Hello all! First time posting on the site and am amazed at the amount of information that is on this site. My wife is starting to become jealous because I am on here all the time.

My issue: My wife and I purchased a large piece of property that had a small pond (10' x 15') that had leaked through a poorly constructed dam. The area is nothing but a "marshy" puddle, due to a couple of springs that continually run into this area and still have somewhat of the damaged dam retaining some water. Our intent is to get a pond builder to come in and re-do the pond (make it larger) and repair the dam. We are looking to do a .5 acre pond that is 10' deep.

We had a person come out and they were concerned that the area where the leaking pond currently sits might be a wetland. Has anyone had any experiences with wetlands? The area that is effected is no bigger than a small koi pond. Does anyone know the costs of a wetland determination?

We just can't believe that we might not be able to repair the pond that was already here previously without jumping through hoops (DEP, ACE, ETC).

Located in Southeastern PA.

I appreciate everyone's time and thanks in advance!

Welcome to PB.

Be careful in this instance. I would try another builder and see what he says.

ewest, what do you mean by "Be careful in this instance."

There was a guy on here not to long ago that bought a property and needed to fix a dam that was leaking by a road. I am sorry I can't remember his name to point out the thread. He started to fix it, and they saw him doing this and shut him down till he got all the proper licenses and permits. A lot of extra hassle for him, but was lucky to work it out.

I can't speak for EWEST but what I think he means, when he says be careful, is digging in a wetland without proper permitting. Assuming you can even get a permit. The Federal Government has very strict laws and regulations when it comes to manipulating or digging in a wetland.

I agree, from my research it looks like they take it pretty serious. I would rather make sure I am legal than to duck behind my sofa each time a stranger knocks on my door.

Modifying and altering a wetland, either by natural design or by prior human intervention, is a serious crime, which can land you in prison after a hefty fine. Best to check with the local county about the modification to the existing wetland first. Don't just waltz into the office/cold calling the office, without providing aerial info. Outline the area you're planning to take action on. Ask, and make sure to note, the person's or persons' name(s) you're talking to for future reference. A business card from that person will be you alibi if things get ugly. They will have existing tracking system (by papers or computer based) to check if your pond is indeed a designated wetland.

There are some real horror stories about the EPA/COE abusing innocent people much like the IRS. Same for state agencies.

It may well not be a wetland and thus not be subject to regulation. Isolated wet spots are not subject to Clean Water 404 jurisdiction as per the US Sup. Ct.

Another poster here wanted a pond. His neighbors have ponds. He went thru the proper channels and they refused his pond permit. When he asked about his neighbors ponds he was told they would have been refused too, if they had inquired bebfore digging. No word on if his neighbors got into trouble after the fact or not.

ewest is dead on about the 404 Certification and Permitting compliances. It's truly a horror story to go through the proper channel. However, not going through the proper channels will cause more horrors, exceeding the horrors of going through the proper channels. I've seen both sides of the scenarios, and then some. As ewest indicated, "puddles" and "accumulated ponds" are not subjected to these permitting, since the wetlands are designated and recorded by land surveyors. Just make sure to check ahead of time.

esshup is also right on the "I'll do what I want and won't get in trouble" for the few pond owners. As long as the City/County/State/Federal agency don't know what you're doing on your land, you're golden. However, when something happens, like a drowning, migratory birds evaluation based on surveying, dam blowout, flooding, habitat destruction/impact downstream, guess who will comes and breath down your neck? Just like the IRS you've ignored to pay taxes for the past 5 or 10 years. It'll come back and bite you in the butt..real hard. In this case, you have EPA, DNR, NGOs, and local agencies all chewing on you at the same time. I just got through a few cases not too long ago with the same scenario near the mountain lake and stream. Not fun to say the least. But it gave me time to survey for excellent fly fishing spots.

Did not fact check this, but kinda fitting..



This is an actual letter sent to a man named Ryan DeVries regarding a pond on his property. It was sent by the
Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Quality, State of Pennsylvania. This guy's response is hilarious, but read the State's letter before you get to the response letter, you won’t stop once you start. WOW Love this man.







This is an actual letter: State of Pennsylvania 's letter to Mr. DeVries:

SUBJECT: DEQ ... File No.97-59-0023; T11N; R10W, Sec 20; Lycoming County

Dear Mr. DeVries:

It has come to the attention of the Department of Environmental Quality that there has been recent unauthorized activity on the above referenced parcel of property. You have been certified as the legal landowner and/or contractor who did the following unauthorized activity:

Construction and maintenance of two wood debris dams across the outlet stream of Spring Pond.

