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#13960 02/02/06 09:44 AM
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I am new to the forum and new to pond stocking. I have been doing my research and have learned a great deal, but I wanted to ask you, the veterans a couple questions.

I recently moved into a new home in a brand new subdivision. There is a four-acre pond right out my back door. My neighbor and I are anxious to get some fish in it. The pond is man-made and probably two seasons old. There are plenty of ducks, egrets, and minnows. There are no fish of any size to speak of. There is also little vegetation. I have a good friend who manages a handful of private ponds in the area and offered to supply me with 200 one to one and half-pound bass over the course of the spring so as to avoid costly stocking and waiting until fall (BG) and the following spring (Bass) for our fish supply. I know they will feed heavily on the minnows, worms, bugs, etc. that are already in the pond. I do not want these minnows to grow as they could be anything; carp, crappie, gar, etc. that would be harmful to the health of the pond. I am also going to fish heavily for bluegill in various private ponds and then transfer them into my pond. I am also in the process of making and installing bream beds and fish hides for the protection of the bluegills. I know they will spawn each full moon and hopefully provide constant food for the bass.

My questions are:
Will this process be enough to keep the bass satisfied?
How many bluegill will be sufficient for 200 bass?
When do bass spawn?
Does anyone have information on Fisheries in West TN, Eastern AR, or Northern MS?

Thank you,


-Terry
#13961 02/02/06 11:28 AM
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When do bass spawn?
This is the easy question they usually spawn in April or May when water temperatures reach 62 to 72 degrees usually once a year.

How many bluegill will be sufficient for 200 bass?
and Will this process be enough to keep the bass satisfied?

What we have got to remember is it takes 7 to 10 pounds of bluegills or other fish to produce 1 pound of bass. What we would do is to start catching the bluegill and add at least one hundred per acre so they can start reproducing as soon as the water warms up. This still may not be enough forage in your pond, because the 1 to 1 1/2 pound bass may have consumed all of the natural forage and it will be next fall before there is enough bluegill forage for your bass. Supplimental forage such as shad or fathead minnows may be needed.

Does anyone have information on Fisheries in West TN, Eastern AR, or Northern MS?

Contact your local Department of Natural Resources and they should have a list of fish dealers in your area.

Hoped this helps,
Wendy
owenandwilliams.com


Wendy
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#13962 02/02/06 11:45 AM
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Neat project you have there. You have a unique situation where others can (and will) introduce fish that will affect the pond. You also have a lot of minnows of unknown origin. Given these facts, I would stock in the most cost effective manner available since a lot of factors are out of your control. Stocking adult bass before bluegill is not the norm, but if you are getting a good deal on them I say go for it. Also remember that once these bass are in, everything else you stock must be large enough to survive predation. Your bluegills for example should be 5". This is not a big deal if you can catch your own in this size range. If you have to buy them, they are much more costly than the smaller sizes.

Now lets talk about numbers. 300 lbs of bass sounds like overkill to me, especially with just a minnow forage base and unknown fertility. When you say minnow I envision 1-2" fish. Your LMB will eat these but they are not preferred and growth will be slow. you may need to supplement this food source until the BG get established. For 4 acres, you should stock a minimum of 200 adult BG. I would not hesitate to stock as many as 400+. Good Luck, keep us updated.

#13963 02/02/06 11:49 AM
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TerryS. I can only comment on your question:

“How many bluegill will be sufficient for 200 bass?”
(I have a good friend who manages a handful of private ponds in the area and offered to supply me with 200 one to one and half-pound bass over the course of the spring so as to avoid costly stocking and waiting until fall (BG) and the following spring (Bass) for our fish supply.)

When we originally stocked our pond some four years ago, we stocked by the book with fingerling LMB and BG.
I got impatient and took up my friend’s neighborly gift of about ten adult LMB.
They promptly began feasting on the juvenile BG.

I asked Mr. Lusk for advise and if I recall correctly, he advised to stock seven (7) adult BG for each adult LMB – he may want to correct me on this.

If I am correct, you will need some 1400 adult hand size bluegill.

I would be wary of stocking 200 adult LMB until I had an adequate forage base established unless I was willing to stock adult bluegill.

Good luck on your pond,
George Glazener

#13964 02/02/06 11:59 AM
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JayMan. GREAT looking pond !!

#13965 02/02/06 12:02 PM
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Thanks Ted.

Terry,
Geez, I should have given my Bass before BG case study. My pond is 1 acre. When I bought it, it was inhabited by bullhead and lots of fathead minnows. No BG. I manually removed many bullhead but they were still easy to catch. In June 2004, I stocked 100 3" LMB. By June 2005 the bass were about 8-9" and were over their mean weight. Bullhead were much harder to catch and minnows were becoming rare. In July 2005 I stocked adult BG. Minnows all but disappeared by August 2005 as the YOY LMB began to grow. By fall 2005 the bass were slightly under mean weight so i removed a few and began to supplement with whatever was handy. So far so good but you have to keep an eye on it.

#13966 02/02/06 12:11 PM
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This is an interesting problem due to the initial conditions (unknown "minnows" which could be anything as Terry points out) and the lack of control inherently present in a subdivision pond.

If it were me personally, I'd take the bass knowing I'm going to have to add adult (5"+) BG like crazy to get the permanent forage base established. No one has brought up the concern of introducing fish diseases or parasites with the bass and BG, so I will mention it. As well as the danger of mis-identified fish coming in as "LMB" or "BG." How good are you at telling BG from Green Sunfish or their other Lepomis cousins?

