Hello,

I'm helping my parents prepare to select a contractor for their new pond. They've got the site (central NC farm), the design (~9 or 10 acres), the approvals (agricultural impoundment), soil surveys and tests, and now they just need the right contractor. They want to put it up for bid, and I've volunteered to package it all up and send it out to potential bidders.

Does anyone have a template or RFP package they might be willing to share? I need a boilerplate to work from. Just something to pull together all these documents. Maybe some model language for the bid request.

This is going to be a big job, and my folks don't want to go with just any old pond contractor. I agree.

P.S.
My apologies if this has been discussed before in the forums, but I searched and could not find anything along the lines of what I'm seeking.

P.P.S.
If anyone on this forum knows qualified pond contractors, or if you would like to receive the bid request package, please send me a private message with contact info.

Much obliged for any help y'all can offer!
Thanks,
John

I would never build a lake using that method (bid). Contact Bob Lusk at Pond Boss. He has lots of contacts in NC. If you want someone to help (not do the work but advise) contact Mike Otto http://www.ottosdirtservice.com .

Thanks for your response, ewest. To each his own.

Me? I would never spend $30,000 to $80,000 without first seeking competitive bids. My parents feel the same way. And there's nothing in a well written bid request / RFP that prevents us from selecting someone other than the lowest bidder. When you're spending that much money, it just makes sense to formalize the process, to help sort out all the variables, and understand better the merits of each of the bidders.

I'll contact Bob Lusk and Mike Otto.

Anyone else have any thoughts to share? Or bid request templates?

Thanks, all.

John

I would put it out for bid's if you had a package spec that was detailed and concise. Have a defined contract that everyone agrees on. Other than that, any type of project can go wild with "It all Depends" expenses/excuses that drain your funds.

Nail it down up front and Demand Performance of Contract!

No reason not to be professional thru out the whole process.

Good luck, but keep it tight!!!

I have done a lot of bids in my practice and without a very detailed bid and a process to weed out the junk and severe penalties for bad work and a bidder with deep pockets and a rep to protect it is a problem waiting to happen. Most of the good pond builders I know will not enter into a bid process because the low (not capable)bid will win. If Joe the dozer driver under bids Mike Otto by $1000 bucks who you going to choose? Good luck !

ewest...I know there are lots a variables, but isn't a good rule of the thumb that having a pond built professionally by a real pond builder is going to cost between $7500 - $10,000 per acre of pond? So a turn-key ten acre pond is going to run about 75-100 grand?

I don't know of any ponds that were built by a bid process.

then how are they built?
is this about semantics?
whats the difference in a "bid" and a "price"?
an owner decides he wants a 5 acre pond built
then the owner asks for bids/pricing from 5 different pond builders
and goes with the company and bid he likes the best
no?

There are two or three dirt guys in the area. One is an older guy and he gets almost of all the pond business. A rough estimate is given by the dirt guy and it is reasonable. It is just so many hours times the price of operating the equipment.

Not really. The cost depends on lots of things and ranges all over the place.

[/quote]
then how are they built?
is this about semantics?
whats the difference in a "bid" and a "price"?
an owner decides he wants a 5 acre pond built
then the owner asks for bids/pricing from 5 different pond builders
and goes with the company and bid he likes the best
no? [/quote]

I was referring to a formal bid process.

We use a process of contacting only the good pond builders informally and ask their thoughts on a location and idea. Then we go from there. A good builder will have ideas and thoughts and will provide an idea of costs. After you go through the process and you have your final plan then ask how much for that. Then do the contract with all ( and I mean all) the specifics.

We did the bid process here. We have a rule of thumb about 3 bidders for any job over 5K. We did not choose the cheapest, but the guy who came recommended by others. The most expensive bid was also by far the most knowledgeable about pond building, and in some ways I wish we went with him, but we did not. It is too late now, the hole is dug. The pond turned out fine, but isn't really what we wanted. Smaller, and just a bowl, pretty as it is.

The problem with pond building, it really isn't live an learn. You make a mistake and you pay... It really needs to be done right the first time, or you pay in anxiety, sleepless nights, and money.

