Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Results of Electo-shock Survey

In another forum Esshup asked about the results of an electro-shock survey I had done last September on our 6 acre pond. This forum is more relevant than the one in which the question arose. I much appreciate his interest, and that of anyone else who reads this, or may wish to comment on it.

I was prompted to do the electo-shock survey because I had made two mistakes about 25 years ago. First, I introduced way too many (180) grass carp. Over the years, the GC ate all the weeds and the nutrients now go into phytoplankton, making the water murky and green. The second was that I dumped in 22 white crappie from the local reservoir up the street. Lately, I had become aware that the LMB were undersized. Whereas I used to catch a 5-6 lb. bass almost every week, these days I am lucky to catch one over 14", and usually it's underweight. The BG also seem to lack the heft and numbers they once had.

So, the collection resulted in 79 LMB ranging from 3.4" to 14", with an average size of 7.9" and average weight of 5.7 oz. They were returned to the water.

78 BG were collected ranging from 1" to 9", with an average size of 6.1" and average weight of 3.2 oz. They were returned to the water.

53 white crappie were collected from 7.8" to 10", with an average size of 9.1" and average weight of 6.1 oz. All of the WC were tossed into the woods.

5 YP were collected from 9.7" to 11.7", with an average size of 10.7" and average weight of 7.2 oz. They were returned to the water.

I have a small population of large CC but none were collected. The same is true for grass carp. I hold my introduction of GC (and subsequent lack of weeds) and my introduction of WC responsible for all of my pond problems.

The report from Jones Fish Hatchery is 7 pages so to be as succinct as possible here, let me reference only the most important points. It said, "...results indicate stunted population dynamics occurring in the largemouth bass, and a concern that the same scenario may be reached in the bluegill populations."

The report notes that to date this year (to September, 2011), I removed a total of 850 WC, and that removal must be continued. It also states that the stunted and underweight LMB are "due primarily to a strained available forage base."

Most of the report can be summed up with this quote, "increasing the size of the largemouth bass will be accomplished through reducing competition (heavy harvest of the white crappie, medium size largemouth bass and channel catfish of 20”+ in size) and supplementing the available forage base by implementing a forage fish stocking program. This in combination with harvesting medium size bluegills will help reduce the reproduction and recruitment rates while allowing the remaining bluegills to achieve larger sizes due to increased forage."

The Jones Hatchery stocking recommendations are as follows:

Fathead minnows, 150 pounds
Golden shiners, 175 pounds,
Yellow perch, 200, 6 to 8"
Total cost, $3,476.25 plus tax (Ouch!)

I'm sure all of these measures will help. But I'm a bit disappointed in the emphasis on buying forage fish. I have yet to order the fish. I've been thinking that restoring weeds to the pond is one of the main issues to address, and the report barely mentions that. In furtherance of that my neighbor and I constructed a fence spanning a small portion of the pond where weeds can get a foothold without interference from the GC. Below is a photo.

Thanks again for any and all interest and feedback!

Thanks for sharing the info... I think your reluctance to purchase forage fish is well founded. FHM and GSH are in my opinion not going to help the problem. They will be a quick snack, particularly the FHM...

I would do the other advice, remove every single WC and really focus on doing that. To me, they are truly your biggest issue. I would also work on removing large numbers of bass. All sizes, not just middle sized ones. As you start this process I would measure WR of all fish caught to include the crappies. In all likelihood, you will never completely remove all your WC, but you maybe be able to knock their numbers back enough to reach your goals. This is going to take a lot of work... So much work, I would strongly look into a complete pond renovation via draining and or retenone applications. The overgrown CC are also an issue, but not nearly so much an issue as the WC and LMB. Keep as many of them as you can as well.

The FHM and GSH recommendation is simply a money making ploy from Jones in my opinion. Now as you begin to knock the WC and LMB numbers back, you can consider stocking BG in the 5"+ range. I would also look into a feeding program for your BG as well. However, from the sounds of it, you do have a reasonable number of adult BG, who should be producing enough young to feed your bass, if you knock the numbers of LMB and WC back. So additional BG stocking may not be needed. This is particularly the case if you are leaning more towards a balanced fishery and not one where larger LMB are desired and when I say larger I mean 6+ pound LMB.

