Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Corrective stocking Renovating pond species YP and WE? Bill Cody ?

I have a scenario, that I hope some will chime in on here.

Forgive me for beginning with a novel here, but I feel it's important to give a history of my BOW, so everyone can get a feel for what I have and what I'm trying to accomplish( though I wonder if I know what I'm trying to accomplish lol)

My pond was originally constructed in 1977, by my dad, he hired the dozers, and paid the bill.It has just right at 3 acres of surface, the greatest depth is 15 feet, and is spring fed. The pond has never lost its level. The pond was used for the first few years as recreational fishing. I was 10 years old at the time, and with my great knowledge of fish and biology at the time I put GSF, and BH in!What a wonderful combination!

Dad would feed the BH with commercial feed, and we had a wonderful bullhead pond, 2 lb. BH were not uncommon, and was fun. The BH are no longer there, though. My dad was a cropduster, and let's just say, the BH accidentally died, as this pond is surrounded by Missouri Ag Land.That was alot of years ago.

In the early 90's dad embarked on commercial catfish raising. He constructed other ponds, stocked, fed, trotlined, and sold
dressed catfish. He had quite a business going and he passed away in 1998.Here's where my story continues.

Flash forward to 2011. This pond has not been managed for 13 years, and rarely fished. I recently repaired dads jonboat, and went fishing. I caught lots and lots of small GSF, and I was quite surprised when I caught several 10" plus bluegills.

I decided to by some 32% floater, and see if I could get any channel cat to feed. Wow....CC are alive and well, and even some very large ones. (at least what I call large) So far caught several 7lb. fish, all the way down to 1 1/2 lb.

Last year, (2010)I noticed the corrugated steel drainage tube had rotted through, and had a small sinkhole on the backside of the dam. I called some friends who run a dozer service, they finally got here last week, and replaced the tube. I raised the water level approximately by 3'.They made the repairs, and within 24 hrs. I got a 5 1/2" rain. With the spring, and rain I am now 1' from going out the tube.So far success!

Now what I THINK i want to do.....
I no longer care about eating catfish.The pond currently has a decent population of CC and lots and lots of small BG and GSF.I have also caught a few Orange Spotted sunfish.June 29 of this year, I added 300 RES. There are no LMB or Crappie to my knowledge.Basically no "predator" fish I guess I would say.

I have been removing the CC, and so far I have removed 43 CC, all ranging from 1 1/2 to 7 lbs. I have put them in a lesser quality BOW, that is 2 1/2 acres surface area, and feeding them, calling that one my "catfish pond".I plan on removing alot of them, but not annihilating them, unless it's best for my goals.

The BOW I am writing about, I plan on stocking with YP and Walleye in October 2011.My water clarity is variable, due to phytoplankton. ranging from 5' to 3'. I have a fair amount of Aquatic veg.getting close to 30% at the height of summer.The veg. decreases pretty well during the cold months. At this point in time the veg. is not a concern to me, as I believe it to be beneficial to my pond ecology. My veg. is a plant that looks like coontail, as many do resemble this from a distance, and I have not analyzed, probably Eurasian milfoil, but not certain. I have pondweed,and chara in the shallows and some FA.Small bullrushes are starting to take off around the edges.

I like the idea of Walleye not reproducing, as I can have a certain amount of control on numbers of larger predator fish.I can eat what I want, and for 2 or 3 hundred dollars, I can put more in. (compare that to a fishing trip to Northern Minn. where I did'nt get a bite!)

So I guess I will cut to the quick,I would like to end up with a good BG,YP, and WE pond. My definition of good, is a balanced pond. I am not concerned with catching record fish. My pond will be used for recreational fishing, and harvest.What size of fish do I want? Decent sized filet's, and not having to filet 300 fish for 4 lbs. of meat?

So Bill Cody, and Bruce Condello,(and anyone else,) will you 2 have compassion on my ignorance, and give me your opinions on what to do, even if it's give up and drain the pond, and grow rice?

