first two quotes on the pond. 20,000 and 16,000
This is a simple excavated pond 1/4 acre with 2500 CY of dirt to be moved. No lining or packing of clay, no complicated curves or slopes. both guys said it would take 4 days. 4,000 a day for excavating seems aweful expensive.
I gotta be able to find someone to do this pond for less than 10k
Many times a cheaply and quickly built pond is a leaker. If you get a leaker pond it will cost more to fix it than it did to first "dig" it. Remember - you build a pond and dig a hole. Building take more time than digging a hole. Clay lifts even in a dug pond need to be properly compacted with preferably a sheepsfoot roller. Holes often leak even in good dirt. Do a little homework here about the trials and tribulations of the members here who have leaky ponds. Nightmares from hell. Carefully check the references and examine at least several ponds of the cheap pond diggers.
Ask about a "leak clause" in the contract when hiring a pond builder. Get his definition of when a leaking pond is unacceptable. FYI all ponds with out artificial liners leak that is the nature of compacted clay/dirt. The big concern is when is the leak unacceptable especially during drought conditions. FYI - Well sealed and best built ponds in our good NW Ohio blue clay will go down during droughts only 12"-14". Water loss is mostly due to evaporation.
there is no clay, just a VERY high water table. It will fluctuate tremendously depending on water level. I expect this and I know it going into it. There is not even clay on site to compact if I wanted to. Instead its an area that would probably be a gravel quary if it were not for the flood plane. This will just be a dug hole and there is no other way to do it here. and the quotes I am getting are for just that.
If they are only running an excavator that does seem high, unless by four days he means 96 hours.
My dirt guy charged me $190 an hour last fall for the excavator and then there was additional charges to haul it away.
I am from the same area as Indygunworks and been searching for a builder. The one estimate I've managed to get was 30-40k for a 3/4 acre (experienced pond builder). Seems pretty high to me and definitely out of the budget. 3 others have flat out told me they are too busy and dont want the work.
As I explained to Indy in a PM it is so frustrating it makes me want to start up an excavation business and build them myself!
Seriously though, I'm considering doing it myself. For half that cost it seems I could buy a nice backhoe (resell later) and line the pond (no leak worries) with a firestone pondgard liner. Sure it would take a hell of a lot longer. But then I may just be done by the time someone has time to call me back?
The soil removal from the property is the catch. I've come up with many potential uses for a lot of the soil around the property, but I'm sure about half will be left to haul off. Lots of fill dirt always needed in the area...
If I were only doing a 1/4 acre as Indy is, I would do it myself and line it without hesitation!
I know it's a lot of $$. I did a quote for a client a while ago, and the biggest headache was disposing (read that as moving) the dirt from the hole. This was for 2 ponds that were already dug, and dug improperly. Groundwater ponds, dug in sand. Banks were sloped 2:1, when the water dropped you literally have to walk down sideways, and the sand is pushed down by your feet as you sidehill to the water. Forget about standing facing the water, your toes are 4” below your heels. Very little area for fish to spawn, if the water drops the beds are out of the water. Ponds average 6’ water depth, but water is (right now) 4’ to 5’ below the flat grassy area around the ponds.
I would have to rent equipment to do it. Here's some rental rates:
Excavator: 40 hrs $3,000.00 plus tax and insurance Add close to another thousand for delivery and pick up.
LGP dozer: 40 hrs $1,400.00 plus tax, insurance and delivery
Off-Road dump truck: 40 hrs $2,500 plus tax, insurance and delivery.
Now diesel fuel. Figure on roughly 5 gal per hour per machine. So, @ $4.00/gal that is $480.00 per day just in fuel; $2,400 per week.
Diesel fuel tank rental $? You ain't going to fill them up with 5 gallon cans......
Erosion mats and grass seed.
What is the cost of $$? The state charges taxes on income, so figure taxes on top of equipment rental. I don't know when I'm going to be paid, and the rental place expects their $$. I pay bills as they come in, I don't string 'em out.