A permit must be issued prior to the start of this type of activity. A review of the Department's files shows that no permits have been issued Therefore, the Department has determined that this activity is in violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Pennsylvania Compiled Laws, annotated.

The Department has been informed that one or both of the dams partially failed during a recent rain event, causing debris and flooding at downstream locations.. We find that dams of this nature are inherently hazardous and cannot be permitted. The Department therefore orders you to cease and desist all activities at this location, and to restore the stream to a free-flow condition by removing all wood and brush forming the dams from the stream channel. All restoration work shall be completed no later than January 31, 2013.

Please notify this office when the restoration has been completed so that a follow-up site inspection may be scheduled by our staff. Failure to comply with this request or any further unauthorized activity on the site may result in this case being referred for elevated enforcement action..

We anticipate and would appreciate your full cooperation in this matter. Please feel free to contact me at this office if you have any questions.

Sincerely,David L. Price
District Representative and Water Management Division.


Here is the actual response sent back by Mr. DeVries:

Re: DEQ File
No.. 97-59-0023; T11N; R10W, Sec. 20; Lycoming County

Dear Mr. Price,

Your certified letter dated 11/17/12 has been handed to me. I am the legal landowner but not the Contractor at 2088 Dagget Lane , Trout Run, Pennsylvania .

A couple of beavers are in the process of constructing and maintaining two wood 'debris' dams across the outlet stream of my Spring Pond. While I did not pay for, authorize, nor supervise their dam project, I think they would be highly offended that you call their skillful use of natures building materials 'debris.'

I would like to challenge your department to attempt to emulate their dam project any time and/or any place you choose. I believe I can safely state there is no way you could ever match their dam skills, their dam resourcefulness, their dam ingenuity, their dam persistence, their dam determination and/or their dam work ethic.







These are the beavers/contractors you are seeking. As to your request, I do not think the beavers are aware that they must first fill out a dam permit prior to the start of this type of dam activity.

My first dam question to you is:
(1) Are you trying to discriminate against my Spring Pond Beavers, or
(2) Do you require all beavers throughout this State to conform to said dam request?

If you are not discriminating against these particular beavers, through the Freedom of Information Act, I request completed copies of all those other applicable beaver dam permits that have been issued. (Perhaps we will see if there really is a dam violation of Part 301, Inland Lakes and Streams, of the Natural Resource and Environmental Protection Act, Act 451 of the Public Acts of 1994, being sections 324.30101 to 324.30113 of the Pennsylvania Compiled Laws, annotated.)

I have several dam concerns. My first dam concern is, aren't the beavers entitled to legal representation? The Spring Pond Beavers are financially destitute and are unable to pay for said representation -- so the State will have to provide them with a dam lawyer.

The Department's dam concern that either one or both of the dams failed during a recent rain event, causing flooding, is proof that this is a natural occurrence, which the Department is required to protect. In other words, we should leave the Spring Pond Beavers alone rather than harassing them and calling them dam names.

If you want the damed stream 'restored' to a dam free-flow condition please contact the beavers -- but if you are going to arrest them, they obviously did not pay any attention to your dam letter, they being unable to read English.

In my humble opinion, the Spring Pond Beavers have a right to build their unauthorized dams as long as the sky is blue, the grass is green and water flows downstream. They have more dam rights than I do to live and enjoy Spring Pond. If the Department of Natural Resources and Environmental Protection lives up to its name, it should protect the natural resources (Beavers) and the environment (Beavers' Dams).

So, as far as the beavers and I are concerned, this dam case can be referred for more elevated enforcement action right now. Why wait until 1/31/2013? The Spring Pond Beavers may be under the dam ice by then and there will be no way for you or your dam staff to contact/harass them.

In conclusion, I would like to bring to your attention to a real environmental quality, health, problem in the area It is the bears! Bears are actually defecating in our woods. I definitely believe you should be persecuting the defecating bears and leave the beavers alone. If you are going to investigate the beaver dam, watch your dam step! The bears are not careful where they dump!

Being unable to comply with your dam request, and being unable to contact you on your dam answering machine, I am sending this response to your dam office.

THANK YOU,

RYAN DEVRIES & THE DAM BEAVERS

LOL! This is what happened when too many desk jockies don't do field works and verifications before sending letters. There are and were still plenty of these going around, especially too many agencies are short staffed and depend solely on neighboring reports, without solid understanding of all the involved factors.

True story but it happened in Michigan in 1997, and there is more to the story. Apparently a neighbor got rid of the dam beavers and the land owner began maintaining the beaver dams, I'll be dammed.

http://www.snopes.com/humor/letters/dammed.asp