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#18145 01/26/04 11:08 AM
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When I was looking around on different websites I found alot of fish species that seemed like they might make a good forrage fish. Since there hasn't been much action here lately I thought I'd strike up a discussion about it.
Now I know that bluegill are going to be the primary food soure for my bass but I have heard many times that diverisity in the food chain is key. Things like fatheads, frogs, crawdads, golden shiners and shad are talked about all the time but I dont know much about the following:
Sculpins. A favorite bait in many places and often imitated by fly-fishermen. They also seem to be important in the food chain wherever they live.
American Brook Lampreys. They live most of thier lives under the mud as larvae, then emerge as adults (at 8"-9" it think) to spawn, then they die. Since they only eat crud that they slurp off of rocks I imagine that they wouldn't compete much with other species.
American Eels. Currently being dicussed under "questions and observations", I was under the impresion that American Eels were an anadromous species that spawn in the gulf of mexico and the females swim up rivers to live and grow then return to the gulf to spawn. Is this correct or am I mixing up my eels? Will they reproduce in lakes and ponds?
Tadpole madtoms. They only get to 4" and they spawn continually throughout the summer.
Stonecats. Another runt catfish but all I know about them is that they live in the rocks and I've heard that they are the #1 favorite food of channel catfish.
Darters. Tiny cousins of yellow perch and walleye that seem like they might be quick enough (unlike fatheads) to survive and multiply.
Alewifes. There has been some discussion about them but certain details have been left out. fecudity? spawning reqirements? exact temperature range? sources?
Other minnow/shiner. I've found more species of minnows and shiner than I can count but is there a species of minnow that will survive in the presence of LMB or a species of Shiner that is not subject to the ovarian parisite.

Deos anybody have information about any of these such as spawning reqirements, fecundity, diets, temperature ranges, or any sources for them? Are any of these a good option for a forrage species and why/why not? Anybody know of another cool forrage species that deosn't get mentioned much?

-Scott

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/25/22 10:12 AM.

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Scott
Great post. I have very similiar questions. I tried to find some more info on the alewife since that was the only species I was moderately familiar with.

http://www.anr.state.vt.us/dec/waterq/ans/alewife.htm

http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/fishfact/alewife.pdf

There is alot of useful information on those pages.

Previously I was considering stocking these fish, but after doing some more research I don't think I will. In one or more of the sites I looked at it said they underwent massive dieoffs, and competed directly with YOY fish such as your bass and bluegill.

Hope this helps
Chris

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Darters are found almost exclusivly in cool to cold streams. Although there are about 130 darters in the US, and they don't require moving water to spawn, they prefer streams. Darters are bottom dwellers, since most of them completly lack a swim bladder. Depending on the species they may survive in your bass pond, they may even reproduce, but they will never be numerous enough to be a serious addition to the food chain.

Madtoms and stonecats also prefer moving water. Madtoms are often found with darters.

One minnow that I am interested in stocking in my pond, or raising commercialy for bait, is the central mudminnow. Does anyone have experience stocking these scrappy little minnows in ponds? or raising them for bait?

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Most of the fish species you mentioned (sculpins, madtoms, darters, etc.) are stream fish that require stream habitat to live and reproduce successfully. They won't last long at all in a pond situation and are difficult to obtain or raise in any significant numbers. I have dealt with many ponds built on small streams that have populations of darters and madtoms captured during pond construction and they (darters and madtoms) never last more than one year. One of the reasons we hear so much about shiners, shad, and bluegill is because they are the tried and true forage species that work in warmwater ponds.

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Even with fathead minnows and golden shiners, it seems that everyone says that "they will be eliminated quickly by bass unless you have enough cover".

What is enough cover? About how big of an area is enough? How deep should this area be? What type of vegitation is needed, both emergent and submergent? Just approximates.

Also, I've read that fathead minnows will eat the eggs of golden shiners and that they can't be raised together. Is that true?

Two other species that might have potential as forage are tadpole madtoms and sticklebacks. In the south, what about species like dollar sunfish and brook silversides?