The size structure of your YP seems to be pretty good, particularly for fish relying on natural food sources which are not pellet trained.

does make sence to me to add some level of GS and FHM as a food source to a pond like that. seems you would want to do the predator fish removal portion first so the fish that are being removed will not be eating the food source fish you just bought. also it like Seems getting some vegitation cover would help the GS and FHM last a little longer.

What are your goals (i.e. big bass, big bluegill, balanced fishery, etc.)?

Thanks everyone! When I first bought the lake property 25 years ago it had plenty of weeds. A bit too many perhaps. But, the water was usually clearer than it is today, so it was attractive. The fish were both numerous as well as heavy, although back then I didn't know about relative weight. My goal is to restore it to those conditions, that is, a BALANCED population of LMB and BG, with YP as a nice bonus. I think the weeds are the key. Not one weed can get established if it is in water more than a few inches because of the GC. I'm hoping there are only a few, or perhaps zero, GC left by ice-out. The youngest of them will be 23 years old this spring! A few turned up dead last year, and a friend shot and killed one, much to my delight.

An occasional 5 to 6 pound LMB would be perfect! The WC have not always been so dominant. Their numbers seem to fluctuate greatly depending on the year class. In years when their numbers were low, I could expect to catch just a few, but they would often be 12-15" and weigh over 3 lbs. The past two years there have been too many. I wish I had never stocked them. Neither the LMB nor the BG seem to be in as great numbers as they used to be, and the LMB are definitely under weight.

I've contemplated draining the pond and / or applying rotenone, then starting over. But, I shudder to think of it. I won't have a pond to fish in this season and it will be a few years before I have a fishery again. I'm already 66. Who knows how many summers of fishing are left. Last Memorial Day the grand daughters had such a blast catching BG (all of them near 9"!). I bought them both fishing rods and they're still talking about the fish they caught. I just can't contemplate wiping everything out to start over.

I would be much happier to comply with CJBS's alternative plan which is to remove every LMB caught while angling. Up until now, I've only kept SOME LMB if they were under 11.5". It seems drastic to keep all of them. I fear taking out too many. But I'll just have to keep in mind that you guys here are the experts. There's no way I can totally fish the pond out of LMB, is there? Thanks to all!

It is much easier to take out too many and always add a few but I don't think you will have this problem. My guess is the spawn of the bass will produce more than you can catch in a year.

Good point, Ludwig!

Thanks for putting it here, it will get more visibility. If you don't have a good digital scale I'd look at purchasing one. Greg Grimes http://lakework.com/site/ has a good kit for doing pond work (taking visibility readings, WR data collection, etc.).

I'd take out every LMB that you catch, at least this year. In a BOW that size, there's no way that you can fish them out. Only if you catch one that is above 100 WR would I put it back in. I'd leave all the BG in there except what you and the kids take out to eat. As you are doing now, take out every WC that you catch, and any CC.

I'd do that before stocking any forage (FHM or GSH). There are just too many mouths to feed in there. The FHM *might* last a month, but the majority of them would go to feeding the WC, which you want out anyway. With that many LMB in there, adding GSH would be like using a squirt gun to put out a house fire. 10# of GSH would only put 1# on ONE LMB. You'd go broke trying to feed all those LMB.

I'd strongly suggest getting a good feeder, such as a TH, and feeding Aquamax 500 or a similar fish based high protein food that was in the 3/16" pellet size. That will get the BG larger and in better body condition, which will equate to more spawns. On the plus side to feeding, I'll bet any GC and CC that are left in the pond will also be eating the pellets, and that will make them easier to remove via angling or by bowfishing.

I think at this time, take some of the $$ that would be spent on stocking more fish and buy a good feeder and food. I think you'll see quicker results by doing that, combined with an agressive harvest plan. Too bad that the fish (LMB) weren't removed when the electro survey was done.

Once you start getting the LMB larger, they can prey on larger fish, and will also help with the WC problem.

If you can, while waiting for the submerged weeds to come back, add PVC structure to the pond to help provide hiding places for YOY BG.

