate of Perma-zyme.

Would another idea on sealing a micro be to bring in clay? Assuming I could find good clay nearby, how thick would the clay layer need to be in a 5 foot deep pond? I am thinking 2 to 1 slope to a flat bottom.


Edit: I have been digging thru old soil surveys for my area and it seems it is very possible that below my gravel, sand, etc layer is "blue clay." I remember hitting something like that when we dug the test hole at about 12 feet. Can blue clay work to seal a pond?

Hauling in clay dirt is a good option. Blue clay is the best clay IMO for sealing ponds. Very tight, dense, tough stuff. Sometimes it is difficult for smaller bulldozers to peel it out of the bottom. When compacted it seals as tight as clay can seal; some say almost like concrete. Pond builders in my area love to find and work with the blue clay for pond sealing. For a mini-pond I would prefer a clay layer of minimum 12" and better 24" thick. For insurance I would spray/mix/blend-in perma-zyme prior to compacting the clay lifts or layers.

Thanks Bill. To be clear are you saying put the perma-zyme in the soil under the clay layer? Also, what do you think about putting a layer of gravel on top the clay liner to protect it?

No - I meant to spray permazyme mixture on the clay layers as it was spread around as 4"-6" lift thick layers on the bottom and then each layer compacted. Thus there would be three to several layers of compacted clay layers comprising the 12" to 24" thick clay liner. I suspect the clay would be hauled in and dumped by trucks. The piles would then be spread out as a "lift" layer. Then spray each layer with diluted permazyme solution to optimize the clay moisture content and enhance sealing action during compaction. You could verify this technique with technical people at International Enzymes in CA or LasVegas.

My permazyme literature included a very good Appendix III. Compaction Manual produced by Caterpillar (CAT Road Builders) 1989, 59ppg. International Enzymes provided me a Pond Building Soil calculations and Design information sheet for my pond plan. It noted the amount of Perma-zyme needed. In my case it was minimum 2.6 gal per 165 cu.yds. They may now have a more concentrated version for Perma-Zyme.

Thanks Bill. For my micros, maybe 30 x 30, heavy equipment to compact will not be an option. Is reducing the layer thickness to maybe 3 to 4 inches and using hand operated vibratory compactor the way to go?

Also, what do you think about covering the "clay liner" with a layer of something to protect it? These will be ponds that are probably going to be frequently drained. I was also thinking some vegetation could live in the protective layer without penetrating the clay liner? Maybe a cover of something the fish would prefer to clay? It's a micro pond so I was thinking a little extra cost for that extra layer of a preffered habitat is not a big deal?

Thanks Bill Cody for the good feedback. Things in my head I'm concerned with:
1. What happens if let's say you have layered the Perma-Zyme and the pond is at full pool for a year, then drained to harvest forage fish. What will happen with bottom layer if it drys out, will it crack?

2. If your forage pond is designed for crawfish production. Will they affect the Perma-Zyme layers.

3. Will any pond treatment chemicals cause the product to breakdown?

I do think a good thick layer of clay material will have a great positive affect on compaction in Perma-Zyme usages.

Bill Have been out of touch for a while' Not sure what Perma Zyme is? What it does? or where you get it? Otto

As far as I have been able to determine, there are 2 distributors for Perm-Zyme in the US and they seem to have defined sales regions. One is based in S. Carolina and sells only in S. Carolina. The other is based in Idaho and sells to Idaho, Utah, Montana, Wyoming and Alaska. I sent an e-mail to see if it can be purchased for use in Illinois.

I did find a recommended application rate of 1 gal per 150/cubic yds of clay for new pond construction but could not find any recent pricing info. I did find a source stating the cost at $120/gal from 2011.

Edit: FWIW Just fond another site that says $365/gal

Yea Bill D the best price I`ve found so far was $360-$365 gal.

Did you find a place to buy it?

http://www.ndltap.org/events/conference/downloads/2013-baseone.pdf

Maybe this place, I have made no contact efforts yet.