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You guys can ask a lot of short questions in a couple sentences that ca require lengthy answers. Try one question at a time (at least for me). It takes quite a bit of time for multiple lengthy answers that are informative, have some substance and try to touch on the variables or "it all depends" conditions.

I'll address some of the ones I know the most about and that haven't been answered.
1.All fish including forage have to eat something within the pond system and most end up competing at one time or another with something else in the pond due to relatively small confined area and over-lap of feeding habits and "lifestyles" But we went over this before in detail from different angles in the topics of "Suckers" and "High diverisy-low diversity". The ideal types of forage are those that can reproduce abundantly and remain vulnerable to predation yet perpetuate and have minimal competition to sport fish or the prefered fish.

2. Eels will not reproduce in ponds as I know it. They need a marine stage. Eels are also predtory and have sharp teeth for catching fish.

3. Sculpins are mostly a cool or cold water fish that spawn in streams similar to most darters. Some darters do spawn in ponds such as the johnny darter but egg masses are small and they are not prolific. Adults never get much bigger than 2"-2.5" and cannot tolerate much predatory pressure for long term survival.

4. Alewives are very similar sized to threadfin shad. I think they have potential for producing bass and other larger predtors. Big draw back is lack of their panfish, sport, edible, feature. I do not see dieoffs as a big negative. When and if fish have periodic die-off, bass will gorge themselves on dying fish. Die off could be a plus preventing overpopulation of forage fish. They will compete heavily with all species who are eating zooplankton.

5. Pottsy is our current mudminnow "expert".

6. I agree with Scott about shiners, shad and bgill. Lots of very smart naturalists and fish raisers have been here before. What works, or has workded best,,,, is what is primarily recommeded the most.

7. Norm and Cover Questions. Some of this has been answered before but it has been mostly mixed in with other topic headings just as this answer will be; buried in the topic of "Alternate forrage species". I my opinion cover is sort of species specific. I say this because cover has or comes in many types and is used differently (behaviors) by different species. Plus many if not all species are somewhat adaptable TO A CERTAIN EXTENT to diferent types of cover when the need arises. So there are really no definates or absolutes here either.

When one talks about cover there are two basic types. FISH ATTRACTORS and REFUGE AREAS.

Fish Attractors are what most pondowners put in their pond as manmade materials for fish habitat which also includes coarse and finer tree brush. These are loose ("fluffy" as Lusk calls them) fitting structures with numerous openings and not very extensive in terms of square yards occupied (or % of pond bottom). These "manmades" serve primarily as ambush points for predators who hang out there waiting for smaller fish to arrive or exit.

Refuge areas are expansive areas containing dense tightly positioned materials that only small fish can easily enter / penetrate and many predators esp larger ones have a hard time penetrating navagitating. Refuge areas are primarily Nursery areas; places for small fish to live and grow. Predators thus live on the edges or perifery of refuge areas. Ideally refuge areas are areas where small fish can live, eat and grow and not encouter a predator of any size much bigger than themselves. One or even a dozen Christmas trees or evergreens are basically fish attractors. 40 to 100 of them together in less than 4 ft deep START to become a refuge area. Weed beds (underwater and emergent) are in my experience & opinion the only good refuge/nursery areas for ponds or small lakes. Underwater weeds that are too tightly compact and dense are in my opinion less desirable as refuge areas. The ideal weed beds should allow small fish to swim among the stems and leaves to feed and forage, yet always having relative or adquate protection. Some or even many weed species/beds are too compact (such as Chara, elodea(Anacharis), thick milfoil) to allow free movement of small and young YOY fish. Best weed beds are composed of eel grass and many of the looser open spacing style of pondweeds (Potomogeton) some types are called cabbage. These weeds beds can at times allow some predators to hunt among the weeds but small fish have a real good chance of escape in these lose but dense areas. Emergent weeds can provide some cover for small fish but the success of foraging for food of young fish is limited in these areas. By far the most diverse and abundant larger invertebrate food items occur in underwater, denser, leafy weed bed areas such as those mentioned above.