One last thing. Keep an eye on those cattails. They can get outta hand quickly. It's easier to remove/kill a few rather than wait.

Esshup, I'm glad you agree with CJBS. it's reassuring. Any bass I catch will be converted into fillets, especially for fish tacos.

I already weigh my catch on a fairly accurate digital kitchen scale but I think Greg Grimes' site offers a better one. His have a nice indented, built-in dish in which to lay the fish. Is "WR data" the same as relative weight?

Since you think the money is better spent with a feeder rather than forage stocking, I'll get the feeder. I have to agree it makes more sense. I think the biologist doing the survey has a natural bias (or more frankly, a conflict of interest) in suggesting that I buy his company's forage fish.

Coincidentally, my neighbor and I have been thinking of ideas for PVC structure for our new pond. So, if he can help me with building a few more pieces, we can add them to this pond. Last year we planted four large water lilies (common name "Attraction). It was amazing how many young BG hid among the stems and leaves. Those plants are safely behind the fence.

I don't think the cattails are too much of a problem. Over the years they have actually diminished because of the shading from the growth of shoreline trees. What may be a concern though is the leaf debris from so many trees surrounding the pond.

I'm anxious to mount that feeder now! I think it'll work. The little BG that prowl the shoreline love when I throw them tiny little dough balls.

Thanks again for so much help!

