A big thanks to Pond Boss member "Omaha" and "Dwight" for being such a great help in getting these photos up.

FIRST QUESTION:

What is the source or sources of the water in Quarry Lake?

This is worth one point for any answer that I deem correct. If you give me more than one source, you can get more than one point.

Keep in mind that none of you have all of the information that I have. So you are allowed to ask questions. I'll try to answer when I have time. Time is "up" when I ask the next question. No points given at all for question #1 after I've posted question #2.

I have spent a considerable amount of time researching the following questions, but I am trying maintain an open mind as to possible outside the box thinking.

No editing of your answers allowed. Once you've posted, you have to leave the post as is. If you change it you will lose 100 points. If you wait to post until you see other members making their posts, you run the risk of missing the question entirely, because I am likely to post the next question at any time of day or night.

rain, snow, ice, humidity, springs, creks

ground water and precipitation

OK, I see a draw coming off the left hand side at the upper end. That one is obvious.

Also, lots of quarries have rock or sand seams that can connect them to others. Thus, they share water like any other aquifer. If your quarry is lower than the surrounding area, ground water should maintain it unless you get a serious drought. If it's ground water, you would have a tough time ever pumping it dry. Of course, if a deeper quarry is dug nearby, on the same aquifer, your water hole could be toast.

Are they pumping from that mess on the right hand side of the pic?

Creek, surface runoff, precip, underwater limestone spring/cave system (sorry, the SCUBA diver in me had to suggest that one!).

Going to throw out a guess of surface runoff, springs, wells, and a creek.

This could turn out to be one of those edumicational games.

Nice question.

The quarry started on the west side of the highway, and then mining became less efficient and profitable so they moved to the east side. Now they've quit. Bonus point available for Davidson. Why did you ask?

Anyways...NO, they're not pumping. It's an abandoned mining effort.

Also, there are some good guesses. Points are being handed out left and right. I'm going to only award points if your source would account for at least 1% of water currently in the pit. So "people spitting in quarry" won't count.

I was going to go with "other bodily functions that produce liquids" when I remembered that we're talking Nebraska, not Texas.

Groundwater , rain-snow etc, runoff-creeks/ditches etc , wells , pumping/dewatering from other sources.

Guys this is a trick question designed to disguise what Bruce is really trying to do at this property.

You must first ask yourself why does Bruce want to know where the water is coming from?

Is it perhaps that he wants to build more ponds here?

Haha! This JHAP's one of a kind. And I mean that in the nicest way. I think.

Brilliant!

...

rain and snow
run off
ground water
springs
septic system drain fields
storm drains

Garden hose.

The Brettski and Cecil method?



Oops, sorry that was two answers.

Just what all are these "points" good for?

Frequent fishing miles

Prizes and lodging.

You know, I looked at that doctored photo with the additional quarry lakes, and I just now figured out what was so funny.

Find another BOW on the same watershed and tell me what's different between it and the quarry lake. (Not an official question....this is just a prompt for the previous question)

I was not going to play but now knowing points go toward prizes and lodging. I say due to clairty/color the major water source is GROUNDWATER via aquifer and not as much surface runoff as others seem to think.

I'm guessing those two L shaped lakes are for trolling.

Bing

is the limestone fossileferous?

since i cant edit posts, i have to correct for prior fat finger typos......sp: fossiliferous

is the limestone fossiliferous?

Is it a limestone quarry or gravel - what was mined?

there was a pic bruce posted on page 2 of the home run thread that looks like highly fractured although relatively undeformed limestone:

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=202808&fpart=2


i never congratulated you BTW bruce.....as such
congrats
i'm just a bit jealous in el dorado

So DIED you were mining the other thread for data to give you an advantage here? Just like a Geologist. Good thought- I should have thought of that. -

i'm not sure there is enough elevation in the region for this thought, its hard to tell on sat.image (w/out contour lines) but it appears there could be some form of terraced drain system between the active pit east of the hwy, to bruces filled pit west of the hwy both connected to the e-w running creek north of both properties. when they quit digging on the west side, they dammed it up so it could fill w/ groundwater and precipitation. also explains why they dont have to pump out the active quarry. thoughts??

Muddy or stained water.

Yes and could also be a fractured drain from the east pit to the west so Bruce gets the water from both GW and rain/runoff attributable to both irrespective of surface elevation.

It was my understanding the the mined limestone was crushed to make white rock for our country roads.

There's a double score.

Double points.

Triple points. Geoligist consulted believes that the east side pit, because of the "recontouring" is trapping groundwater and sending it west to the quarry pit.

Question #2:

What direction does the primary watershed run and why?

Single point available.

I haven't run across any fossils, but I haven't really looked very much. Some of the limestone is very solid, while in many other areas it's very soft. How would I look?

East to West

The other ponds in the area look like the dam is on the west or northwest side.

The draw DD mentioned earlier looks like it could be the spillway instead of the infow.

i agree w/ you chris but for a different reason.

if you look at pic 1 (the far away shot) you can easily discern the dendritic pattern of the drainage. water flows from the outermost branches towards the main trunk......east to west....

who's line is it anyway?
this could be the game where the points dont matter, kind of like the first 47 minutes of an NBA game

"Dendritic"

I love it! :-)

There's a bonus point for use of the word dendritic.

Examples of dendritic patterns...

LOL

1/2 point for being funny.

I figure I'm so far behind that I won't catch up, besides I will be pretty busy in the next 2 days.

So, I have 2 questions for Bruce:
1) How many other houses are/could be in the future on this BOW?

2) It looks like there was a road or berm separating the East BOW from the West BOW, but that isn't there in the most recent satellite view. How deep did they dig that area when the soil/rocks were removed?

NEVER give up. Don't EVER give up! There will be questions worth way more points later on. And there will be questions that are only up until the first person answers. So there will be TONS of opportunities to catch up!

Answer to you first question: Only two more houses can ever be built on the lake. Mine will be one of them, and the other does not seem to be anywhere in the immediate future.

Answer to the second question: The owner of the final lakeside lot dammed the eastern north/south arm so that he could personally excavate it just a couple of years ago. After excavation was complete, he removed his makeshift dam and the East arm was born! I was out on that arm on the ice last Sunday, and the entire arm immediately drops off to 7 feet of water, but doesn't seem to exceed 9 feet anywhere. In my book it's perfect, because it will be very resistant to rooted vegetation growth due to steep sides, but shallow enough to never entirely stratify. It should all be productive water.

Acceptable answers for first question were "surface water" and "groundwater".

Points so far. By the way, don't bother complaining about the points. I can't add anyway.

DIED--7
ewest--4
Grimes--4
Dwight--2.1
BM--2
CJBS--2
DD1--1
Todd3138--2
Omaha--2
Youngblood--1
JHAP--3/4
Yolkie--1/2

There will be prizes for 1st, 2nd and randomly picked participant. If you are randomly chosen I will donate $25 to Jesse West Foundation in your name.

West to East.

Pond location is East of the Contenental Divide, and West of the Mississippi River.

Now, if you want the secondary watershed direction, that's a horse of a different color.......

Oh I got this one in the bag, anyone can see this is a typical oxbow lake. It was formed by the river that miraclous disappeared so it now has no watershed at all, nice try Bruce.



ok I will go north to south just to be different as long as I do not have to show my math.

After further reflection, I need to clarify my answer. The primary watershed is the Mississippi Watershed, which runs West to East until it actually enters the Mississippi River, then it runs from North to South.

Wouldn't that make the "pictured watershed" actually the tertiary or quaternary watershed?

Yes, but you asked for primary.....

Rephrase evidently needed.

Question #2:

See that creek thingie just to the north of the quarry lake? Is the water running to the left (west), or to the right (east)?

It's running to the Left (West).

And it's a pretty good drop down to it from the pond as well!

i just lost a 6$ rapala in the mouth of a 5+ pound lmb

what did we learn? i shouldnt have grabbed my ultra light for a quickie

bruce, if you mean that sharp drainage thingy just above the pond and east of the silver building in pic#3 (it kind of looks like an eyebrow), water is draining left to right (headed east) in that feature unlike the creek above.

Downhill

Naw, Dave, you were right to begin with. The main creek, which is called "Brush Creek", spans the first photo from left to right. That's what I was wondering about. The dendritic part.

The "eyebrow" I was looking at just a couple of hours ago. It's a key part of a later question.

Are we fishing in this quarry tomorrow? It's going to be a nice day.

Was that feature formed with a scraper?

Nope.

Three quarters of a point?????

I'm not complaining, I'm lodging a formal protest.

It took me a half an hour to create that drawing. Did you look at the shading in the pond? The shear genius of the idea. The magnificent execution. I'm willing to bet that you are going to print that out and hang it on your refrigerator.

I deserve AT LEAST 15/16 of a point, possibly even 19/20ths.

Well at least I'm beating the hell out of Yolk.

You have 50% more points than Yolk, and since those are purely humor points...well, you know what that means.

I take it that means no prizes for Yolk and I. Not even a pack of Juicy Fruit gum, not even a tangle of slightly used fishing line, not even a certificate for 10% off of a root canal procedure.

This is worth another 1/8 point.

Nice, now I'm up to 7/8ths of a point. Take that Yolkie!!!

you get 10% off the MSRP of a root canal. But Bruce probably normally does it for 1/2 price.

Boy o boy!!! been out of touch for a while and did I ever miss some fun!!!

Uh Oh, one of the bosses is back. Everybody be nice.

It's not too late to join in!!!! I've got the next question ready, but I'm giving anybody the rest of the afternoon to anser the last question. It's so easy, a Caveman could do it.

47.

I'm going to guess west to east (right) since it looks like it's main source is about a mile west of the quarry. This is my second shot in the dark.

E-W right to left

I am guessing it flows west to east...

Must not be interested in winning prizes...

If man made intervention, it could run either way if draining of land is important. A topo might give an indicator. Some of my original thoughts about strip mining are so obvious that I don't figure you would have asked them. E-W on direction and I don't think it would have to make any difference, on this specific plot of land, which side of the Continental Divide it is on.

From the orientation of the picture, I have to go with left to right for the creek thingie. I have another theory on your quarry itself, that being that the water, independent of wind influence, would flow from the narrow end towards the broad end.

I went down to the creek that's on the north side of the quarry last week when we were having a minor snow meltoff, and the water was indeed running from East to West, or right to left.

Question #3. Where's the dam?

....five points for first correct answer. 2 points for every additional correct answer.