8. Amount of cover is relative. For an optimum "average" bass-bgill fishery, the research has shown that 30% to 40% of the pond bottom should contain weed growth. Up to around 40% coverage(depending of weed species) the bass and bgill populations will keep increasing and improving. Over 40% weed coverage weeds become too thick and bass have a too difficult time finding enough bgill, and then bgill are over protected and start becoming over abundant. Then bass populations start to decline. How to maintain long-term the 25% to 35% weed coverage is the BIG challenge. I also think having the proper weed species is very important to the overall success of this concept or process. Keep in mind that this reasearch was for bass-bgill populations and different percentages of weed coverage may be optimum for different species.

9. Another form of refuge for small fish is cloudy water. Sight feeding predators become less effective in cloudier water. Thus plankton blooms or murky water can serve as a refuge for small fish. If the predators can't find them they can't eat them.

10. I have raised fathead minnows and golden shiner together with some other fish in a 1/3 acre pond. Shiner eggs are laid unprotected and an over abundant fathead population will consume a majority if not all of the eggs from shallow weedy shoreline spawning areas. Once again proper types and amount of weed growth, proper fish density and proper food items are key to survival of eggs, fry, and YOY of both species when in combination.

11. Silversides are temperature tolerant and live in a unique niche. They will live in norhtern ponds that freeze over. They have potential as a forage species. However I think they are very predatory on lots of fish fry of all species. In other words, each mature silverside is capable of eating lots of fish fry when they are available.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 10/25/22 10:09 AM.

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I have sticklebacks in my aquarium and read a study on predators ability to eat sticklebacks. Brook stickle backs only grow to a couple inches, and have enough spines to actualy deter predators. Fish can eat them but it takes longer and is more dangerous. I think they would be a very poor replacment for fatheads. Even if they did survive and add a minnow to the forage base, the only predator that will be able to eat them easily will be fish that can target larger forage.

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Thank you Bill for your answer. Yes, there sure were a lot of questions and you're answers were great as usual.

Many of us stock fathead minnows and golden shiners. I wonder how many of us actually get them to establish a breeding forage base. We have an area of channels and islands. This area is filled with cattails and white water buttercup. On one island edge, I put in about 10 pallets of concrete blocks. I'm hoping that crayfish and these small species of fish can survive in this area but I'm not sure they do.

I put about 20 gal. of brook sticklebacks in our lake and they were eaten as fast as the fatheads.


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We have had very successful spawnings from fathead minnows.

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The study I read may have used three spine stickle backs along with 10 spine stickle backs. The other minnows that were feed to the pike and perch were prefered to the stickle backs. In one case a perch that had attacked and started to swallow a stickle back began to bleed from the gills, evidently injured by its prey. The perch managed to eat the stickle back anyway.
If someone is looking for forage for thier small bass (4"-10") stickle backs will be more difficult for them to eat. However I am sure that a 16" bass would have little problem eating a 3" stickle back.

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I have fished with silversides before. Atleast thats what I think they were. I would be interested in stocking them for forage if I could find some. They are pretty difficult to keep alive in a bait bucket. Norm, where do you get all your fish or the sticklebacks.

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Around here, it is easy to get sticklebacks. Bait shops catch them along with with fathead minnows but no one wants to buy them because fish don't bite them as readily as fathead minnows. I get gallons of them for free.

Richard Carlson (402-375-3262) supplies most of my fish.


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What about Redfin Shiners? Has anyone tried or had much luck maintaining them in a pond?

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Redfin shiners, like most shiners, are really native to rivers and spawn there.
Here is a fish I wonder about, lots of spawning, prefers deep water and maxes out at 8". The Troutperch.
bad link
http://www.gen.umn.edu/research/fish/fishes/trout_perch.html

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Ty,
That is a KEEPER! I'll bet there aren't any around here. \:\( Thanks though I'll be looking for them just in case!


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