I would spend the extra money if you are doing a project that large and get EXACTLY what you want. A leak-free anxiety-free body of water.

Find someone who knows what they are doing, which can be harder than it sounds. We built a pond this year and the 3rd contractor finally knew his business. Several months later and 30% over budget, we finally got a compromise pond that was less than expected but built correctly. I wish the fellow that built our other ponds had not retired!

I know the feeling. My property already had the pond when I bought it. Mike Otto said that it's a great pond, except that whoever built it did not slope the shoreline quite enough and the shallow shorelines will lead to a bigger battle fighting aquatic vegetation along my shoreline every year. He said it's relatively cheap to do when you are building the pond, but to go back and do it now would be pretty costly. So you're right....getting it right the first time is so important.

So most 5 acre ponds (turn-key) built by a professional pond builder would not be anywhere near $40-$50K to build?

One could be but not necessarily depending on the location , dirt type , size of dam if any, bottom improvements , amount of dirt to be moved or hauled , cost of fuel , builders need for work , competition for the job , ease of access , design plan , weather , time of year , equipment used and a hundred other factors. I have seen the estimated costs vary 3X too many times to trust any average.

For example and adjusted for inflation, we have a 16 acre lake that cost a third as much in total (not per acre) as a 6 acre lake less than half a mile away.

ewest...we will just agree to disagree

I've avoided this whole thread, because the POV's interested me.

What I did was a knock on doors around our county, and got info on the guys neighbors used for their ponds. Then I contacted a guy that had several happy customers, and we walked some of the ponds he had built. I guess I was naive, but I ultimately hired the guy, as he was right on board with my expectations.

Having said that, he came in $10,000 over budget, but only after I made changes to my original plans.

I know it was probably stupid not to get more bids, but the guy had a great rep, and his hour estimate was right on the money. I've only had one problem in 10 years, when we had a partial collapse in the upper third of the dam, and he was out the next day with a crew to repack and repair the area at no charge.

I still don't know what I would do next time, but my gut feeling about the dirt guy worked out very well for me.

John there is a lot of information on this site but if you truly want what you are looking for I think a attorney consult is in order.The only legal advice I would take from here is in the form of what is legal to stock as far as fish go

I've helped with the beginnings and renovations of a number of ponds. I've been asked to look at many bids and proposals. Generally several pond builders are asked to look at the site, with general guidance about what is wanted. Each will usually see something different than the others. They will each make suggestions. One or more are then asked for an estimated bid. A good contractor will include a set of 'terms and conditions' and usually a list of equipment they will have on site, along with the hourly rate for that equipment, and an estimated total cost. But, there are so many variables, a fixed cost is probably not going to be given on any complex or risky job -- and many are risky. The terms and conditions will define contingencies, like maybe the need to blast, packing an underground water source, digging and sealing a sand or gravel vein, etc.

If the ground was made of glass and everything underground could be seen, then bidding would be easy.

Mike Otto says it best. Lots of difference in building a hole in the ground and a home for fish.

I agree there are lots of differences in each property, but are you guys really saying that a land owner goes into building a pond with "absolutely no idea" of what the costs are going to be?

I just find that hard to believe.

If I were to build an additional say 5 acre pond on my property and had 2-3 pond builders out to give me a bid/estimate and some of them said..."look I have no earthly idea how much this is gonna cost you...could be $25K ...could be $150K or more" then I would not move forward with that builder.

I imagine most land owners get some kind of window of probable final costs or they would not move forward because most people don't have that kind of money ($100K sway) to throw around. How many people could really hand a pond builder a blank check and say "ok go build me a 5 acre pond". There must be some kind of pre-construction estimate or rough bid as to final costs.

Zep I don't think anyone said that. Here is the process. Note that you do get an estimate and then a price after what you want is fully discussed and the land examined (often test holes). What you don’t have is a formal low bid process. This is close to what the others are pointing out as well.

We use a process of contacting only the good pond builders informally and ask their thoughts on a location and idea. Then we go from there. A good builder will have ideas and thoughts and will provide an idea of costs. After you go through the process and you have your final plan then ask how much for that. Then do the contract with all ( and I mean all) the specifics.

Gotcha ewest...I understand now....thanks.