Will the YP work on the BG numbers and be effective? I have been, and plan on continuing feeding AM 500 and 600 growing some BG before the new arrivals.I know it's expensive compared to 32% CC feed, but as dad used to say...."Are you preparing for failure or are you preparing for success?"I also have a 1 acre pond dedicated to FHM and GSH solely for the purpose of periodically adding a natural forage to the main BOW.
The plan right now is 600 YP, 4-6" WE 300 6-8" in Oct 2011

Thanks to all for any opinions.

Welcome to Pond Boss James, what a great second post!

Experts?

Thanks for the warm welcome Jeff!
I also hope I do not seem insulting to others by throwing Bill Cody's name out there, I have read several posts on YP, and it appears to me Bill could offer some great input.But I do'nt know everyone here! So forgiveness is asked if needed?

No forgiveness necessary. Bill Cody is the first name that most of us think of when we think of YP.

Lets see what Bill and some of the other experts have to say, but I don't think that the YP and WE will be able to keep up with the rate of BG reproduction. The other part of the equasion is that the YP and WE normally occupy a different part of the pond's water column than BG, so will have to travel further to get a meal. I think that the WE will tend to target more YP than BG for meals.

That's my $0.02 worth!

Heck no, don't fill it in. That pond is part of your Dad's legacy.

What's your thoughts on killing everything and starting fresh with the fish you want?

esshup,
Thanks for yer 2 pennies!A penny saved is a penny earned! That's what I find fascinating about learning new things!The variables. E=MC2! Through work, I ran into a guy the other day, who is an avid fisherman. He told me he was fishing in a large BOW in the Kansas City Mo. area, and fishing for WE. Says on July 4 of this year,temps in the 90's, he caught several WE (25 in 4 hrs.and one was 22"and had the pics to back it up)....he was catching them in 3 feet of water,between 11:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. while all other WE fisherman were in deep water.Totally negates everything I've ever been told about WE. He claimed they were after the small shad, being 1-2 inches long? And then again we know what "fishin" stories are too don't we?

I know little about them, but I suppose there's only one way to find out for sure! I guess maybe that's why CC bore me? Stock them and feed them and you eventually have big CC. Even I can do that!!!

Hey Bluegillerkiller,nice to make your acquaintance!
I had thought about killing everything. I weighed everything out. I want BG, and don't mind the GSF, just tired of all the little ones. I don't mind some CC, just didnt want them hogging all my aquamax.And wanted to decrease their portion of the biomas.As I am led to believe, as in livestock production, that a given area of real estate will only support so many head of Bovine, as far as natural grazing goes.Want more cattle to the acre, then plan on supplementation.i.e. bring in hay, and grain, and protein supplement.I do believe that CC have their place in nature, and my pond.Pasturing sheep with cattle is beneficial, as sheep will eat things cattle won't and vice versa.Not trying to give you an FFA lesson here, but this is where my thought processes come from.I suppose that if the CC were going to be much of an issue, even in a smaller number, I would reconsider and do something different.

So i guess my conclusion was this, I want BG, just not so many little ones, but having good recruitment.

I don't mind a few CC, as they help with dead things laying at the bottom.
I want BG

I want YP

I want WE.

I think some CC are beneficial.

Option 1
kill everything and put BG back in,adding YP and WE and possibly CC for janitorial purposes

Option 2
Remove a given # of CC through angling and trotlining, which will not be a difficult task.
Add YP and WE, and see if YP and WE will drop my BG and GSF yoy by 20-30%
Remembering that HSB is a future option, with removal and additions with HSB, and WE,smaller ones preying more on yoy BG and GSF.

I say this with a smirk....I have been accused of being a blathering idiot before, and hope I'm not doing so again!

James – Welcome to the Boss Forum. Your pond and fishery like many others are complicated with numerous variables. At least currently we do not need to be concerned with presence of LMB. They can always be easily added as an option of last resort before complete renovation of the fishery.
IMO your pond does have larger predators –the catfish - especially those that do not eat pellets. I think even the pellet eating CC at least occasionally prey on measurable numbers of fish especially at night. The larger CC could be eating at least some of the mid-sized BG (3”-5”).