I may be off base here, but I'm going with the dam being the wide "end" of the lake, or maybe more accurately described at the top of the left side of the "U" shape (top left as we're viewing it in the pics). I'm saying that based on the evident underwater slope visible in the pics, suggesting to me anyway that it's where the dam materials were piled up and sloped into the water. Plus, with you confirming the water runs in that direction, that's my basis for guessing this way!

i agree todd if we're talkin the same place.

here's my take...most of the lake is filled pit. there is a small (primary) dam on the left (west) with a spillway feature. but also, it appears the quarry company bermed the north east side....its not the main dam but appears bermed to build the road, and to prevent water from moving north towards lower elevations.

Yep, DIED, we are talking in the same area, although I'm probably looking a little more up towards that somewhat defined corner than you are after looking at your picture again. I kind of thought about the narrow end for a minute, but it seemed less likely given the overall shape and from my uneducated guesses about the various water features. I had never considered that "creek thingie" as Bruce described it to be a spillway, but that's an interesting supposition you make. I like it! Too bad I'm already committed to saying it's an inflowing stream (from one of my earlier answers) or I might just have to join you on that !

My guess is The dam is where I made the yellow gob east of the road.

Close...but gets extra credit for nice effort.

I meant for this to be a trick question, but it didn't fool DIED. Yes there are two dams, and they are both outlined precisely in this answer.

DAM IT!!!! I thought it was going to be trickier then that.

Current standings.

DIED = 12
Todd3138 = 5 1/2
ewest = 4 1/2
Greg Grimes = 4
Dwight = 2.1
Burgermeister = 2
CJBS = 2
DaveDavidson = 2
Omaha = 2
Youngblood = 1
essup = 1
blair5002 = 1
JHAP = 7/8
Yolkie = 1/2

Question #4:

Tell me why there's a clue on this summertime map as to where there are currently thin/weak spots in the ice this winter.

3 points for correct answers. 5 points for first correct answer.

I was thinking the pit on the east side of road has blocked the natural water flow and directed it underground to your pond.

I believe you are exactly right. The anecdotal evidence is that the static water level has increased since the natural water flow has been impeded on the east side of the road. The only problem is, that was going to be question #5! I'll give you a bonus point!

Nice!!!

Alright, I don't know what happened, but I tried posting this once and hit a key accidentally and the unfinished answer disappeared. If it shows up later, I'm pleading to the court for leniency in not considering this as an edited answer and disqualifying it!

I am calling two areas where there could be thin ice issues.

1) The narrow end of the lake for two reasons: a) Your observation that surface water flow tends to run from that area towards the wide end. As such, since it's a more constricted area where surface action is more likely be a factor than the wider areas, that may present difficulties for consistent freezing, and b) from the pictures, it looks like that area is more affected by wind action at the surface, another factor making it a little tougher to get a solid freeze compared to areas where the surface is more protected from wind movement.

2) On the wide end, right around the dam area and back towards the dark spot that sits sort of in the middle of the channel. My reasoning, a) That end of the lake will also have some additional wind exposure that will keep the surface a little more agitated, b) the outflow into the dam overflow identified by DIED will have increased water movement and correspondingly thinner ice, and c) here's where I'm going way out on a limb, I think that dark spot in the middle of the channel is an opening to a subsurface "well" within the limestone aquifer and that there is water upwelling there. That water is going to be warmer and I believe it will cause a column of warmer water that will resist freezing, perhaps altogether except on the coldest days.

There. I've said it. I'm committed to it. I just hope my novice-ness doesn't come back and bite me in the backside for it!

no fair, the questions are gettin harder.

i agree todd, sure looks like there could be springs or upwelling groundwater in the deep areas on the western arm.

potential spring loci:

before bruce gets to his next question i have to offer an alternative origin for the pond, for you conspiracy theorists, the quarry company did not create that pit at all, and the mining operations were conducted to exploit rare extra terrestrial metals - the pond's geomorphology cries out for this.....you be the judge.....







hmmm.....

Quick Question

Can one of you really smart people show me where I can get a water flood calculation or an archive link that has it? I cannot find it and the ones I located on the internet all deal with programs that I have no clue....The simpler the better....humbling asking...blush blush...

from my perspective, its a great question but not a quick question. there are many variables to consider for an accurate calculation including water shed size, channel sizes, statistical analysis of historic precipitation amounts particularly as they relate to selected time periods (i.e. 24-hr event, 48-hr event, etc...), soil types, permeability, infiltration, run-off volume and rates.....most of these variables have to be estimated or calculated on their own then plugged into "master equation" to accurately predict or estimate peak flood conditions and subsequent design of spillways etc...thats why people hire engineers

if ewest or somebody else knows of or can find a link to a simpler approach, i'd love to see it as well.

hijack off...

p.s. coupe.....start a new thread and re-ask the question, it'l get some attention

Thanks.
Really had no idea....blush

The "springs" as DIED notes are really fractured limestone that connects to both the groundwater on site and to the quarry to the east which is impounded by the road and forced through the fracture system to Bruce's pond. I think that gets 2 questions.

Not sure what you mean by "a water flood calculation ". There are several threads on sizing overflow systems and on caculating watershed.

Actually, the entire area is an aquifer.

i think yer right dave. i think there might be two things going on w/ the groundwater. you have the unconfined water table, and the "springs" which are probably best termed as "upwelling groundwater" emanating through the fractured limestone (as ewest indicated) from a confined aquifer below.

brief hijack....couppe, probably what most folks do, as a shoot from the hip, is estimate the cross-sectional area of the channel entering the pond, and build spillway significantly larger than this (over build for safety). when you estimate the area, make sure to consider the higest flood line possible.

DIED correctly identifies all of the springs. Isn't it amazing that the springs are identifiable by sattelite???!!!!!??? Each dark area on the map is exactly correlated with a thin, clear, cracked spot that we can find on the ice currently. Evidently the water that is rising up from the limestone as ground water is clearer (probably absent algae) than the surrounding water and shows up different colored from the sky. These "springs" were also the last areas to freeze up this fall, actually by over a week. Five points for DIED.

Really an outstanding and well thought out assessment. I'm going to grant 5 points for this one as well.

DIED = 17 1/4
Todd3138 = 10 1/2
ewest = 7 1/2
DD1 = 5
Greg Grimes = 4
Dwight = 2.1
Burgermeister = 2
blair5002 = 2
CJBS = 2
Omaha = 2
Youngblood = 1
essup = 1
JHAP = 7/8
Yolkie = 1/2

Question #5.

Along Nebraska's Interstate-80, there are a series of "borrow pits" that were created when the interstate was being built. Evidently there was fill material needed for highway construction, and it was "borrowed" from nearby areas. These borrow pits support viable populations of redear sunfish, that can reproduce and sometimes exceed 1 pound in weight. Generally speaking, most Nebraska waters are not as hospitable to shellcrackers. Local biologists believe that these borrow pits, which DO NOT receive the majority of their water through surface runoff have a certain characteristic which helps supports redears. This characteristic is also shared by the quarry lake. What characteristic do the borrow pits and the quarry lake share that could lead to improved overall conditions for redear sunfish? Two points for all correct answers, except a bonus point will be given for first answer, and any other creative suggestions regarding stocking and maintaining viable redear sunfish populations in the quarry lake.

I am guessing the borrow pits and quarry have very deep areas meaning their is a lot of water volume that is harder to warm or cool. This fact means the temperature of these water bodies does not change as rapidly as a shallower pond would. This means RES which are more sensitive to this do better. Also, I think the waters have higher alkalinity levels supporting more diverse and larger numbers of molluscs like snails and clams and crustaceans like shrimp and crayfish which RES love to eat.

I know nothing about RES temp tolerance. I think Travis may be right about the water chemistry not changing as rapidly due to lack of runoff. Assuming that it is the same aquifer type area (There is probably a six bit word for that.) it should also stay a little warmer due to lack of snow melt inflow allowing for longer growing/feeding seasons.

A non changing water quality and temp will allow for more forage. I'm not sure about the mollusks and crustaceans. I figure RES will eat anything whether it is preferred or not.

BTW, is there a difference in protein levels between finned forage as versus bivalves and crustaceans?

What he said. With regards to stocking the gravel quarry, I think if you could use a block-off net to raise a goodly number (i.e. 200 or so per acre) of RES to maturity and release them into the pond at the same time. I don't know if a smaller amount of fish released into the pond will ensure a naturally reproducing population. Since RES don't readily take to pellets, I'd look into blocking off an area very early after ice-out and concentrate on improving the habitat in that area to make it very habitable to forage that RES will target, then boost that area with shrimp, crayfish and snails.

If that wasn't an option, and I had a forage pond available, I'd run a test for a year trying to cage raise RES using FHM and shrimp based pellets. With your contacts, you should be able to find someone who has the pellets in a commercial sized bag. They are made for aquarium raised tropical fish.

cj beat me to it. I agree- more groundwater equals warmer temps and high alk and rock substrate= more mollusks where res can use their crushers to their advantage.

question 5 sounds pretty well answered. my left coast wording would sound somthing like this:
groundwater is basically the same temperature all year round (there is some variation but it is insulated). groundwater fed lakes therefore have more stable temps and are warmer in winter and cooler in summer than surface water fed lakes. add a rocky substrate which freshwater mollusks and crustaceans love, and you have a great RES crib

As DIED said, the answer is probably already covered, but my inclination was going to be to go with warmer temps in general from the aquifer water source leading to better growing conditions and a longer growing season for the fish. Unfortunately, I'm still enough of a novice to not have made a connection to snails/mollusks being able to thrive better, but I did know that RES like to eat 'em!

Thanks!

Allow me to make a general observation here, Bruce - I am really enjoying this quiz thread! I don't know much about ponds yet, being brand new to ownership, but this has been a blast and I've thoroughly enjoyed the mental exercise of really thinking about the questions and learning a lot from the answers being provided. It's giving me a lot of great idea of things to learn about my own ponds as I enter into spring and start really trying to dig into what makes them tick and learn about the seasonal changes and "moods" they take on.

Thanks for the great thread!

This is definitely what I was looking for. Nebraska Game and Parks biologist Daryl Bauer told me that some areas of the borrow pits are extremely slow to ice over because of insulated ground water moving laterally through the pit.

I've noticed that the catfish I catch in the quarry lake will have crayfish antennae sticking out of their gullet on a regular basis. I'm hopeful that the redears will have plenty of shelled food to utilize.