An interesting, helpful discussion. Apparently the problem was my use of the word "formalize". Because I certainly wasn't intending to describe a process that locks us into the lowest price. Nor was I envisioning something that locks the bidders into any specific process. Our geology in Chatham County is too weird and unpredictable to think rigidity is a path to success.

Ewest, you say you informally contact the good builders and ask their thoughts. That's what an RFP does. A Request For Proposals is inherently not a "formal low bid process."

We believe we have everything we are told the contractor would need to propose this job: Approvals, dam design, soil survey, samples and test holes. We just need a little help packaging the documents to send them to the good pond builders we know our neighbors have used. We need some means of getting from the pond builders written proposals of how they think it should be done, and at approximately what price.

I admit, I'm a total newby here. And all industries are different. But...

Am I hearing that the pond/dam builder industry has a culture of doing everything verbally up until the contract phase? Or is it that I've just not yet asked the right person to share template documents? (Admittedly, I've not yet had time to consult with either Bob Lusk or Mike Otto.)

Curious.

JohnCackalacky..... A belated welcome to the PondBoss forum. Keep at it, you'll get it figured out and the folks here will help you sort it out........ Tomaytoe/Tomato/Etc..........

John, I have 5 small ponds on my place that don't hold water. I've had 2 cleaned out and hit sand seams. I guess they've never held water. I've tried bentonite to no avail.

I had a backhoe deepen one and hit a spring. I had the dirt put back in and tamped down.

I cleaned one with my front end loader and box blade. It seems to have worked and the hogs love it.

Another one hit rocks. No luck there either.

I have one place where I would love to have a 2 acre pond. It has a lot of run off but I see big rocks in the area where I would need the dam.

The point is this. Digging a hole in the ground has a lot of unknowns and you're never really sure what you will find. Even digging test holes can only reveal what is underground where the test is made. For me, it's been a crap shoot.

Dave...it's really not feasible to make an existing shoreline deeper on a 4 acre pond without draining or lowering the water level....correct? I have a real shallow incline which leads to more aquatic vegetation along my shoreline. Maybe I will take "sealed bids".....lol

A 10 acre pond with a spillway and dam is an easy thing up here. Ya need to hire a PE Firm first! You just sit back in your favorite chair sippin your favorite beverage, and put it down once in a while to write checks

I actually agree with the law up here that states that a pond 5 acres and above with a dam has to be Professionally Engineered.

Not sure about that Zep. I know it would be a lot messier without draining.

How much aquatic veg's do you have?

Dave...below is a picture from 3 weeks ago. Makes casting/fishing from shore difficult. This was our first summer owning the property, but it got much worse than we anticipated, especially after we had almost 100 lbs of Tilapia in there. Overton's says that grass carp should help control whatever it is we have. So this winter we plan on building a grass carp guard on the drain and applying for a grass carp license from Texas Parks & Wildlife.



It is much, much better now...but for all the wrong reasons. We have a local old guy that worked for the previous owner that is sort of a caretaker for us. He mows our place with his tractor, cuts down dead trees, traps some hogs, repairs fencing, meets vendors, runs off trespassers, ect..and he is very cheap...we really like him.

But he did something without our permission that is a big no no. He put in a very small amount of "KarMex" and it has really made a HUGE difference on the aquatic vegetation. "KarMex" did clear up the problem. He treated one side first and the other side a week later. Says he's always used KarMex on on his own ponds and all his buddies use it in their ponds as well. He thought he was doing us a favor.

Luckily no fish-kill thus far, but Lochow stopped by and said eating fish in ponds treated with "KarMex" has been linked to brain cancer. Plus they said it really messes up the phytoplankton which effects the entire food chain.

So we've told the old guy to never put KarMex in our pond ever again and always consult with us before putting anything in our pond. He felt very bad and sincerely apologized....but I tell ya, the pond looks great now....but we won't ever use KarMex again!

Neat place. Get him another kind of chemical.

Hi JC(for short, I hope you don't mind), just curious,did you ever get bids? Please post pics as you go,it would be great to see a large project like that through as many steps as you would mind posting. If not let us know how big,how deep,how long the dam will be,and general shape,and features if any,thanks much.