I started making what my wife and I refer to as "Mongo Ponds" right after the Pond Boss I or II conference.

Popular PB Conference presenter, Sir Dave "Mongo" Sefton, presented some of the things he was doing. As soon as we got home from that conference, I hopped on my backhoe and started digging Mongo Ponds.

Most are 20 to 30 feet in maximum width and or length, and less than 4-feet deep. One got expanded to about 1/3 acre and about seven feet deep. It is my experimental pond.

The other micro ponds serve a number of purposes. They are home to minnows, frogs and amphibians of all kinds, and they provide forage and water for a lot of woodland critters. Best of all, they make great settlement ponds for debris and other stuff. One of the smallest, about 4 x 15 feet, is a significant water cleanup and debris trap area. It is filled with cattails that take in a lot of undesirables. I keep it under control with the backhoe and a tractor landscape rake.

Price for Perma-Zyme has gone up! WOW. The first batch I bought (pre 1990) was a 55 gal drum of original Perma-Zyme (pre Perma-Zyme11X). Second batch was the concentrated form of Perma-Zyme11 in a 5 gal jug that cost $110/gal and I picked it up while there on a gambling trip! If I wanted more I would call International Enzymes in LasVagas and see what they told me.

M.Otto - Mike it is a soil stabilizer. I think it is similar to ESS-13. When I visited the manufacturer in L.Vagas they showed me the process and said it was an enzymatic process and made it from sugar cane. It looked like they were making big vats of dark beer. When mixed with the soil and compacted it gets very hard. They use it in the West a lot to build roads and airport runways. If you haven't found out more about it here is some links.
http://internationalenzymeslv.com/products/perma-zyme/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaIpYpiDg6Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB5oWWvNCw8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKr94EgDiSY
Six year old road with perma-zyme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GP7k2JNIE0M

A PBF member sent me a PM on a source for a pond liner. Thank You! Would appreciate some feedback. I can get a 30 mil PVC vinyl liner that is UV resistant for a 30 x 30 pond around 4 feet deep for between $400 and $500 plus shipping.

Good price? Way to go? Why or why not? If I went this way, should I buy underlayment or would old carpeting work?

Guys,

Still brainstorming. I would appreciate your thoughts on using a garden pond insert as a micro pond. I am thinking one of the largest irregular shaped inserts 2 or 3 feet deep, not sure what they are made out of, maybe fiberglass, to raise a minnow species for forage. Water from the main pond would be constantly circulated thru the micro. I would need to figure out the outlet side to get flow back to the main pond over a waterfall. I would provide a netting or large mesh wire cover to keep critters out. What do you think?

I don't think you are going to grow very many fish in a garden pool. Have you considered something larger such as one of those preformed swimming pools?. They appear to be molded fiberglass. I will try to find links for examples. Oh my! Lots to choose from.
http://www.riverpoolsandspas.com/cost
http://www.vikingpools.net/
http://www.bestfiberglasspools.com/why_fiberglass_pools.htm
http://www.brpoolsusa.com/why-buy-a-fiberglass-pool/why-buy-fiberglass-pools.html
http://www.sunpools.com/

Also explore land fill liners.

Thanks Bill. I will "wade" thru the links. I like the idea!

Here's a thought for you Bill of the forage pond stuff. In my area, there are so many water holes that no one would think to put fish into. Small cattail slough type waters. In the populated and un populated areas. I talk to the homeowner or land owner and ask if I can stock and trap it. Most people are very curious and let me do it. More than half of them love to be apart of it. I have more ponds to raise fish in than I have time and all it costs me is some conversation time and the occasional case of suds. FH, stickle backs, mud minnows, and GSF. Get mosquito control as well

Thanks Mnfish. Wish we had those kind of opportunities around here. I will keep on the lookout.

Update: Looks like, unless I could find one on the cheap from somebody that is stuck with one gathering dust, the fiberglass insert idea is a non-starter for me. Price is way too high compared to a liner.