To my surprise, I found that the quarry lake is actually not very deep. It drops off immediately to 8 feet, but the maximum I've found so far is 12.

Not to sidetrack, but what all have you caught in the lake so far?

DIED = 20 1/4
Todd3138 = 13 1/2
DD1 = 8
ewest = 7 1/2
Greg Grimes = 7
CJBS = 5
essup = 4
Dwight = 2.1
Burgermeister = 2
blair5002 = 2
Omaha = 2
Youngblood = 1
JHAP = 7/8
Yolkie = 1/2

Largemouth Bass
Bluegill
Bluegill X Green sunfish hybrids
Channel Catfish

Rumored to be in the lake: Big Black crappie

My man DIED! My left coast brother is taking no prisoners.

Plus I'm killing Yolkie.

Take that GSF haters!

Question #6.

I took scale samples, and weighed several largemouth bass. The bass that were between 5-10 inches had good body condition. The bass that were between 10-15 inches had poor body condition.

Interesting however, a couple of bass sampled that were 20 inches had excellent body condition.

Given what you see on the maps, and what we've learned about quarry systems, what might be some of the reasons that we see these variances. One point each (entirely at my discretion) for plausible answers. They don't have to be "right" answers. Just "plausible". Maximum of five points awarded.

I'm now revealing the prizes.

1st place. A weekend lodging at the new Conderosa, including meals, bait, float tube and expert fish guiding service. But you'll have to get your sorry ass over here. And a selection of Condello's special "wiper magic" jigs that can be used for live bait rigging, or attaching twister tails.


2nd place. A selection of Condello's special "wiper magic" jigs that can be used for live bait rigging, or attaching twister tails.

Randomly drawn participant gets donation made to Jesse West Foundation in their name.

All other participants: I will periodically use my powers as moderator to change your posts to make you look dumb. (Just kidding).

Jeez what a lousy rumor.

We can do better that that. I mean come on, picture two guys fishing and one guy leans into the other and says.. "Psssst, I heard a good rumor." The other guys says "Really, whad ya hear?" First guys says "There's black crappie in these here waters."

Come on where's the drama, where's the suspense, where's the fear factor. That's got to be one of the most lousy rumors I've ever heard. That won't keep children awake at night.

This is a much better rumor...

1st Fisherman: "Dude, I was fishing here last evening and I see Ted across the way over there trying out a new rod and reel combo."

2nd Fisherman: "Oh, how was he doing?"

1st Fisherman: "The usual he'd caught a couple and got a couple of bites but you wouldn't believe what happened next!"

2nd Fisherman: "So what happened."

1st Fisherman: "Well it looked like he got a huge strike when all of the sudden out of the Quarry comes this green slimy critter. I'm telling ya that thing had to have been 6 foot tall. It grabs Ted and drags him kicking and screaming into the quarry pond. There was blood every where it was horrible. The thing had huge claws, I'm telling ya it tore Ted to shreds.

2nd Fisherman: "Good lord so you saw it yourself?"

1st Fisherman: "Heck yea I saw it, I even snapped this photo of it on my cell phone, lookie here."


2nd Fisherman: "Jeez did ya call the cops after seeing the Quarry Creature?"

1st Fisherman: "Of course not, whatareya nuts? I don't want everyone knowing about our secret fishing hole."

2nd Fisherman: "Oh right, I almost forgot, Quarry Fishing Rule 7, subsection 3. NEVER, EVER tell anyone about the secret quarry fishing spot."

2nd Fisherman: "So what lure was he using?"

1st Fisherman: "Looked like an 1/8 ounce Roostertail."

2nd Fisherman: "Oh, great lure."

1st Fisherman: "Yup, great lure."

i better start sabotaging my answers, i dont want a sorry ass

but i'll answer this question as follows:

when they (the lmb) are young, they have food

when they are older, they dont have enough food.

a couple (very small %) of the young ones figure out how to keep eating as they get older, and they turn into nice fish.

hows that?

There are very limited habitat areas for LMB, and the larger LMB are hogging the good areas.

ah, so thats why they call them hogs.

also dynamics between bass growth and forage base. the quarry lake doesnt have sufficient or appropriate forage for adult lmb, but it can support a few hogs.

this lake has the makings to grow some huge GSF



dittos....but i'm not sure why i enjoy this, probably becuase i'm a sorry ass tard.

Don't sell yourself short! You're actually a really first-rate tard.

I'll throw one out there...

At one point the pond had good forage, allowing a few bass to the reach the 20" range. Then the forage dropped and most of the bigger bass died off. Those few left have much more to eat which makes their WR higher. The in between bass still don't have much to eat. The little guys are in a whole different class or forage which is plentiful and they do well.

Exactly what I would suspect - just seems to show the life cycle of the lake to this point. Bountiful, to not quite so much so, and then a 3rd generation of LMB that are able to thrive pretty nicely on the forage in their right size range. Sucks to be the middle child (class of LMB) in this case!

"Hey, that hat looks good on you, though!" (Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Beuller?)

Lots of good answers. You're ticklin' it.

I'll give more information.

The population density is high for all size classes of LMB.

The population density is low to moderate for all size classes of BG.

Any speculation about what the big LMB might be eating?

I did some stomach lavage on LMB. The smaller ones were full of zooplankton. The medium ones were full of air.....

Bueller?

I am betting the big ones are eating other largemouths... Along with the few HBG offspring and the mid sized classes of those mystical massive crappie you've been hearing about.

I think you might be missing a year class or 2 of forage. Like was posted earlier, small LMB have the correct size and quantity of food. 10"-15" LMB are missing out on the correct (size and quantity) of food. They are getting by, but either the food is too large for them to swallow, or too small and they have to expend a lot of energy chasing it down. The next year class of LMB (20") are large enough to eat larger prey, which is more plentiful.

That pond is still relatively young; I'm betting you don't find LMB older than about 6 years old?

Yes, that's true.

I made an error on the last post.

Bruce, how can it be both? Are you saying that the pop. density is high for the 10"-15" size class of LMB and low for the other two size classes? If that's the case, then either the middle class of fish pulled off a huge spawn with very high recruitment, and the other classes didn't, or just the reverse happened with the forage base.

Dang it, I didn't type fast enough.

O.K. then I'm sticking with my forage answer.

Small LMB do well because of the vast amount of good growth from the inverts , snails , craws , shrimp etc due to excellent limestone water ( crust. love lime rich water (Ca for the shells and plankton + to eat). Not enough forage between the sizes of 3-5 inches due to samll LMB eating it up. Big LMB eat samll to mid LMB plus craws + other forage.

Optimun water temps around springs provide longer growing season for the big LMB who stake out the prime spots.

Lime rich water produces good fertility for bugs and invert for small fish.

Oversized year class spawn 3+- years ago with not enough morts (natural or harvest).

Possible poor spawn 1+- year ago due to weather or water event reducing forage for now 10-15 inchers.

Small number of bed locations (not much shallow water) with reduced spawning due to lack room so abnormal spawing possibility is high.

Best answer!

Funniest answer: 13/16ths point

3 points!!!

point....word

esshup, CJBS and Todd nice answers!

I've got one word fer ya.

CANNIBALS!

DIED = 23 1/4
Todd3138 = 16 1/2
ewest = 12 1/2
DD1 = 8
CJBS = 8
Greg Grimes = 7
essup = 7
Dwight = 2.1
Burgermeister = 2
blair5002 = 2
Omaha = 2
JHAP = 1 9/16
Sunil = 1
Youngblood = 1
Yolkie = 1/2

Question #7:

I read a report that said that in 2006 the Quarry Lake was inundated with sago pondweed. It was found in all parts of the lake, in very high density. The association members explored possibilities for eradication. The next three years however, there was virtually no sago pondweed to be found. Speculate on why 2006 might have been such a bad year for this submergent vegetation.

The map at the beginning of the thread was not taken in 2006



Clue above?

No Texans visiting since '06?

2006 was the year that the North East arm was pumped dry for excavation.

1) The increased level in the remaining pond caused an influx of nutrients due to added organic material in the water.
2) Pumping the arm dry also added to the nutrient load.

On second thought, it might have been late 2005 that the arm was pumped dry?

This is my favorite part of the game. You guys keep thinking of things the biologist, hydrologists and engineers didn't think of.

Hold that thought. You're going to get a bonus point for creativity, but try a different approach.

17/16ths of a point. Very funny.

The year prior the offsetting watershed (old Quarry) was reclaimed by planting grass and fertilizing. It washed into your quarry and the sago took off. Maybe it was an adjoining hay or crop field.

Such creative minds!

I'll give you some information that you couldn't know unless you lived here...

2006 was the final year of a 5 year drought.

Looking at that picture, the water is very clear, but that isn't Sago in the picture, now, is it? I believe that the pond saw an influx of nutrients, coupled with better water clarity, which combined to produce the increased Sago growth. The growth didn't happpen the following year due to a reduction in available nutrients, reduction in water clarity, or a combination of both. Probably due to the amount of water flowing thru the pond.

Okay, stealing some inspiration from Esshup's thoughts, I'm going to say that was the year that the dam, or roadway, or whatever it was that was at the end of the small arm, was removed. In one of the first pictures that was posted of this lake, there was an earthen structure that cross from from the big house at the point of the lake over to the other side, but in the pics that you ultimately posted here, that dam/structure was removed. That work may have caused the influx of nutrients, etc. through the debris that ended up in the lake and from the narrow end of the lake being essentially emptied into the bigger section of the lake. I'm speculating that the narrow end had a somewhat different chemistry to it than the big "side" of the lake, due to it being a smaller body of water, having less ability to exchange its contents due to being dammed up, and that it was more fertile and perhaps supported a better plankton bloom since it was smaller and more susceptible to environmental impacts. When that was dumped into the big part of the lake, it had the effect that Esshup mentioned in changing the chemistry enough that it maybe caused an effective bloom and ultimately blocked out some of the sunlight and caused a reduction/elimination of the pondweed.

Rambling, I know, but I'm trying to think out loud and get some points, baby!

Correct. That's not sago. In that picture there is a light algae bloom, with the groundwater coming in as a truer blue.

Here's where my pond ignorance kicks in and kicks my butt! Assuming the repost of Question #7 is to suggest none of us have hit it yet, how about the emergence of whatever that is in the picture snuffing out the growth of the Sago PW? Maybe it's a type of vegetation that does even better in nice clear water than does Sago, and it simply took over, dominated the growing conditions for Sago, and basically did a natural job of eliminating it? I like this thinking out loud bit and the exercise of guessing at the answers, but kills me to wait to see if I'm even on the right track!