Here are the key components of a healthy lake.
Habitat, first. As goes the habitat, so goes what lives in it. Not only do we want habitat for the target fish such as bass, we also want habitat for what those fish eat…bluegill sunfish, especially, and in your case, yellow perch, too. Basically, habitat is what a fish needs to be able to feed, hide, loaf, ambush and spawn. Your lake has evolved to where it is today because it has the habitat to support what it has.
I suspect your lake has evolved to what it will be, based on its habitat. However, management of the dynamics of your fish population can certainly be a major issue. That may be part of the reason for Jones’ recommendations.
As you zero in on your issues, don’t forget to focus on food chain. The food chain supports the system by supplying enough baby fish to build into plentiful supplies to feed proper numbers of game fish. Once you are confident that your habitat is conducive to achieving your results, focus on the food chain as you manage numbers of game fish.
Third most important is genetics. In order to grow giant fish, you need good genetics, whether it be bass, bluegill or crappie…or any fish for that matter.
Lastly, harvest is a key component to a well-managed fishery. Look at a lake as a garden. You plant it, feed it, weed it and harvest it. Same with a pond or lake. At some point, a lake produces a bounty of fish. Part of your job will be to harvest it properly.
Your lake has developed an interesting fishery. It’s taken quite a few years to happen. In its current state, the lake has an overcrowded bass population with not nearly enough food to help bass to grow. Bass are predator fish. They eat other fish…that’s how they make a living. White crappies are also predator fish, but they have a much smaller mouth than bass. That means they must eat smaller meals than the bass. Bluegill sunfish have tiny mouths and feed mostly on insects and tiny fish. Your lake is a bit too small to support a large population of white crappie
Here are a few more facts to set the stage for some conclusions. Bluegill are the backbone of the food chain for largemouth bass. Bluegills spawn once, maybe twice in northern Ohio. You depend on bluegill reproduction and survival of young bluegill to feed your bass. Yellow perch are also a potential forage fish for your bass, even though they are also a predator.
Crappie are less predictable than the other species. They spawn sporadically, depending on weather and the condition of the lake. When they do spawn, they spawn early each year, just after the yellow perch. Crappie and yellow perch babies are hatched and beginning to grow when most of the other fish are just beginning to nest. That means small crappie and yellow perch tend to eat other babies, as they come off the nest.
Largemouth bass are the bullies of the waterway, chasing, eating and dominating as much as they can, simply because they have a larger mouth than the rest of the fish population.
When bass become overcrowded, they overeat the food chain. Every living thing becomes food for bass…as long as something is swimming and fits into its mouth, a bass eats it.
The most interesting thing to me is how long it’s taken for this fishery to become what it is. It doesn’t happen fast. It takes several years of bass overcrowding for the entire food chain to disappear as this one has.
Let me take you through a “typical” year of a fishery as this one. Spring-time…ice-off, yellow perch spawn. Then, shortly after, crappie spawn (maybe) late March, early April. As soon as the babies hatch, they leave the nest and some are gobbled down by other crappie and bluegill. Then, in April or May, in your neck of the woods, bass spawn. As soon as the baby bass hatch and leave the nest, the swarm of fry are attacked and eaten, by bass, bluegill, yellow perch, and crappie. Gone. Adios…no more babies. Occasionally, some of the babies find enough hiding places to be able to find safe harbor from all those predators…at least temporarily. In your lake, those shallow areas near the cattails are the classic zones where baby fish will hide. Those young of the year fish are eaten later. A few of them even survive long enough to grow to 3-5 inches…not many make it, but some do. Now, it’s late May and the moon is full. Bass spawn one last time to finish their year. The cycle happens again, babies off the nest, predators actively seeking and eating them. July rolls around, bluegills may spawn again and the lake likely has the biggest supply of young fish it will have all year. Spawning slows and now summer is full on and all the fish are trying to grow and thrive. But, remember, bass are overcrowded, eating all they can. Crappie have a small mouth, and tend to eat smaller foods…which prevent those baitfish to grow large enough to be significant as a bass food. Summer temperatures begin to drop in September, triggering the last spawns of the year for bluegill, maybe. Fall temperatures drop into the “perfect” zone for bass, crappie and bluegill growth.
Nature’s way is for spring and early summer to be the time to grow the food chain to support the game fish. In your lake, the food chain is eaten too quickly to become significant enough to support your target species, largemouth bass. Here’s part of the problem. It takes ten pounds of baitfish for a bass to gain one pound. When bluegill, crappie and bass are first hatched, about 12,000 of those tiny fry weigh one pound. If a bluegill can live 45 days, it grows to 30 per pound. In your lake, baby fish don’t live very long. That’s the biggest problem for lakes overcrowded with predator fish. The food chain disappears way too soon after hatching.
So, what do you do about it?
Your lake definitely has some habitat issues. Small fish love to hide in peripheral vegetation in shallow water…that’s probably why you are interested in trying to promote aquatic plants that have been gone a long time.
A feeding program would make a measurable difference for this lake.
Here’s what I think would work best for your situation. Two directional, battery-powered feeders will feed the population of bluegills. You’ll want to feed Purina’s AquaMax 500 or 600 feed. That will do two things. First, it will grow your bluegills larger. Second, it will improve their ability to reproduce. Good nutrition grows more eggs. Third, when the baby bluegills are hatched, a feeding program helps ensure they have enough food, too. More food directly into the fish grows more fish. In essence, increase the standing crop of fish, especially baitfish, which helps produce more food for largemouth bass. Lastly, feeding congregates bluegill, which gives novice anglers a better chance to catch some of them. Feeders range in price, but the best feeders are made by Sweeney and Texas Hunter. For their top directional feeders, the price ranges from $500-650.
Here’s the bottom line as I see it. The recommendation to buy forage fish is a temporary solution to a long term issue. Harvest bass, but get rid of as many crappie as you can. Crappie are a big issue for your lake. Get rid of them. Odds are high that some of your bass are old and growth potential is limited. Your grass carp are way past their normal lifespan, so you don’t have many of them left.
Do these things and you’ll grow another batch of giant bass. It may take a few years, but you can grow some more bass into those sizes you’ve been proud of before.

Do you have adequate structure for the yp to hang their eggs?

Sinking some Tree branches and used christams trees works well.

Also BG bedding areas?

Bob Lusk, the editor of my favorite magazine! Thank you for your detailed examination of my lake's issues. I'm most honored.

So, I'll concentrate on habitat, food chain, genetics and harvest. There isn't much I can do about genetics, but years ago 6 pound bass weren't that uncommon. Nor were bluegill which at times looked as big as catchers' mitts. The BG are sometimes still pretty large, though not as plentiful. I would think the genetics are still fine.

We're working on the habitat. I expect weeds to thrive in the small area behind the fence we put up last fall. I fenced off a much smaller corner of a bay the previous year and the pond weeds went wild there. Nevertheless, I anxiously await the extinction of the grass carp.

