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#19092 04/03/06 01:05 PM
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My pond is 2 acres. I put 850 BG and 100 RES in the Middle of Feb. The bream are doing great. My question is I have a person who has access to a pond where the LMB has taking over. He said there is hundreds of 6 to 12 inch bass. He said the pond is small and could easily catch a 100 lmb with a net. I was going to put a 100 lmb in my pond at the end of May. Would this be a good idea or should I just go through the fishery when the time comes.

#19093 04/03/06 01:23 PM
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Not sure what size LMB you are thinking about but start with this link.

http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=000096#000003
















#19094 04/03/06 01:59 PM
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A couple of questions:

1. What size bream did you stock?

2. What's your location?


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#19095 04/04/06 04:13 AM
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T. Woods

The LMB in the small pond are probably already stunted and adapted to a smaller size offspring. You should get the best genetics you can if you want trophy size bass.


Please no more rain for a month! :|
#19096 04/04/06 08:43 AM
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If you stock these fish you will defineately be doing the original pond a favor (by removing 50 -100 of these bass). You are also doing the bass a favor. Whethor you are doing yourself any favors is debateable. The facts are these 12" fish may be 4 or 5 years old. They will probably never reach anything resembling trophy size. They will however reproduce and given proper management I think you could have a very nice bass fishery in 3-4 years. I have seen this work but I am sure no professional would recommend it. PondsForFun's asssertion that they may be "adapted to a smaller size offspring" is a new one to me. I would defineatley look into that possibility before moving forward.

With all these questions it sure seems logical to just buck up the $130 or so and buy 100-150 quality fingerlings. I know, its so boring to do things the traditional way.

Speaking of the right way, You stocked on the low side for bream. I therefore would not stock fingerling LMB until fall or spring 07. If you choose the adult bass route, I would not stock them until after the bream spawn in 2007.

Theo asked about your location. I am guessing since you are stocking in Febuary and saying bream that your in the south. I am going with the odds and guessing Texas.

Good luck

#19097 04/04/06 10:16 AM
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He has already answered that question before and is from central Florida.

Here is the thread about genetic changes.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002393

 Quote:
Whethor you are doing yourself any favors is debateable.
Who will debate the other side? I say it is a big mistake.


Please no more rain for a month! :|
#19098 04/04/06 11:34 AM
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I will. If he isn't interested in huge bass those bass will grow to several pounds if managed properly.

#19099 04/04/06 12:14 PM
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How will you pull them out of a stunted state? The number of years they have been there is unknown. What will be the genetic effects of several generations being stunted? Who is not interested in huge bass? \:\) I don't know if I can debate with questions but who makes the rules anyhow? ;\)

Hico- Isn't that the home of Brushy Bill?


Please no more rain for a month! :|
#19100 04/04/06 12:39 PM
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I gotta agree with PFF. Known bass are, to me, a better bet. You don't take the chance of introducing "unknowns", including disease, into your pond.

However, there is another thing to think about. Research indicates that 1/2 of the bass in a pond will never bite a lure. Their progeny is also hook shy. I like the idea of being able to stock bass that will bite and thus having their progeny showing the tendency to be "catchable". I'm not sure that bass from a bass heavy pond really fit that criteria. Those suckers would hit spark plugs or tennis shoes.

If I have to restock, I'm going to try that. First establish a forage base and then catch bass from a lake and stock them.

Just my $.02.

#19101 04/04/06 10:35 PM
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First, I can’t believe I’m disagreeing with Dave…although, it’s the beginner Davidson with only 4 stars, Super Dave still had 5 last time I checked \:\)

Maybe I misread the book, but Lusk’s TLB suggests introducing new genetics every 4 years or so. I would have no problem introducing a few LMB from this pond as long as you feel comfortable with their health and take the dominant ones. You are not investing in the physical fish itself, you’re accepting the bloodline. I prefer stocking an aggressive dominate Bass, I believe this is where most pond owners fail to do their homework.

A brood set from the hatchery can often undergo trauma, they have exposure to humans. They have been dip netted, hate it, and now avoid people at all costs. These fry become evasive from the onset, i.e. hard to catch later in life.

Every LMB stocked into my pond has been taken for genetic reasons coupled with an aggressive nature. (i.e. caught) I recommend stocking a “high end” bass from a proven lake that has a history of stocking Florida Bass…current relative weights in my pond range from 94 to 104 %...and they compete with HSB, Catfish, & Crappie. I wouldn’t hesitate to throw a top end bass from another water source into my pond. The key point I would like to make is, Be Selective ! My LMB genetics are a combination from a total of 24 fish, and those 24 were all well above average.

#19102 04/05/06 02:39 AM
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 Quote:
I have a person who has access to a pond where the LMB has taking over. He said there is hundreds of 6 to 12 inch bass. He said the pond is small and could easily catch a 100 lmb with a net. I was going to put a 100 lmb in my pond at the end of May. Would this be a good idea or should I just go through the fishery when the time comes.
My question is: Did everyone read this part of the original question? Hundreds of small bass in a small pond? This idea of taking fish from this pond and using them to stock another runs contrary to everything I have learned since I have come to this forum. To me the idea is insane and I would advise against any such lunacy!


Please no more rain for a month! :|
#19103 04/05/06 06:54 AM
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Eastland, not sure what you are disagreeing with. Maybe I didn't adequately explain myself.