BTW, the photo is of sago pondweed.

I'm confused, then. Was your reply below not referring to the embedded pic that started question 7?



My ignorance of aquatic vegetation has got me hamstrung on this question! Crap! The overheat warning light in my brain just went into overdrive!

Ahh. I see. I was saying that in the satellite picture it was not sago, but in the underwater picture, that IS sago. Does that make better sense?

Might you be suggesting, then, that the return of more normal water levels submerged the established Sago plants to a depth that was too deep for it to really proliferate? I'll keep reaching for straws here until the question is closed or until you stop offering hints or you tell me I've exhausted my right to participate on this question!

Often times after an extended drought, a lot of nutrients build up as there is no rain to wash them away. When the rains finally come, they flood a ton of nutrients into a water system. This can cause negative affects... In your quarry pond this caused an excessive growth of sago pondweed... In the Chesapeake Bay it causes excessive blooms and then subsequent die offs of algae which then cause wide spread fish kills in the summer.

Perfectly clear now!

Keep participating. I'll keep throwing out clues.

What happens to a quarry during a drought? Keep your answer very, very simple. Five words or less. Not an official question...but a clue.

The water level drops. So, from that assumption, I'm also going to venture a guess that the water warms more easily and perhaps with warming, the overall conditions change and create better growing circumstances for some plants, such as Sago. Then, when the drought ends, more water is present, temps are more moderated, and ideal conditions for that species no longer exist.

At some point, I suspect I'm going to get a JHAP 7/8 point score awarded to me on this question as a mercy killing so I'll stop with all this nonsense!

Well, the water level drops... Since you mentioned the pond is only a known max depth of 12', a drop of just a couple feet could open up a substantially larger area of pond bottom to sago pondweed growth that otherwise would have been too deep for the plant to grow in...

Good.

Now what else happens to a body of water when it doesn't rain for five years? Three words or less. L___ S________ S_______

Hey! That was my theory (even if you expressed it better and more succinctly than I did!)! And since you're one of the guys whose posts I always read since you're pretty doggone smart on pond issues, I am suddenly feeling good about my answer!

Best I got is in an extended drought you can see an increase in nitrates and salts in a water body.

wow alot happened while i was gone today. this question is way too hard for me, but i gottsta try..

that "three words or less" puzzle is worse than the wheel of fortune final.

since the pond recovered form the drought, was the sago able to re-establish itself in the "new shallows"?

everybody already said what i would have guessed and thats the increased nutrients, decreased depth, and increased light penetration factors you'd expect with a drought stricken pond...this made the calcareous (limestone) bottom substrate favorable for mass sago growth.

once the groundwater rose back to "normal" levels, more efficient nutrient flushing would occur, suspended particles and plankton growth increased turbidity to the point sago couldnt get going on its deeper substrate, let alone reach the surface, so it failed only one year after its climax.

happy valentine's day

i had bacon and shrimp fer dinner

where's bill cody?

its not too late....knowing dr. condello (a little bit) he'll make the last question worth 50 pts.

theo?, rad? burger? brettski? not even some humor points? jeeez...keep at it jhap, what you got?

What happens to a quarry during a 5 year drought? Depending on the depth of the water table relative to the pond depth, maybe nothing. However, I suspect that the natural springs reversed their flow and took rather than gave.

Looking at only these pictures, there is no way of knowing about this BOW during the drought. The aquifer could either be pretty extensive or limited to that area.

Not knowing the actual history, it may also be that this thing dried up or was pumped dry and further mining could have deepened it until the springs were hit.

During a "normal" time of rainfall, you would have a tough time pumping this place dry. Finding aquifers/ground water that cannot be pumped out has always been the bane of mining.

Can I buy a vowel?

Less Suspended Solids?

....or sediment.

OK, combine Less Suspended Sediment, with lower water levels...what would that mean to rooted vegetation?

Going back to my increased water clarity statement, it will allow the plants to grow in "virgin" soil that was in what used to be deeper water, that hasn't had the nutrients sucked out of it by plant growth in previous years.

What would stir up the sediment? If water was infiltrating thru cracks in the limestone, wouldn't those areas be clear of sediment in the first place?

Maybe this is too simple (but simplification seems to be what you are encouraging with your last few hints!), but it seems to me that:

* lower water and less water exchange
* combined with less suspended sediment
* means the sediment is settling on the bottom
* and providing a rather nice rooting/growing environment for the Sago
* therefore the weed simply took off during the drought

Once the water level returned to normal:

* the exchange of water increased and
* there was more natural current within the lake so
* the sediments started moving around again (into suspension)
* there was deeper water over the thriving weed beds and
* less light was getting to those areas as a pure function of depth and also due to increased suspension of sediment (is turbidity the right term to use here?) so
* the Sago just couldn't grow well any longer

Do I get any points or is it time for the mercy killing angle with me??!!

Too funny!!!

Everytime that it rains, there's surface runoff that comes from the association lawns and rocky edges. This would bring in all sorts of limestone debris. I was there after a rain last fall and the water turned gray. Even though a quarry gets it's water primarily from groundwater, it is subject to the same sedimentary challenges when it rains. What else might come off of the association lawns?

Fertilizer and probably some dirt/silt.

And weed killer!!!!

Very basic here - not using Bruce's hint.

Water , Dirt (nutrients) and Light + plants = plant growth. During a drawdown (intentional or natural) you get less water with increased nutrients and more available light. When you get additional water it is loaded with extra nutrients from the exposed soils.

Geeeeze - 3 posts while I was typing.

Good explanation and indeed very simple to understand. You could be a lawyer!

This thread continues to be a lot of fun to follow. I imagine you guys have a pretty substantial audience locked in and subscribed to this one.

less water and longer sunlight exposure. Prime reasons not to fertilize in the summer.

Very good. Now employ the "quick-start" theory.

Imagine the fifth year of a drought. The entire basin (which is only 12 feet deep) is awash with light. A ubiquitous plant like sago has been present in limited numbers the previous fall. It takes off in April. What happens to the available nutrients?

The nutrients get used up quickly by the increased plant load. But, they'll be replenished by any rain due to them leaching out of and washing off of the surrounding lawns.

They get used in growth of the weeds and escalate growth, perhaps beyond a normal growth rate. You've basically dumped "miracle grow" into the water, I'm thinking.

Didn't the number of houses surrounding the pond increase by more than double between 2003 and 2006? If that's the case, then the corresponding nutrients washing into the pond would significally increase as well. Forget about rainwater and surface run-off, if you put in a new lawn, you really need to pour the water to it (IIRC 1"/week?), and the water would find it's way into the pond thru groundwater, bringing along some of the starter fertilizer as well.

Interesting point. And true as well.

When an agressive rooted plant like sago gets off to a quick start, it will literally consume all of the nutrients. What does this do to the single celled algae?

so yer saying its all about the turbidity?

oh, and following on my question from last night, forget all those guys i wondered where they are (and anybody i forgot...like cecil, etc....) this quiz dont need em....TODD and ESSHUP you guys are doing a GREAT JOB

Clear water - more light to the rooted plants. They reach their biological limit and use up the nutrients. Nothing for the plankton to consume – less plankton clearer water. A real circle of light. Then when the nutrients are used up the rooted plants die back. They start to decompose adding nutrients back for the plankton to grow again cutting off the light and less rooted plants.

...or lack thereof.

Low water + low inorganic sediment inflow (drought) = increased sunlight penetration to bottom substrate.

Increased sunlight penetration to substrate means ideal conditions for submergent vegetation.

Significant growth of agressive submergent vegetation means decreased available nutrients available for single celled algae.

Decreased amount of single celled algae means Increased clarity. (increased or decreased)

Fill in the blank.

No food = you die. So you're saying that a more complex organism such as sago as compared to single celled algea is more effecient and better at utilizing nutrients, or are you saying that there are more nutrients in the pond substrate vs. dissolved in the water?

increased

Oo, oo, increased!

Nice.

But, nutrients don't have to be limited to what's in sediment. Nutrients can be dissolved in water as well - look at hydrophonics.

Which does what for the sago? (Helps or hurts)

Helps, but only in the short term right? Eventually they kill themselves off by their overabundance, taking all that your lake has.

That depends on what the goal for Sago is. Like Eric said it helps the Sago grow short term, but hurts the long term growth.

Bruce:

With the influx of groundwater, limited available nutrients, and relatively shallow overall pond depth, how will a photoplankton bloom stay established to minimize excessive submerged weed growth?

Why, thank you, DIED! I appreciate the compliment, especially since I feel like I'm taking random shots in the dark here! I feel sorta like Dustin Hoffman as Rainman - a bit of an idiot savante, though with the greater emphasis on idiot!

See, I've been going with the saying "Better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt".

Fair warning. I may feel the need to use that quote at some point in the future.

Sorry I've been absent for a bit - just finished a phone conference, but I'm back in the game now!

Well, even though you may have inadvertently answered this one yourself, I think I even would have figured out that this condition would lead to increased water clarity. Less nutrients available would definitely reduce algae's ability to grow/thrive from what I've learned over the past several months on the forum, which is why we strive to have the right balance in our ponds. Enough nutrients, we get a healthy bloom; not enough, you get increased clarity and greater light penetration and plant growth to deeper depths. I think I hit on the turbidity point a little earlier today, so it seems to make sense as things are all coming together, or at least I think so!

I'm catching up here, folks - looks like a handful of posts occurred while I was away from my computer. Esshup, I am taking this to be exactly what Bruce is saying if I am correctly understanding the line of questions here. The nutrients would be largely contained in the soil/substrate and would really foster good growth of the Sago. The nutrients still in the water, because there would have to be some still there, are probably also getting used up by the plants as they flourish.

Helps.

Definitely helps. It's a vicious cycle. Sago doesn't wax and wane like some emergents throughout the year. You can get a good bloom that lasts 6-7 months.

I'm thinking the regular influx of groundwater will aid by adding nutrients to the water on a fairly consistent basis and maybe that would be enough to sustain a bloom PROVIDED the right stuff is being washed into the lake. At some point, it makes sense that if there wasn't fertilizer or other reasonably rich sources of nutrient being carried in, the lake owners might have to add something, i.e., fertilizer, to get/keep the bloom going.

Is that at all a reasonable interpretation?