I think your Option 2 is the better of the two listed Options.

IMO WE will survive in your pond at least initially. How well they grow will be the main point of interest, at least for me. Reports indicate that WE numbers and success are significantly reduced when WE are in eutrophic conditions and the fishery is dominated by sunfishes. In your case you have ample numbers of sunfishes of several different species (BG, GSF, RES, OSS, plus maybe natural hybrids). I think the WE will prey on GSF as much or more than BG, due to the more fusiform body shape of the GSF. The question is are WE adaptable enough to efficiently prey on the sunfishes in your pond habitat? With an abundance of smaller sunfishes the pond may need a higher standing crop of WE (numbers). High numbers IMO are in the 80-120/ac range. WE are put and take so if fewer or more are needed, they can fairly easily be added or removed.

Later an additional predator such as HSB or SMB may be needed to more efficiently reduce small sunfish. If higher numbers of WE do not significantly reduce then numbers of sunfishes, I would not hesitate stocking SMB into your pond before stocking LMB. When WE are added and grow to sizes of 12”-15” there should be a shift in the species composition of the percentages of sunfishes in the fishery. Look for one species to become more abundant, some species percentages to stay similar and one species to be significantly fewer. Shifts in percent composition will indicate WE feeding preference. You should do some sampling by trapping or seining before and after adding WE to monitor these percentages of the relative size classes of each species of sunfish.

I think the main concern for WE surviving in your pond is if there is always adequate DO. WE reportedly survive poorly when DO drops below 3 mg/L(ppm) whereas sunfishes and the LMB will tolerate 2.0mg/L for short periods. This occurs most frequently in eutrophic conditions which I think characterizes your 33 yr old pond. If you do not aerate your MO pond and the spring water inflow is relatively weak, the WE may have periodic die offs due to corresponding DO sags especially if the weed growth develops greater density than 30%. I think WE will tolerate higher water temperatures slightly above 90F providing the DO is above 3 mg/L and concentrations 4 to 5 mg/L are much better during the warmest periods. Your general water clarity of 3 to 5 ft is optimum for WE feeding efficiency. Spring water inflow into the pond should provide some cooler water areas and may minimize the degree of DO sags in your pond. Walleye are known to feed much better if water temperatures remain in the 70 to 76F range. Reported WE feedding rate slows noticably when water temps are above 80F.

The WE even the larger ones of 20”-26” IMO will not be eating the larger mid-sized BG (4.7”-6”). You may have to manually thin that size group with trapping or seining if their numbers are dense, body condition is thin and they don’t seem to be growing to the 7”-8” sizes.

On the topic of yellow perch for your pond, I think they will have the opposite habitat challenge of WE for surviving in your pond. The challenge for largest YP will be higher temperatures and not the lower DO concentrations. Younger YP tolerate 82-88F temperatures well. YP tolerate well lower DO than WE. Often the largest oldest YP become increasingly stressed to the point of death when water temperatures move from 84F to 90F. Again, the inflow of spring water into the pond may provide life-saving refuge areas for the oldest YP.

In summary,
1.Your pond currently has predators - the CC. Some predation of sunfishes is occurring on mid-sized sunfish but it may not be noticeable.
2. WE are IMO worth a try in your pond. WE should survive at last initially in your pond (1st 3-5yrs). Plan on them eating 1”-3” sunfish plus any minnows – shiners if available. Stock WE at higher densities of 80-120/ac to initially provide noticeable predation of the smaller sunfishes.
3. Bottom aeration would help WE survival and improve pond habitat esp in the deeper end.
4. YP should survive in your pond. You may want to first see what affect WE have on the sunfishes before adding YP. To diversify the forage base and panfish community you could add YP.
5. Spring water may improve long term survival of WE and YP.
6. You may see a need later to add HSB or SMB to increase predation of the small sunfishes because WE may selectively prey on one or two species.
7. Monitor sizes and species of sunfishes to check for shifts in species composition and predominant sizes of forage.
If you decide to stock WE keep us advised of the progress.