Let me explain where I'm coming from. Actually, I got the idea from Ewest's research that he provided at D/FW regarding approximately 50% genetic disposition to bite or not to bite. I then took your LMB stocking plan as a possible indicator of a better way to do things. While the rest of us stocked small hatchery raised fish and let them "grow up" in the pond, you did it differently and caught bass from local lakes to start your bass population from bass that had proven the tendency to bite. You selected the best of the bunch. You've never indicated any problem with hook shy bass and most of us have. I consider that a possible leading indicator.

OK, maybe you're a better fisherman than me. However, I doubt that you are a better fisherman than all of us, all the time. In addition to taking a good look at just what you were stocking, you also avoided the bass that were genetically disposed against biting. I know that it sounds like I'm saying "It's not my fault. I just have lousy fish." Maybe so but a lot of us have reported the same problem.

Think about it. How do any of us know that hatchery raised fish will meet our goals? I'm not aware of any testing, other than for research purposes, as to whether we will be able to consistently catch hatchery started fish. I've talked to fish stockers who have indicated that some of the "pure strain Floridas" they have bought from hatcheries didn't pass that genetic test when random samples were sent to TAMU for analysis. I have asked the guys on the fish truck, on several occasions, whether the bass were F-1's. The answer has always been yes. How do I know and what would have been the answer had I posed the question differently?

I've stocked bass from bass heavy ponds and they did bite and "encouraged" existing pond bass to bite. However, those from the other ponds have never seen 2 days in a row when they didn't have to hustle for food. I expect them to keep biting for awhile but can't consider this an indicator for the future. I do expect they are native bass that are easier to catch than Florida strain.

The bottom line? No way I would start out with fish from a cast net in a bass heavy pond and have great expectations for the future. I would much rather have small known bass from your pond than from a hatchery. I'm not slamming hatcheries but I would be more comfortable hearing about their customers experiences regarding ongoing catchability. I would really love to buy from a hatchery that had done this testing but doubt that it would be economically feasible for them.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.

Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
#19104 04/05/06 12:28 PM
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Hmmm...

 Quote:
Originally posted by PondsForFun:
He has already answered that question before and is from central Florida.
I guess I didn't remember that. I have trouble remembering where all the 2000+ members of the forum are from. I would humbly suggest that T. Woods fill in that info in his profile to avoid being asked that question over and over again. No big deal IMO.

 Quote:
Originally posted by PondsForFun:

Here is the thread about genetic changes.

http://www.pondboss.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002393
Interesting abstract. I don't want to thread jack so I will try to keep my comments short. I am not sure how we make the leap from over fished Atlantic silverside to under fished LMB. Perhaps this is discussed in the full article? Without reading the entire article my theory would be simple case of artificial selection (as opposed to darwinian natural selection). If the largest are always removed from the population, we are basically artificially selecting individuals that stay small. The same way we made small dogs from larger wild stock. BTW this is why anter restrictions on deer is a horrible managment technique in most circumstances. ohh I hate that

#19105 04/05/06 02:15 PM
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 Quote:
I guess I didn't remember that. I have trouble remembering where all the 2000+ members of the forum are from
I don't believe I asked you to recite the home of all the members.

Well I remembered it because someone suggested he might be a golf player. \:\)

The paper I still have available if you would like to read it. If it was natural selection I would not have even mentioned the paper. It is suggesting genetic changes from smaller fish spawning will produce a smaller variety to cope with environment. This is a personal communication with the author:

ME
"Do you think these changes to the genetic size of these fish is related to the their size when they span?"

THE AUTHOR
I have attached a copy of the paper. I believe it will help in your questions. All of the traits we measured are correlated responses to genetic declines in body size. If you have any further questions I would be happy to answer
them.



"During generation 5, the fecundity in the large-size harvested populations was c. 60% less than the random-size harvested fish!"


60% is a number big enough IMO to bridge all species of fish!


Please no more rain for a month! :|
#19106 04/05/06 07:18 PM
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Maybe I wasn't quite clear in my post, I'll try to explain why I wouldn't be opposed to relocating a few of the top end bass from this crowded/stunted pond into mine. Let's say you can catch 30-50 fish a day in this overcrowded pond. While you're catching these fish, you fight the urge to recast...you take each one, measure and weigh it. First, you already captured the instinct of a LMB to strike, I like the aggressiveness of this fish. Second, plot the results, keep any fish that hits the 80-90% threshold for their expected Relative Weight in the fish box. At the end of the day, remeasure and take the top 4 or 5 fish. The fish in this pond are not inferior, they simply don't have enough to eat. Since a LMB can swallow another 1/2 his size, the food chain is there, for those bass who "think big". It takes high end individuals to reach desired weights in this environment, they are all T-Rex, and probably survived eating their siblings and anything else they can chew on. Now, imagine a fish with that attitude in a pond with a heavy forage base. You don't want that particular fish, you want his/her offspring.

You can't go into a hatchery and hand pick the ones you want...but you can in the wild \:\)

#19107 04/05/06 07:44 PM
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I like the sound of that approach, Eastland.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
-S. M. Stirling
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#19108 04/06/06 08:06 AM
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I appreciate all of the responses to my question. Ya'll have giving me a lot to think about. I knew everyone would have some good answers. I also updated my profile so hopefully my location will show up after this post.


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