What's the cost of labor? You aren't going to find operators that know what they are doing for $10/hr. Then figure in FICA, insurance, etc., etc. Hours of labor aren’t just 40 hrs for 40 hrs of machine time. Machines need to be greased at least once a day, filled with fuel, etc., etc. I figure somewhere between 1 to 2 hrs per day per machine for maintenance – even if it’s a rental I take care of it. That comes back to me – the rental company usually gives me their newest piece of equipment. Last time I rented a backhoe, it was a JD 310K extend a hoe with 2 hrs on it.
What's my knowledge worth? 4 years of college, years and years of experience. Like Bill said, there IS a difference between digging a hole and building a pond. You have to know what slope to make the sides, so they don't collapse, you need flatter areas for spawning areas, etc. What’s it cost if I get a piece of equipment stuck in the pond basin? Do I charge the customer extra for the expense of getting it out? Or does it come out of my pocket?
A friend who farms hired a operator to run the combine for $10/hr. Operator thought he could drive thru a soft area instead of stopping and backing up. It took 3 days, 2-3 guys and $10,000 in rental equipment expenses to get it unstuck. How much $$ did he save? Brand new $200K+ combine.
Growndwater ponds need a dewatering pump to keep the water out as you dig. So, you have a pump that can move 15,000-20,000 GPH, suction hose, discharge hose, gasoline for the pump, labor to fill it, etc.
Then you gotta figure in $$ (and time) if you hit something that is buried. If I give the customer a quote, I figure it in. If everything goes smoothly, then I came in under budget and I don’t charge the full quote. Or, should I charge just the bare minimum, and if a snag is hit, do I say “We’ve got a problem, instead of $10K, it is going to cost $20K to do it or I gotta walk away.”?
Digging a pond isn’t as simple as “get a piece of equipment and dig a hole”.
You're hired esshup! When can you start? :P
I do appreciate seeing that side of it. I've considered most if not all those things, and understand it all takes $$ to make it happen.
BUT what it all comes back to is what if there is nobody willing or able to do the job as apparently is the case in this area.
Do I wait for a slow year in the excavation business and maybe get lucky? Will this be before my kids are grown and out of the house and I'm too old and decrepit to be willing or able to make things happen myself?
I think not. I'm a pretty smart and resourceful guy. I'm not as MacGuyver'esque as some on here, but determined, willing and have a plan. Plus there are always the PondBoss forums! I will find a way to make it happen with or without a "professional"
Indygunworks sounds just as determined and I wish him the best of luck!
Any rental placed down by you?
Esshup, what if I told you I can get an excavator and a dozer rented for a week for 1200 bucks. What would it cost me on your end for you to come down and dig the pond? : ) I think I have someone who will pay the transportation for the soil to be removed from the property as well so a dump truck wouldn't have to be figured in. I figure it can be dug in 3 days, and as of right now I am thinking about instead of sloping the banks I will just stair step it down in 3 feet increments, that should keep the cost down as well right?
Any rental placed down by you?
Plenty, but I'll have Indygw put you to work first since I hijacked his thread
Nah, you get him down here and ill piggyback on your costs! my pond is smaller after all.
Esshup dave and I are only about 20 miles apart, I think you need to make a road trip and come dig some ponds!
I'll probably end up downsizing plans to 1/2 acre. My wife actually had the nerve to call the previously staked out size "obscene" lol.
Indygw I think you're much closer to being ready than I am. I'm still waiting on explanation of procedure and permits from Shelby County.
While I wait I do have an equipment contact I can hit up for some rates...
I'll just throw in my 2 cents real quick but it seems you are on solid ground with essup.
I was able to rent excavator and skidloader to work on my ponds. I rented the excavator for a week, unlimited hours just pay for diesel. With help from friends there were days we ran the machines 14-16 hours a day. In a week we cleared out a 1 acre pond and dug a 1/4 acre pond 3 feet deep average, dug a forage pond and frog pond using the clay from the ponds to line the fish pond. That went well.
The other foot dropped, I rented the skidloader for a month, unlimited hours to move clay. I went out July 1 and 2 and ran the skidloader for 14 hours each day. the next day a hired guy 10/hr as essup mentioned, and within 10 minutes he tipped the skidloader and the owner could not get it up and running for 3 days. Over the month people including me tipped it 3 times, stuck in mud twice and broke hydraulic housing costing the owner 10K to fix which wiped out the $ I paid him.
There is no easy or cheap way to do it.