The goal for sago is to live year to year. Once sago uses up all the nutrients it doesn't die...it just stops growing...and waiting and lurking to steal each addition bit of nitrogen and phosphorous that re-enters the system, inluding the phosphorous and nitrogen that enter the system through the death of it's own brethren. Generally if sago gets off to a terrific start it will be embedded until you get some serious cold weather, usually 1st of November in Nebraska.

A theory to which I readily subscribe, my friend! (I've even used that with a client or two in my time - sometimes they even understand my point!) However, on this one, I've decided to wade right in and just let all my inhibitions go! No issues of personal pride here, baby!

Ideally you have just enough turbidity to limit sago's fast start. That way you can get some single celled algae to use nutrients and limit light penetration for the rest of the year. In 2009 I never saw a single stalk of sago. The water was deeper from recent (last three years) rainfall, and was also getting some light turbidity from early spring rains. The sago got off to a poor start then got outcompeted by the single celled algae. Another vicious cycle.

Understood!

sago is rhizome based i think, and doesnt like water depths >10 feet....so if a prolonged wet cycle kept the water levels up (via groundwater) wouldnt the rhizomes eventually rot out? sounds like in yer pond the rhizomes survived long enough for that next drought cycle.

any more non-geology questions.......i'm toast.

I think there's a slight overemphasis on the importance of nutrients to start the bloom. There are always enough nutrients in this part of the country. Some of you folks live in areas where the BOW's are chronically deficient, but not here. It's really all about who gets the sun first! Why can't you grow bluegrass in a pine forest? (rhetorical question)

Beautiful! I was waiting for that one. At some point every plant gets out of it's comfort zone. Anybody ever see a cattail growing out of 15 feet of water?

I'm not buying that rubbish, DIED! You just used "rhizome" in a coherent and appropriately contextual sentence! You're sandbagging, methinks!

I wonder if you will have more problems with Sago as time progresses. If you are the last house (in the foreseeable future) to be built on the surrounding land, there will be less bare ground exposed due to construction. As time goes on, there will be less and less surface run-off into the pond as the vegetation grows surrounding the pond. Which possibly means that there would be less suspended sediment washed into the pond, but not a reduction in dissolved nutrients (from the lawns). Same nutrient load (or increased nutrient load due to more fish in the pond as time goes on) and possibly increased water clarity unless the photoplankton gets a jump on the Sago in the Spring.

Great and simple illustration of this whole line of logic, Bruce. Thanks - makes a lot of this much more clear (kinda like your water!).

the sum of the parts has tickled this question to death.

Bruce:

I may be answering my own question here, but have you seen a problem with FA in the pond? (at any time of the year) If not, could it be the Sago assimilating the nutrients before the FA got a foothold?

.

Finally I have an (rhetorical) answer...

MUTANT SQUIRRELS!!!




I just knew that sooner or later mutant squirrels would be the answer to some question posted here.

It was only a matter of time.

somehow in all this i'm reminded of george bush sr's "thousand points of light".

By the way I also had an answer if the question was about a squirrel playing bluegrass.

Sooner or later that question will come up. Trust me.

Indeed! I actually learned something from it, too!

Now THESE posts are more within my range of understanding! Thank you, JHAP, for helping me stop the buzzing in my head!

merle "the squirrel" haggerd

haha. were you having one of those headaches, but with pictures?

Somewhat of a summary.

Low water + low inorganic sediment inflow (drought) = increased sunlight penetration to bottom substrate.

Increased sunlight penetration to substrate means ideal conditions for submergent vegetation.

Significant growth of agressive submergent vegetation means decreased available nutrients available for single celled algae.

Decreased amount of single celled algae means increased clarity.

Increased clarity means perpetuation of the rooted vegetation (the vicious cycle completed)

An entire pond of sago pondweed = mad landowners.

OK, so when the drought ended the next spring, why didn't the sago re-emerge?

That's the one!

I have to be missing something because I thought we had hit on that, but my thoughts are:

* Sago was "killed" off during cold winter
* Water levels increased prior to start of real sago growth
* Depth change impacted light penetration
* Surface runoff - including water, sediment, and lawn care products - "muddied" the water with a sort of nutrient soup
* These things all occurred at a time prior to the growth cycle for sago began
* algae was able to bloom in advance of the sago
* bloom eliminated clear water issue
* alage wasn't robbed of all its nutrients by sago and was able to maintain the bloom, blocking light for sago growth

and the squirrels quit playing "sago blossom special"

if todd didnt nail it, i smell landowner intervention.......(i.e. pond dye or something in addition to natural causes due to more water...depth, lack of light penetration, phytoplankton bloom)

Bingo!

When water is "muddied" during the spring, what part of the water column clarifies first? Top or bottom?

Interesting that you should say that, because there is a famous lake in Lincoln called Capital Beach that had a fantabulous sago takeover that occured last year due to water that was too clear. When they consulted me for possible solutions I suggested that they try to use a dye early in the year. You might wonder why they had their sago bloom in 2009, and the answer we've come up with is that the water has a super high salinity, and that most typical algae in this area that are saline tolerant are also "late bloomers" so to speak, and couldn't get a foothold before the sago took off.

By the way...

This thread already has over 1,500 different hits.

P.S. I hope I haven't made anybody mad by not directly addressing a couple of the great comments. It's hard to keep up with all the good stuff!

I thought I knew all the answers the these questions before I started, but there have been plenty of "food-fer-thought" things that have come up since we started!

And remember, from a figurative standpoint, either the sago or the single celled algae can be the pine trees. But it doesn't have to be domination of the sunlight specifically. When the algae dominates the light availability, it wins. When the sago dominates the nutrient availability, it wins.

This thread is growing faster than Bruce's sago crop and is hard to catch up with. Lots of good outside the box answers that make me stop and think.

Keep going Bruce !!!!

Funny, but I was thinking the same thing very early in this question! I didn't say so because I interpreted the question to mean that the neighbors all considered various treatments, but never actually acted on it. One of my very thoughts was Aquasahde. DIED, you and I are on a wavelength on this one!

I say the bottom as the heavier particulate will settle while the lighter/smaller stuff remains suspended for longer. closer to the surface is more subject to wave action from wind, currents, etc. and the particulate will remain suspended longer due to being agitated longer while the bottom is less affected by those things. Also, based on lots of scuba diving in mudholes over the years, it always seemed that at some point, often related to a thermocline in deep enough water, I would break through the really nasty stuff into better visibility.

Great point - hadn't really thought of it from the nutrient standpoint, but makes complete sense.

See, here's another example of some good thinking. I hadn't even considered bringing thermocline into the equation.

OK, let's rephrase. If you had a sealed glass jar of water, then added clay, and shook it up, would the top or the bottom water clarify more quickly?

I think I've doubled my previous post count just on answering this thread alone! (And this one makes number 400!)

By their very nature, all living things have ways of dominating their particular eco-systems. If they didn't, they wouldn't be here today. Evolution takes care of that.

I see your point - the top would definitely clarify more quickly. I was thinking in terms of reaching maximum possible clarity, not just which part would first become clearer than it had been. I may still be wrong on the prior answer, but I think I'm in tune with your question now.

these are no simple questions really...in this case your pond is not a stagnant BOW, nor do you have simple flow through like i do (creek entering one end and departing the other).....you have upwelling groundwater (convection currents) which undoubtedly affect both formation of a thermocline and clarification.

OK, you guys win!!!!

I'll tell you what I was really getting at, and to be sure it isn't specific to the quarry.

In Nebraska, a runoff event will bring silt into more stagnant systems (like earthen ponds), and as the silt settles, the single celled algae are the first to be able to ramp up photosynthesis because the sunlight penetrates sequentially deeper and deeper. For example; It rains three inches and the water becomes completely turbid. Virtually no sunlight penetration for 48 hours. Then the following 48 hours you have sunlight penetration of 6-18 inches. Then the 48 hours after that you have sunlight penetration of 18-24 inches, etc. etc. This sequential increase in sunlight penetration benefits organisms that can utilize the upper tier of the water column.

Therefore, in places like Nebraska where clay particles like to stay in suspension for extended periods of time, you have a marked increase in the ratio of non-rooted (single celled algae) to rooted (sago) plants.

So generally speaking, rainy springs tend to yield ponds with more filamentous and single celled algae during the summer and early fall, while dry springs tend to yield ponds with more submergent vegetation.

Make sense?

This equation however has little or no validity in watershed with heavy particulate runoff like sand, because it settles so quickly that there is not an extended advantage to plants that utilize the upper water column.

Makes perfect sense, and I see where things all tie together. Nice. I think you deserve all the points on this one for putting up with our rampant speculation!!!

In its simplest form I agree with this by Bruce :

"In Nebraska, a runoff event will bring silt into more stagnant systems (like earthen ponds), and as the silt settles, the single celled algae are the first to be able to ramp up photosynthesis because the sunlight penetrates sequentially deeper and deeper."

Gravity at work absent some other energy source. An object in motion (toward the center of the earth by gravity) will continue in motion until confronted by a greater force. Thus the top settles out first absent some other factor. BTW clear water deep makes no difference if the sago is cut off from the sun (visible spectrum) by turbid water in the shallowest depth.

bingo!

now who's the bean counter?

another factor w/ clay size particles is ionic attraction. silt and sand settle, but gravity may have little to no affect on the clay depending on the water chemistry.

that is cool to think about....way to condense this. i seen it wit me own two eyes in my pond.

DIED said "another factor w/ clay size particles is ionic attraction. silt and sand settle, but gravity may have little to no affect on the clay depending on the water chemistry. "

True but ionic attraction is a countering force as noted above and is thus accounted for in my comment. Plus % wise only a small amount of ponds (I would guess less than 15%)have long term clay turbidity. Bruce's sure doesn’t sound like one of them with all that limestone.

DIED, I'm still gonna have to go with JHAP as our resident bean counter! I mean, he did make a big admission and all with that whole B&M employment comment and who am I to ignore it?

Very interesting point about the clay being charged. In reading the various threads here about people not being able to get clay to settle in their ponds, I've always kind of wondered why. Is it strictly/largely related to the charge of clay at the atomic level? Do other soils not have a charge of some sort, too, or is it just that clay is somewhat unique in how it is charged such that it reacts with the water?

Am I correct in saying that ionically charged or "colloidal clay" are negatively charge clay particles that repel each other to a point that the repulsion exceeds the gravitation effects for extended periods of time?

i was recalling that colloidal clay would be positively charged and remain in suspension by attraction to ionic compounds in the water (rather than by repulsion) but my water chemistry days were a LONG time ago, so take it w/ a grain of NaCL

agreed

i need a nap now.