Bill, what size WE should be stocked?

Bill, thank you for your input.

IMO also, the CC are a predator fish. After 13 years w/o management ie. feeding, the CC looked to be extremely healthy. I knew they had to be eating something.

Concerning eutrophication.... the largest amount shows up in what I call the "shallows". I have read on here about adding Tilapia,GC,chemical procedures. As I mentioned earlier, my dad was a cropduster, and I know what he done to kill off veg, but will not say that I will do it for fear of incriminating myself.Derivitives of aluminum and copper scare me more than atrazine though.I also understand that energy cannot be created or destroyed.Killing off of veg. through chemical warfare, or turning it into fish manure merely changes the state in which the nutrients are suspended.And until you get it out, it will be there.

Before dear old dad died, he built siltation ponds,deeper ponds, tall fescue grass buffer strips, and levies to prevent direct runoff from adjacent corn ground. I am led to believe that the majority of the nutrients that are in the BOW, are probably the remnants of nutrients that contaminated prior to more extensive erosion control. I have considered ways to reduce the amount of existing abundant nutrients.

1. dredging

2. I can get an excavator into the shallows, remove large amounts of muck, and truck away.Worth the trouble? I will probably do it anyway, to put silt back up on the hill,where it will have some use.

I can guesstimate that the majority of my vegetation is in the shallows, and 15% of my total can be removed with an excavator.

I assume that you have a bit of chemistry training in your arsenal.I do not,I only have ask and listen! Would using urea, instead of ammonium nitrate, be of much benefit for fertilizing the ag land? My understanding is that urea goes up, amm. nitrate goes down, thus reducing the possibility or amount of nitrogen entering the BOW. My brothers and I still practice deep tillage, so urea incorporation is as easy as ammonium nitrate incorporation. Or is most aquatic veg from phosporous and potash? Would a water analysis tell me, or should I get a sample from the muck, or soil beneath it?

I will also add that I am waiting to see what the 3' addition in depth will do for aquatic veg. I'm hoping that the deeper water, and increased distance between the soil and sunlight penetration will help to reduce aquat. growth. But I still remember E=MC2!

Bill it has been an honor to receive your acknowledgement!

James thanks for the compliment.
Eutrophication rate is pretty much determined / controlled by phosphorus input, not so much by nitrates, although both contribute. Be concerned more about phosphorus inputs and its recycling. IMO phytoplankton communities and their density signify eutrophication more than the submerged rooted weeds. Submerged rooted weeds compete with plankton blooms and tend to minimize them. Submerged weeds grow better in shallower water esp if it is clear. Silt removal and deepening the shallows are beneficial. Pond problems almost always occur in shallow water. Bottom aeration helps minimize eutrophication by reducing internal nutrient recycling. Sometimes aeration is not possible, feasable, or economical.

Weeds can be managed various ways to not let them develop a total community greater than 20%-30% using manual, chemical and grass carp or combinations there of.

Depending on the vegetation introducing different less invasive beneficial plant species provides competition to existing probmematic weeds, improves habitat diversity and improves overall habitat.

One thing I did not mention above about the CC is that if CC have not been recently supplimentally stocked, they are probably reproducing since you are catching some smaller individuals (1.5lb).

esshup asks ""what size WE should be stocked"". James mentions that he plans to stock 6"-8"ers. Without bass this stocker is very adequate for his initial and subsequent WE stockings. YOY WE of 6"-8" in the presence of 20-30% weed cover should have high survival rates with just pellet eating CC present as predators. Later when the pond has adult WE then there will be some losses of YOY stocked at 6"-8" WE to predation, but I don't think losses in the presence of weed cover will be higher than 10% maybe 20% depending on how many adult WE are present,their sizes and how much available other forage types are present.