As for the food chain, I can do the feeders. I will have trouble buying all those forage fish recommended by Jones Hatchery though. Imagine telling your wife that you're buying two fish feeders for $1,400 and writing a check for $3,500 for forage fish for your weekend property.

As to harvest, well, I've been doing the best I can removing the crappie (more than 850 of them last season). Many weeks I fish two straight days for them. In the morning you can count two dozen vultures in the dead trees overhead of where I dumped the crappie the previous evening. I obviously need to harvest bass too, so I'll have to divide my efforts somewhat.

I still have a lot to study and digest from your post. You gave me a lot here and I truly appreciate your time and interest. Thanks!

Blair, I have a large area of tree stumps, fallen trees, and brush along the steepest bank of the pond. I think it provides a good area for perch to attach their eggs. It's also the area where most fish of all species were raised up while electro-shocking last fall. Over 25 years the quantity and size of the yellow perch haven't changed. I catch a couple of them each month. I wish I could harvest more of them because they're so tasty!

Wow! Your natural lake looks like paradise.

Sandman - you just got a ton of advice from the archangel of pond management for free. I guess we all did. I love seeing Bob bust one off like this when he's got the time...I'm saving this in my personal archives. Thanks Bob.

Teehjaeh, I agree! He covered it all in this post. It's like reading an article in PB about my own pond! I'm really grateful.

Man, you got it all right there Sandman!

Needless to say, Bob did a fantastic job. One to be saved for sure.

If you want to diversify the genetics in the pond in a few years, you can, and with the feeders, I'd suggest putting in feed trained fish. Laggis in Mi. has feed trained LMB. Jones mar or may not have them.

Hey guys, the Pond Boss website is full of sage advice from Bob and other pond management gurus - and all the articles are free. See the yellow link on the forum upper left side. I edited nearly every article to include key words on Google search to improve PB ranking - so I know them intimately and they are pure gold.

Great job, Teehjaeh! I appreciate your efforts. I have key words set on Google News such as "largemouth bass," and "bluegill" so that I can be notified by email. Pond Boss forum posts do indeed pop up in my email. I just wish we used fewer abbreviations here so we could perform better searches. It's difficult to come up with any search results when all a post contains are abbreviations like YP, CC, RES and HSB. I'm guilty of it too.

And, as to what Bob Lusk posted here, would you or Esshup recommend that I buy the forage fish or not? If necessary to restore the lake to a good fishery, I could spend the money. I just don't want to waste it. Bob's post left the question somewhat unanswered.

Thanks to all!

Did somebody say google?

-mike

Google is how I came across the site.

This year at least I wouldn't spend the $ on forage fish. Not until you get the predatory fish (LMB and Crappie) numbers under control. No sense feeding fish expensive (i.e.) live food when they'll be taken out anyway.

I have very little experience, and honestly you should listen to everybody else if they disagree with me, but here's my take:
no forage fish. you have plenty of forage from the various spawns. what your issue is is too many predators depending on that hatch for lunch. Remove the mouths, and your overcrowded bass issues become a more balanced lake issue. Take out the crappie too. The pond that caused me to join up with this forum is slightly larger than yours, and everyone here tells me over an over again that it is too small for crappie.


-mike

Hey Skinny, happy second anniversary since joining the forum!

Forage is a waste of $ IMO and it seems Bob is gravitating that way, too. The only forage item I would consider would be adult GSH - 8-10" - even those will be hammered by LMB unless you have lots of shallow structure/habitat. Invest that money in TH feeders instead of FHM and GSH.

You may need to reset this pond - must remove your GC who are making water turbid and deunuding pond of vegetation. You cannot establish a forage base without some shallow structure and that's best provided by vegetation. If you really want to commit to making this pond better I agree you need to either electroshock and manually remove GC and Crappie and LMB in slot size or rotenone. Or, as Bob says they may be at the end of their lifespan, but I don't know lifespan of GC. Sounds like you have far too many GC to manually remove with bow or shotgun and water might be too turbid to effectively sight hunt them anyhow.

If it were my pond before I invested money in stocking fish I would decide how to remove the GC if there are really dozens in there still.