Here's a thought. Given the example above, after 48 hrs, does the 18-30 inch water colum have the same turbidity as the 6-18 water column? You're saying that the sunlight penetrates 6"-18". How do you know it wouldn't penetrate the same distance if the water between 18-30 inches were to be brought closer to the surface and had the same amount of sunlight available to it?

Esshup,

I will give you a real numbers tomorrow. I have sampling to do and can get water samples from different depths and test the turbidity of each.

Now THAT will be interesting!! Thanks Chris.

I seem to remember that the positively and negatively charged particles repel and bounce off each other to thus stay suspended. I think one is called an ion and the other a cacon.

But, that study is going back a ways and I may have things backwards. Or dead wrong.

That makes more sense than my initial answer.

Super-Cool!!! Youngblood will get some bonus points!!

so i had this dream last night, i was trapped/hiding in some woods somewhere, it was dark, and all around me was the chanting "a circle of light, a circle of light, a circle of light".....there was wizards, and little gremlin like dudes....

when i woke up i asked myself, what does it mean?

then i remembered this post:



please give eric all the points so i can get a good night sleep.

I have dreams like that after I eat tocos.

This thread was viewed 150 times since I went to bed last night. If my guess is correct, 125 of those were DIED while he was dreaming.

I had a dream we were all trying to climb out of a rock quarry with loose limestone on steep sides. No one could get out and the water was rising fast. So I am giving all my points plus any DIED tried to give me back to DIED so we can complete the circle of light. --

Sleep surfing!

Finally, I have been promoted to a Wizard!!!



















Wait a minute, I was a wizard and not a "little gremlin like dude" wasn't I?

DIED?

DIED?

Wizards never wonder. Does that answer your question?

-- -- -- ROFLOL

I took the sample in a cove that is on Lake Dardanelle. This lake is part of the Arkansas River. The cove is usually clearer then the channel but today there wasn't much difference. The secchi depth was 40 cm.

Turbidity values are given as NTU's with zero being the lowest value. The surface water had a value of 22.5 NTU's. The water at 2 meters had a value of 22.7 NTU's. The depth was 4 meters so I dropped the sample collector all the way to the bottom and then pulled it up a foot. I got a value of 27.1 NTU's. Some sediment may have been stirred up but I am pretty sure that is an accurate reading.

Interesting. I'm assuming that the lower the number, the clearer the water is. Are the NTU values linear? i.e. if 22.5 NTU's = 40 cm, 22.7 NTU's = how many CM? Thanks for taking the time.

Yes, the clearer the water the lower the value. I believe the values are exponential. I made a graph a couple years ago comparing secchi depth and turbidity. If I can find it I will post it.

Here are some other values from today.

Secchi- 90, Turbidity 11.6
Secchi- 35, turbidity 36.7

It's now the two minute warning.

I'm computing scores, and we'll have two more good questions.

By the way, I was watching ESPN tonight and they posted the following score...

Secchi 90, Turbidity 11.6

Evidently Turbidity's home field advantage ain't what it used to be. I don't know if you guys knew this, but I was offered a partial scholarship to Secchi for curling.

_________________________

But you obviously missed the fact that this was a double header and Turbidity squeaked out the win in game 2!

Very impressive about the curling bit - I know you've been parked in front of the Olympics just thinking about what could have been!

I thought your scholarship was in bowling? Or was it for miming?

---- ----- And all that time I thought it was for Nebraska Volleyball !

That might have been the culmination of a dream. Me, playing outside hitter for the Husker volleyball team. I would have even gotten my own locker room!

One thinks you would have been happy to share.

Wow, I had heard that rumor at the last Pond Boss conference but I just assumed it was a nasty rumor designed to impeach your character.

I had also heard that Sunil was awarded a scholarship for 12 ounce curling and this I found very believable.

The scholarship was for grad school, JHAP.

I developed and honed my curling technique in undergrad. Maybe that's why I never went on to do post-graduate work.

DIED = 30 1/4
Todd3138 = 23 1/2
ewest = 19 1/2
CJBS = 15
essup = 14
DD1 = 11
Omaha = 9
Youngblood = 8
Greg Grimes = 7
Burgermeister = 5
Dwight = 2.1
blair5002 = 2
JHAP = 1 11/16
Yolkie = 1 9/16
Sunil = 1 7/16

Question #8 is just a little one pointer during the two-minute warning.

I tested the pH of the water. Was it above, or below 7?

Above

Right On, I'm in third place! (from the bottom)



Insufficient information. In order to narrow down my thought process, allow me to make some intuitive inquiries. Did the air smell of pine? Was it a cloudy or sunny day? Were the winds out of the southwest? Did the water taste of elderberries? What was the reading on the pH meter? Why is the H in pH capitalized? Is your pH meter an American meter or a metric meter? (I know your proclivity for all things metric). What color is your meter, white, black, pink?

If the quarry is an old limestone quarry, I would say above... Lots of buffering power there. Plus, most soils in Nebraska are alkaline. That why honey locust does so well there and the ponds tend to be naturally fertile. Bruce also mentioned their being lots of crayfish with the CC being packed full of them at times. Crayfish tend not to do well in acidic waters.

Above

I'm going with above due to it being a limestone pit.

Upon careful review of your responses my answer is


Thursday.

Nothing? Not even a twitter?

Tough sub.

Coincidence? I think not!!
Alright, Condello, fess up: What have you got against Peroni drinkers?

"Bruce, I AM YOUR FATHER. Well, actually, no, I can't back that up."

Don't get me started - my kids aren't old enough to watch the Austin Powers flicks, but they pretty much know every line because I'm one of those freaks who believes that EVERY conversation in life can be handled with Austin Powers references!

"Alright, Condello, fess up: What have you got against Peroni drinkers?"

Yeah!

Actually I did quite literally laugh out loud to your responses.

After posting here this morning, I had a tax appointment. You know tax clients find it rather un-nerving when their CPA is giggling during the tax interview.

I have another appointment in about a hour. Hopefully I shall be able to exhibit a moderate amount decorum during my second appointment of the day. Or not. We'll see.

When did you check the pH ?

I checked it at various times of the day.

8 a.m.
10 a.m.
4 p.m.
8 p.m.

It never varied by more than .8

There's very little overall mass of vegetation, so there's not much of a respiration/photosynthesis cycle to increase or supress the overall pH of the lake.

My guess, a low of 7.4 and a high of 8.2...

somehow i feel its a trick, but being groundwater fed, and having the groundwater reside in the limestone, i vote the obvious as well.......greater than 7.

i might be able to understand a pH <7 if it is a fast moving aquifer, recharged by highly draining soils, such that the "groundwater" has a low residence time in the limestone, in this case you could have pH's less than 7 in a limestone pit.

Greater than. Abundant vegetation without artificial liming is an indicator. Also the crawdads and the fact that you are getting very little variance during the day.

Have you previously posted the alkilinity?

If that is an average then I would guess the avg is > or = 7.

And the correct answer IZZZ...........

"drum roll, please"




-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-

-


7.5-8.3

DIED = 31 1/4
Todd3138 = 24 1/2
ewest = 20 1/2
CJBS = 16
essup = 15
DD1 = 12
Omaha = 9
Youngblood = 9
Greg Grimes = 7
Burgermeister = 5
Dwight = 2.1
blair5002 = 2
JHAP = 1 15/16
Yolkie = 1 15/16
Sunil = 1 15/16

Some of these questions have been purposely vague, and I commend everybody for not complaining about the fact that I've been pretty subjective about the answers and awarding of points.

But here's a question that you couldn't possibly know the exact answer, but I'm going to give three points for a correct answer, and two points for an honest try, so long as the "reason" for your answer is sound.

I went to the Lincoln Home Builders Home and Garden Show last weekend, and to my surprise I ran into the owner of the mining operation on the east side of the road. He had purchased it from the Quarry owners who had mined the west side. He told me that all mining activity had been ceased indefinitely, and that he believed it would never resume.

I asked him why.

His answer was succinct. It was six words long.

In six words or less, speculate why the mining operation had been terminated, then feel free to add any discussion.

I'll tell you what. This has been the most enjoyable thread I've ever been a part of. It combines all of the things that I love about Mr. Lusk's website.

It's informative.

It stimulates discussion.

It has humor.

It has even allowed for some thread drift.

Most of all however, it just shows how a bunch of intelligent and helpful people can combine to make this place an awesome learning experience.

Too much G.. D... red tape. (Other more political versions came to mind, but I know where that would lead!)

Let me clarify "red tape". That could mean more over head in the form of taxes, workers comp, permits, etc. It could also mean more papework, containment pools/barriers and hoops to jump thru due to environmental reasons.

There are quite possibly an endless list of plausible reasons, but I have a couple shots in the dark theories. The one I'll go with for now is simply dust. Whether because of nearby residents complaining of the dust from the mining or vegetation in the area being effected.

dang, do we get two trys?

i'd like to think about it and get back later, gotta split for a training class this morning.

so heres a split second guess:

"we ran out of good rock"

1. Couldn't
2. Risk
3. Invasion
4. Of
5. Green
6. Sunfish.

Or, alternatively,

1. Got
2. All
3. The
4. Good
5. Profitable
6. Limestone

I have absolutely no idea on this one and have not scrolled down to look at the other answers that appear to be already given from the post count that appeared since I last checked this thread late last night. I'll see how far off I am in a second.

Taking a stab based on the way the pit across the road appears to be mined - looks like it's been dug in a very deliberate manner with certain areas being avoided and others being targeted. I know most quarries do mine in a "master plan" sort of pattern, but this one looks like they could have gone into other areas pretty easily but have not. I'm speculating that the content of limestone isn't as high in those areas as the ones already mined and that the lower content makes continued mining unprofitable. As well, given the obvious development of nice homes around the pit, I'd guess there is some concern about blasting damage liability and jerks like me filing suit for repairs to those nice homes from ongoing blasting operations. Also, they may not have any more mineral rights to allow them to mind beyond the parameters of the pit as it's currently defined.

Come on points! (And I've got to remember to wear my tinfoil hat today to avoid detection by the GSA Death Star for my blasphemous comment about GSF!)

Double Dang!!!

DIED had the same initial hunch I did! If he's right, I have obviously missed my calling in life and should have paid more attention in my geology classes in college! I can't wait to meet you in person one day, DIED, since we obviously have so much in common!

