Pond Boss Forums MANAGING AN EXISTING POND Evaluating and adjusting fish populations Small sunfish (lepomis) ID

A revisit of the iding small lepomis (BG , RES etc). Bruce compare this small RES of George's with the one (DonJovi's) we were addressing in this thread :

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=003546;p=1.

George - RES



DonJovi 2 pics - question BG or RES - consenous BG






ewest BG




2 juv. BG (regular) Positive ID by Wisc Fish.






FishBase RES







With Bill's comment.
"
Bill Cody
Moderator
Member # 24

Member Rated:
posted November 18, 2006 02:25 PMNovember 18, 2006 02:25 PM
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The smaller a fish is, the harder it usually gets to superficially identify it and then one has to start using morophological features that do not vary. Looking at the gill rakers will settle this disagreement of, if it is a BG or RES. At least that is what I would do when trying to put a positive ID on small BG or RES. BG rakers will be "long and thin/slender" whereas RES rakers will be shorter and thicker/stubby".

Since DonJ's fish had a damaged opercule flap it is very difficult if not impossible to put a 100%positive ID on the fish from just a photo. DonJ's fish superficially looks like a BG but George Bush, in a photo, could look like a liberal democrat."


Lets add any parts of other threads / info here and archive it. I will transfer the thread after we are through.


Any thoughts ?

awesome start ewest. based on my projected (near future) sampling of this years spawns (GSF, RES, and BG) i hope to be able to contribute more to this thread. for now i'll post the couple immature lepomis pics i have.

BG


BG


GSF

Small BG and RES are hard to tell apart when seen separately, but when caught in a trap from the same pond and are side by side, much easier to distinguish.

Mr. H's big pond has good numbers of WM, CNBG and RES as well as occasional Crappie.

I trapped these fingerlings and wonder if anyone can ID them.

For my money GW's #1 is BG. #2 has a much larger mouth, and I would say GSF.

My feelings on BG vs. RES ia that solid vertical side stripes mean BG, while vertical rows of dots are RES. Ewest's fishbase pic above seems to confirm that.

From my pond (these little guys were about 2" to 2 1/2" long):
Small BG (definite, watched him grow up in an aquarium):


Small RES (I believe):

That's helpful to know, thanks Theo!

That has been my hypothesis, Jeff. I'm not really certain until the red opercule flap shows up on the Redears, at about 3" or so in length for my fish.

My guess is GW's second pic is a BG hybrid of some sort. SWAG X GSF, WAG X other lepomis.

We need to start doing the gill raker thing.

ewest - is there a handy reference guide / description of the various different types of gill rakers one would see in sunfish family?

Yes there is.

Here is my strong recommendation for you guys to learn to use Wisc. Fish - tons of info.

Common Pond Q&A (archives) » Links to Identification Sites
http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=22;t=000021

Wisc. Fish ID

http://wiscfish.org

From Wisc. Fish ID system. You can take this info or better yet download the software and look at all the pics and descriptions etc.

http://wiscfish.org/

Great site - Here is an example :


GSF
Mouth and snout: Mouth Terminal, large and oblique, with pads of small teeth on the jaws. No barbels. Body patterning, color, and scales: Back dark brown, olive, or green, sides yellow-green or blue-green, belly tan or yellow. Sides either with a more-or-less solid color, faint dark blotches or mottling, irregular faint light blue or yellowish SPOTS, and/or diffuse dark vertical bars. Sometimes 3-5 bluish lines radiating backward from underneath the eye; opercular flap dark with a light margin. Dorsal, caudal, and to a lesser extent anal fins usually darkly pigmented with faint dark blotches or light dark spots and often a light yellow/cream margin; pelvic and pectoral fins lightly pigmented to dusky. 44-51 ctenoid lateral scales. Body shape and size: Body laterally compressed and deep, somewhat elongated; oval in cross section. Typically 75-150 mm (3-6 in) TL; maximum in Wisconsin about 250 mm (10 in).

Tail, dorsal and other fins: Slightly Forked or round tail. Dorsal fin with 2 lobes, broadly joined by a membrane and appearing as one fin, the first with 9-11 spines and the second with 10-12 rays. Pelvic fins thoracic. Adipose fin absent. Anal fin with 3 spines and 9-10 rays.

GSF There are 9-12 short and thick primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.

BG
BG There are 13-16 moderately long primary gill rakers on the 1st arch.


HBG
Hybrid of green sunfish X bluegill: Notice intermediate appearance of gill rakers

Let us know what you see and find out.

These should help

GSF



GSF gill rakers



HBG


HBG (Bg x GSF) gill rakers




Common Name: Scientific Name: Family Name:

Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus Sunfishes (Centrarchidae)


Attribute category Attribute Description
Adult Views no data
Other Views no data
Body Mouth and snout: Mouth terminal, relatively small and oblique, with pads of small teeth on the jaws. No barbels. Body patterning, color, and scales: Black olive brown, sides dark or silver-blue or bluish-olive, belly cream or yellow-orange. Sides usually solid color, often overlain with faint diffuse vertical bars. Opercular flap solid dark blue. Dorsal, caudal, and to a lesser extent anal fins usually a darkly pigmented solid color; the soft dorsal often has a large diffuse blotch at its base. The pelvic and pectoral fins are lightly pigmented to dusky. 39-45 ctenoid lateral scales. Body shape and size: Body laterally compressed and deep; oval in cross section. Typically 150-225 mm (5-9 in) TL; maximum in Wisconsin about 300 mm (12 in).
Fins Tail, dorsal and other fins: Slightly forked or round tail. Dorsal fin with 2 lobes, broadly joined by a membrane and appearing as one fin, the first with about 10 spines and the second with 10-12 rays. Pelvic fins thoracic. Adipose fin absent. Anal fin with 3 spines and 10-12 rays.
Distinguishing Characteristics See similar species information.
Breeding Adults Similar to non-breeders, but with more intense colors (esp. dark blue body, orange belly, dark opercular flap).
Juveniles Similar to adults, but spots and colors less intense, more silvery, usually without vertical bars.
Miscellaneous no data
Hybrids All Lepomis species in Wisconsin have the potential to hybridize with each other, and certain combinations are relatively common.



BG gill rakers


Other type info


A warning though , as Bill notes (check the morphological features) don't rely on appearance alone. This from Dave Willis is an indication of how far off we can be base on looks alone - "The last time up there, I grabbed what appeared to be a parental male bluegill to show a student the long gill rakers, and it had short stubby rakers (i.e., green sunfish gill rakers!). As a result, I really can't tell how much reproduction comes from supposed parentals and how much from the hybrid swarm. This lake has had the hybrids for decades."

Agree with ewest that GWs 2nd pic is a hybrid. Also agree with Theo, freckles means redear.
Is it just me, or does it seem that a bluegills mouth is more slanted upward than a redears?

If they were, it would seem to make sense - BG are much more the natural topwater feeder.

I'm going to try to learn to ID Warmouth in the 1 - 2 inch range. I'm collecting adults now, but if I could trap fingerlings that would speed up the process.

Is there any chance that this fish is a WM?