I'd like to lodge a formal complaint about the subjective nature of points awards.

Noted.

That's it?

Noted?

Where's my congressional hearings? Where's my Barbara Walters interview? Where's my 20-20 News Expose? Where's my reading glasses?

If you keep up this nonsense I'll deduct 1/128th of a point.

Just try me. You mess with the bull--you'll get the horns, baby.

Does your coffee taste like ear wax?

or...if you're anywhere near Condello, they're probably in your shirt pocket, crushed into a half dozen pieces

My guess would be one of the above, either too much red tape or not enough rock left to make it worth mining anymore... That or they're afraid a giant sink hole will form and all the surrounding homes will cave in to it... HAHA

And THAT'S probably Bruce's biggest fear!

i didnt have a chance to think it about much today, and the only other thing in my mind is.....


"its the gawl dang economy stupid"

water diversion is expensive, regulatory fees have increased, workers insurance skyrocketing, building and development has slowed to a crawl, product/materials costs havent risen to match increased overhead, cost more to mine than you make.

i cant wait to hear the real answer.

Everybody so far has earned two points, but I'll start the process of revealing the answer.

The quarry ___ __ ______ __________.

By the way, it's the most common answer for any business that discontinues operation.

...and you guys have been all over it. Practically nailed it a couple of times.

The quarry was not making money.

Omaha swishes a three pointer from the perimeter!

His exact words were.

The quarry was no longer profitable.

Apparently the quality of the limestone wasn't as good as some other nearby quarry operation. He said the limestone was "soft". Which is interesting because I always wondered how useful the limestone would be because I could crush most of it with my hands. I wonder what makes some limestone really fragile like that, and sometimes it's really super hard....

Yes! <fist pump>

". . . isn't making any money."

Dang! That Omaha is good! And fast!

Im way to slow for this game. i just read 4 pages guessed 8 pH and "quarry not making money". Oh well back to work guess I need to check this more often.

That's what you get for taking a vacation!

In all honesty, I almost posted the correct answer last night or whenever it was, just seconds after Bruce posted the Question. I actually hung around for Bruce to pop on the forum knowing that for a long time, Wednesday night is JD night for him.

Also, I havent been able to follow all the thread; but that was the obvious 1st choice considering the economic times.

Quite frankly, just so long as I am ahead of JHAP, it's all good.

Don't let it go to your head burgermeister. The only reason that you got ahead of me is that I didn't know any of the answers.

I have lost track of this thread though I did catch a 35 inch Northern Pike this evening.

DIED = 33 1/4
Todd3138 = 27
ewest = 20 1/2
CJBS = 18
essup = 17
DD1 = 12
Omaha = 12
Youngblood = 9
Greg Grimes = 7
Burgermeister = 5
JHAP = 4 15/16
Yolkie = 4 15/16
blair5002 = 2
Sunil = 1 15/16
Dwight = 1.1 (Lost one point for bragging)
Brettski = 1

Final question, with a chance to gain extra credit.

Look at the house in the center of the quarry lake.

To the west, and northwest of the house are two roughly rectangular areas. What are they? (Three points, and four points to first correct answer)

Extra credit: Coming this evening after somebody answers the question correctly.

It looks like they've been there for roughly 5 years. Is that where the topsoil was scraped away for use elsewhere on the property? Or are they future building pads?

At first I thought they might be garden plots, but now I'm pretty sure they're just composting beds for any GSF that happen to be caught in the quarry.

Either enormous gardens or the foundation of equally enormous garages.

the larger one is piled up. so could be 'dust' from the quarry(tons of limesttone). smaller one is a, non IMO, ISO, helo landing pad.

per Brettski, no 'H'.

What did I do to earn my whopping "one point"?

The smaller rectangle is where they staged the lime that was removed from the quarry.

The larger rectangle is where a thriving coconut grove once grew.

In close proximity stood large stainless steel mixing vats. This is where they put the lime in the coconut and drank them both together. They put the lime in the coconut and then they felt better. They put the lime in the coconut and drank them both down.

this is a brutal question. i am struggling to understand the topography, but it appears they are on slope, it appears they are scraped bedrock surfaced, and may be some kind of engineering/drainage control between the house lot and what appears to be a knoll or low ridge to the west/northwest separating the pond from the house property. in summary, they may serve to direct the groundwater table and surface run-off in southwest direction away from the house lot.

i will further speculate that although they are on a slope, they are lower than the ground around them, and probably serve as a sloped drainage basin so to speak.

i have no idea why they are rectangular other than the home owner has an OCD with his landscaping. it appears he put a landscaped/grassed "bridge" across the small drainage essentially breaking the feature into two parts...

Sorry I have been out so I missed parts of the game.

we've missed you, so what's yer guess on those rectangular thingies?

I see nothing in the aerial that would say for certain what they are... Any guess I'd make would be just that.

Either giant sandboxes or places where sod was removed for use elsewhere. Also looks like it could possibly be where some sort of excavation was filled in, though not really well as there still appears to be a pretty good depression around the edges.

I've been traveling home all day from vacation in South Carolina and just finally got settled in at home and see that I'm missing questions! Crap! Now to see what the other answers are!

VERY interesting! For some reason I thought this would be an easy one...

And it's turned out to be anything but!

The neighbor who lives in that house also happens to be co-owner of the building that I put my new dental office.

I'm not sure whether to continue the question, or just give the answer and start a new question.

OK, I'll try a hint.

The owner of the property tells me that he tried to do something in the traditional way, and then found out that because of the soils, he had to try something that was "engineered".

Failed garden plots?

geothermal heating?????

septic field?????????

I'm leaning towards septic. Geo they could have used the pond, I don't know how to "engineer' a garden.

I mixed the wording up thinking they tried "engineered" then went to "traditional" and that is where I come up with geothermal but yes the thing to do is use the pond for geo thermal. Not a highjack just explaining my dixlesic train of thought.

septic is a good guess, but taking bruce's wording literally, he says the owner "had to try something that was "engineered".....sounds like it still doesnt work and was attempted after the house (and septic) was already in.

my final guess is he wanted two small shallow ponds next to his house...koi or forage pond thingies......

if thats not it, i'm stumped.

i'm pooped.

i'm going to bed and will check back in the a.m.

good luck everbody.

I know, but can't tell...gotta be worth 1/4 point

I don't think it could be septic because they wouldn't have dug that big of an area only to find that it wouldn't work - perc tests should have shown the insufficiency way before those two areas got dug out that big, so I have to say no to the septic. This morning my "engineered" garden does sound a bit week, but it's the best I've got right now I was thinking maybe that instead of an earth garden, they ended up "engineering" a greenhouse or something. Pretty weak, but unless some inspiration hits me, I am really stumped. I'm thinking the geo is a good guess, but from what I've read about it, it almost seems that the brown spots aren't big enough for the loops and there's no "trail" leading to them from the house where there might have been the main run from the house to the loop field. Plus the lake makes more sense for geo unless some sort of HOA rule would have prohibited that sort of use.

Send me a PM with the answer, I'll post it and make it look totally off the cuff, then I'll insist on you getting a FULL point! DOH! Did I just type that out loud?! My internal monologue isn't working!

My guess is ball courts.

Somebody got it.

It's currently successful, but I'm sure when the photo was taken it was still in the process of growing.

It was specially designed by somebody I'm now consulting with.

You can't see the original attempt, and the two rectangles are the "engineered" (and successful) solution.

Gardens.

I claim do-over. I'm going with septic leach fields with one leading to the other as the waste has reached a particular level of processing and is safe to move towards the final phase before leaching into the soil.

Never mind my earlier answer about septic not being right since this is the finished product and not the failed effort!

I have to run out for a few hours, so no one take any guesses, okay??!! Bruce, if you want to award me the points, that would be okay in my absence, but no more questions till I get back!

well since forage ponds dont really grow (but the things in them do) i will say he's trying out a small orchard or vineyard.

sorry todd, after 15 pages of following this rag, i gotta keep stabbing at it.

I'm going with the lime in the coconut. Matter fact; keep 'em comin'.

I think I'm with you and JHAP! Let's drink 'em all up!

No biggie, Dave, I understand the freakish compulsion this thread has caused! What a blast! We need a thread like this going on at all times - one ends, a new one starts! Bruce, you up for it??!!

turf farm

Ding, ding, ding.....

i shoulda listened to DWIED......when i confronted her w/ the puzzle last night, first thing out of her mouth....."septic field".....

can she get a 1/4 point?

good goin todd

Yesssssssssssssssssss!

Thanks, Dave! You've just illustrated one more example of why we should always listen to our wives, but never let them know we're listening to them! I say DWIED ought to at least get enough points to put her ahead of JHAP!

DWIED and JWHAP are always one point ahead of DIED and JHAP!

(In fact most of the time they are one step ahead of DIED and JHAP).

And isn't that exactly where a good - albeit frustrating - wife should always be?! I know I live my life always one step behind!

Don't fool yourself! They gotta be at least a hundred steps ahead. And it grows exponentially every year

i did get a sufficient "i told you so" from DWIED.



just out of curiosity, how DOES a leech field grow??

With tinkle bells and poopy smells, and CSBG all in a row!

You guys are going light weight! What Is Up!, No reference to GSF in your rhyme!!!

I get poopy smells, but would rather have a pond full of GSF and have to fix that later...

So, I guess the GSA win's on Poopy smells

A leech field grows much like ambulance chasing attorneys grow their law practice.











They both try to get blood out of every living thing that crosses their path.




Sorry attorneys, the devil made me do it.



Disclaimer:
JHAP has the highest level of respect for most attorneys and in fact works with a number of attorneys in his accounting practice. JHAP is a firm believer that engaging a good attorney is the corner stone of any good business. JHAP realizes that DIED was talking about the "other" kind of leech field but the joke doesn't work anywhere near as well with a septic leech field versus the blood sucking kind of leach. JHAP is not sure why he is speaking in third person but he must admit he finds it amusing.

When JHAP types in the 3rd person, who gets the points?

Mick.

But where a good attorney makes it a true art form is by sucking just enough blood to allow his prey to live, able to give blood again on another day!

Too much hair!

Would you allow this guy to fish your pond

or use him for fish bait.

Bait and structure!

neither, that is not coming anywhere near my pond.

Nice tie though

I'll keep my comments about attorneys to myself...

Aw, c'mon, Travis, we're not all bad!

This is true... Not all, just most! HAHA

I was tempted to tell another lawyer joke, but the last time I did it was moderated.

Oh, there are certainly enough of them out there! My goal is to know all the punchlines so I can play the role of spoiler!

That's the spirit! We've found some common ground, my friend!

Todd the punchline was.... there was one empty seat.

Define "shame" - a bus full of lawyers at the bottom of the ocean and . . .

Now what does any of this have to do with Bruce's Quarry Contest 2010??!! Take this stuff to another thread!!

I think we better change the topic.

Very good idea guys.

I'm going to need to talk to the landowner more, but I guess he's growing cattails in those areas to facilitate evaporation. It's some kind of "special" system. I'll find out more, I promise.

DIED = 34 1/4
Todd3138 = 31
ewest = 21 1/2
CJBS = 18
essup = 18
Omaha = 13
DD1 = 12
Youngblood = 9
Greg Grimes = 7
Burgermeister = 6
blair5002 = 6
JHAP = 5 15/16
Yolkie = 5 15/16
Sunil = 1 15/16
Dwight = 1.1 (Lost one point for bragging)
Brettski = 1

Bruce, are you saying he's growing cattails on top of the leach fields shown in the pictures? That's pretty interesting. Just musing out loud now, but given the discussions on trees that I've read on the forum, what about planting willows around your leach fields? I know there's a desire to keep tree roots away from a septic system to prevent the obvious potential for damage, but I wonder if a moisture soaking tree like that could be a feasible part of a leach field plan at some level or other.

Extra credit.

This is really only to help me out, but here goes.

Please give me some alternative to the traditional septic systems that most acreage owner use. My architect keeps talking about a 4,000 square foot "lateral field" that he doesn't want to deal with.

Use your internet guile to help me figure out if there's some simpler way to dispose of waste, without threat to the quarry's beautiful clear clean water.

How about an aeration system? A bit more expensive and, from what I understand, a greater maintenance requirement, but a much smaller footprint than traditional septic leach fields, and no need for periodic visits from the honey dipper to suck out the sludge that has built up.

Here's the site for a company that makes a small field product that might be of interest - Eljen

Don't be immediately put off by the fact that they use a technology called GSF - it stands for geotextile sand filter in this instance!

Or you just organize a commando team to go out at night and tap into your neighbor's septic system and remove all traces of the activity before morning.

Composting systems or an Anaerobic Digester for the solids and Bio filtration for the liquids. Defiantly would not take up 4000 sf, but...

My friend uses a sand mound high efficiency system. Not sure about all the details, but its foot print is very small.

Hey, Travis, what about that friend of your dad's who is off-the-grid? What does he use, or is that who you're talking about? I'd bet that guy has a functional solution.

I honestly have no idea what sort of septic system he uses? Not something that comes up in every day conversation... HAHA

I think that's what's meant when people say "we were just talkin' s***!"

We had a sand mound system at the past shop, which had a grease trap. Not very big in size, and functioned quite well, but the DEQ had three wells on the property to monitor ground water, which was clean!

i'm toast.

congratulations todd

my only knowledge of septic systems is very general.

i have a nieghbor who had no flat space, he installed an engineered stacked leach field on the steep hillside in front of his house, that was costly but had a very small footprint. because of the small footprint, a stacked system might be better for quarry lake groundwater protection

an alternative to standard systems....i think somebody touched on this already, but there are dozens of companies marketing biofilters, so that the waste water is cleaner by the time it reaches a conventional leach field.

as a side note, i've heard you should really not put grey water through septic systems (particularly from clothes and dish washers), because the detergents inhibit microbial breakdown. have you thought of that yet bruce? you might want to design grey water and sewage disposal separately.

good luck,

maybe died is still hoping to get a custom jig or two

Don't count yourself out yet, Dave! Bruce hasn't said what the extra credit is worth, nor has he accepted my answer!

You make a great point about the gray water and issues with all the anti-bacterial stuff we use - detergents, soaps, etc. - being bad for the essential bacteria in the system. I have done a little reading on septic over the past few months as I'm going to have to go that route if we eventually build at our farm and I'm trying to learn what I can about it. I believe that if you do use anti-bacterial products, you can still add beneficial bacteria to your system to overcome any loss that might occur. Still, if there's an efficient way to separate gray water and raw sewage, you are right on the mark that that would be the way to go.

Also with the grey water comes synthetic fibers. How long does it take for those to decompose?

Have you looked into a mound system?

Types of septic systems

Good point about the fibers - wasn't thinking about those. They probably have a half-life of about 1500 years!

I had actually never heard of a sand mound until this evening's posts in this thread, but I will definitely look it up. Thanks for those links, Scott.

No problem. There's a type of system that my buddy has down in Texas that uses a pump and a sprinkler system to distribute the clean water, but I can't remember what type of system that it's called. It only turns on the pump for the sprinklers when the tank is full, and only at a certain time of day that can be programed into the system.

Wow. Sure sounds like there are a bunch of options. I just have to worry about eventually getting the best one for the proximity to our ponds so we don't get any unwanted side effects. From my reading so far, I don't think it will be an issue, but that concern remains in the back of my mind and will drive a lot of our decision making when the time comes.

i just had to think about it for a little bit,

here is your answer bruce, cheap, easy, and SAFE!

ROFLOL!!!!

I didn't realize you had stopped by my place, Dave!

My favorite part of my buddy's hunting camp... Boy that splash back is cold on the tush!

i didnt even need to search the internet for that, its on my property,

they can also have creature comforts, notice the wood stove pipe on the rear part of roof,

plus they provide habitat, if you look closely, that is a canada goose nesting a little lower down on the roof

I thought you were joking at first!

I guess installing, you know, one of those things that shoot jets of water up, is out of the question

Isn't that something the French do? A bidet?

I think Ted Lea sells fountains

A bidet? What a croc.

We had a bidet in our old house.

Worthless.

A bidet is basically just a short drinking fountain.

This is my last chance to redeem myself.....
GAS

That lends a new meaning to GeoThermal.

Geopooploop

So if the original guy you contacted about the septic told you that you'd need 4,000 square feet, and you only wanted to commit about half of that....AND if budgetary constraints were NOT an issue, what would YOU do?

Plan on using even less ground and have the porta potty guys come and clean it out a couple of times a week? Hey, you said less ground and no budget constraints!

Ironically, that a little like one of the ideas we had. There's some type of actual tank you can buy, and they come and take the sludge, but the homeowners association isn't on board with that sort of thing!

Bruce:

I think these 2 are your best choices, unless there's something else out there that I'm missing. I don't know how much effluent volume you will be dealing with, and that might make a difference in what system you choose. The RSF seems to give more treatment at the expense of more area consumed. If a mound in your yard isn't objectionable, then that's what I'd take a long, hard look at. The downside is the pump - one more thing to go wrong,

Recirculating Sand Filter - A modified intermittent sand filter in which effluent from the filter is recirculated through the septic tank and/or the sand filter before it is discharged to the soil absorption field. The addition of the recirculation loop in the system may enhance removal effectiveness and allow media size to be increased to as much as 1.5 mm in diameter.

Buried or recirculating sand filters can achieve a very high level of treatment of septic tank effluent before discharge to surface water or soil. Dosed recycling between sand filter and septic tank or similar devices can result in significant levels of nitrification/dentrification, equivalent to between 50 and 75 percent of overall nitrogen removal, depending on the recycling ratio. Regular buried or recirculating sand filters may require as much as 1 square foot of filter per gallon of septic tank effluent.

Mound Systems - An alternative to conventional OSDS and are used on sites where insufficient separation distance or permeation conditions exist. Mound systems are typically designed so the effluent from the septic tank is routed to a dosing tank and then pumped to a soil absorption field that is located in elevated sand fill above the natural soil surface. There is evidence suggesting that pressure dosing provides more uniform distribution of effluent throughout the absorption field and may result in better performance. A major limitation to the use of mounds is slope.

Where adequate area is available for subsurface effluent discharge, and permanent or seasonal high ground water is at least 2 feet below the surface, the elevated sand mound may be used in coastal areas. This system can treat septic tank effluent to a level that usually approaches primary drinking water standards for BOD5, suspended solids, and pathogens by the time the effluent plume passes the property line for single-family dwellings. A mound system will not normally produce significant reductions in levels of total nitrogen discharged, but should achieve high levels of nitrification.

Our hunting cabin has a holding tank... No septic field... I believe it is 1200 gallons. We have an alarm that goes off when we reach 75%. The county is supposed to come out and inspect the system once a year and make sure we have an active pumping contract, but I doubt they do...

We have gray water(sinks, showers, etc) filter through gravel and into the ground, but the black water(toilets), are sent to the holding tank. Now granted, we don't live in our hunting cabin full time so we only have to have it pumped out once or twice a year... We have the rule that if it's brown flush it down and if it's yellow let it mellow. That saves some holding tank space. It's costs $295 to have it pumped out... If you lived in a house full time, with a family off 4, that could get quite costly! Interestingly enough, when my dad bought the place 5 years ago, the county inspector said the holding tank was only 1 of 4 in the whole county. He said it was grandfathered in before the Chesapeake Bay Act made them illegal.

I think maybe reading this book
http://permaculture.org.au/2008/09/18/humanure-handbook-free-download/
Gives a good fundament/knowledge to make a decision on the matter
There are lots off diferente aproaches, DIY models on the nett.
I have built, a greywater and blackwater system my self, to get it approved I had to document every step give references to studys (free as well) and finaly deliver test samples of soil or ground water on request.
The ready made (plug and play) systems are expensive do to certification/dokuments/low turn over.
Quite easy to build low tech if you have a plan and the tools.
My best advice is build a gravatie fed one, so you are not deepended on eleectriciety and the instalations/wiering that comes whit that.

This is the system I installed. In my case the ground is sloped enough for the system to be gravity fed, no pump. A slick automatic siphon design allows the dosing tank to discharge without electricity. The leach field measures 12'x96' (1152 sq.ft.) and services a 3 bedroom home, the min. size required by code. (Two of the important factors in governing leach fielkd size are # of bedrooms serviced and soil permeability)

This was a DIY project so the cost ended up being material only.

The local SEO (Sewage Enforcement Officer) required the design to be done by a soils engineer, about 200 bucks.

Check out the websites "Installation Slideshow" for pix.

i'm still thinking some kind of stacked leach field system may be appropriate.

this provides some interesting ideas:

http://www.thenaturalhome.com/drywellinstallation.htm