Terry, is their a home owners association and if so, have they established any rules for use of the pond including fishing? This is an important management item to at least give you a chance of having a controlled fishery.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#13967 02/02/06 01:46 PM
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Thank you all for your comments it is very helpful.

Theo, I am glad you brought up bluegill, sunfish, etc. I can identify the differences, but what do you recommend I stay away from and why?

Thanks again,


-Terry
#13968 02/02/06 02:46 PM
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Green Sunfish - don't get very big, don't spawn often enough to be as good a forage for bass.

Redears - don't spawn as much as BG, but if you catch any, put 'em in for growth potential and snail (& hence parasite) control.

The other Lepomis species have no big negatives other than smaller size that I am aware of. Many have (localized) fans due to their attractive appearances.


"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever."
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#13969 02/02/06 05:18 PM
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Man the other folks must be on the way to GA. IMHO you will ruin this pond for many years if you stock 200 adult bass. Don;t mean to come on strong but about to make a big mistake. This is way too many bass to sustain growth for a 4 acre pond.
1. identify the minnows-- they might be juvenille bluegill- hard to do until it warms a bit
2. Stock additional forage- fathead minnows, bluegill, redear
3. stock fingerling bass after all others are established

if you plan to save money by stocking the bass it will not work b/c as mentioned you will have to stock larger bluegill that cost 4 times the price of fingelring bluegill. Jayman got this to work b.c he used 3 inch bass that is world of diff in 1-1.5 lb bass.


Greg Grimes
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#13970 02/02/06 06:06 PM
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I agree with Greg, doing it right the first time is priceless! Take your time, let your pond grow forage before stocking bass in June.


It's ALL about the fish!
#13971 02/02/06 07:20 PM
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There are many aspects to this question and some have been addressed. Here are a couple more.

Some northern states recommend putting in FH and bass first because BG have a stronger tendency to stunt up north and as a result there needs to be more ability to control the BG. Not so in the south. That is one reason Jayman's pond worked well even though a little different approach.

One of the best rules is don't try to fool mother nature unless you can manage around her as her wrath is harsh. What does that mean? Carrying capacity is mother nature's limit on ponds. In 4 acres in the south you can manage 300-400 lbs per acre of fish safely in a fertile pond. Of that 25% can be predators- so 1500 lbs. of fish +- and 300-400 lbs of predators. If you add 200 LMB at 1.25 lbs. that is 250 lbs. Assuming growth in 1-2 yrs you are over capacity. If you do the same with BG sufficient to feed those bass at 10 lbs to 1 lb. of bass that is 2500 lbs. of BG to start, with no room to grow. When all of that spawns the first time you better hold on and be a real good aquaculturist or watch out.

Next question- Where did the LMB come from? My experience with this type offer is usually they come from LMB crowded ponds and are often stunted. That is 10-12 in. LMB that are 3-4+ yrs old. Those fish are hard pressed to ever reach their genetic growth potential because they are always trying to catch up. I don't want those in my pond. Their offspring may be fine but you lose the chance to have your first stocked LMB be your best year class ,with a fast growth rate that comes from a new pond.

What is contemplated can be done with expert management and a lot of work. But it would be a big job and not one I would want to try.
















#13972 02/02/06 08:31 PM
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Terry - You have received some good advice so far but you have to be able to sift through it. After reading this far some of it IS good but conflicting.

Jayman is definately correct about minnows of unknown orgin. No doubt, kids or a couple well meaning fishermen have already stocked this pond in their own way. God knows what is in your pond. Since you are seeing fish in the pond, ideally the pond should be killed off and start over from scratch. This may not be feasable for you since the money is probably not available and it is a community pond that is still vulnerable to unwanted fish stockings.

Then what is the next best way to proceed?. Since you don't have full control of the pond as far as what goes in or out, I think probably the best you can hope for is an average LMB-bgill and maybe catfish fishery. You probably will not be able to manage it properly for trophy LMB or trophy bluegill due to lack of ability to control harvest and fishing pressure.

Firstly, I think you should do some homework and try and find out what species some of the minnows are and what the current size of the food base is like. Set some baited, drab colored minnow traps or use some baited lift nets. Keep in mind that minnows are minnows/shiners and small game fish are considered fingerlings; two completely separate fish categories. Small bass or bgill are not minnows they are fingerlings. Try to determine if you have bullheads, sunfishes other than bgill and if you have carp. Presence of these species will determine somewhat how the bass / predators are mnanaged. "Regular" minnows and shiners will not cause the pond to have long term "issues" and management problems. LMB will easily control minnows and shiners; adults of other trash fish are a different story. Seining and electrofishing are possible options for sampling the current fish community, but maybe not feasable in your situation.

Secondly. Once you get an idea of what problem fish are in the pond and their numbers then this will give you some idea of how to stock the LMB as far as numbers and sizes. Too many larger bass could overeat the food source, but on the positive, they will clean up practically all the existing small trash. Stocking larger bass this spring, even if they are stunted, will probaly result in a bass spawn which will produce lots of young bass. Without proper food they will not grow very fast and they will result in more stunted bass.

I tend to agree with G.Grimes & Todd (Overtonfisheries) that 200 small adult LMB (50/ac) are too many for a new pond situation even it it has a existing YOUNG trash fish population. However stocking fingerling or even 4"-6" LMB bass will allow the existing trash fish to get a head start and foot hold in your pond. Again determining what those "MINNOWS"
are and what their relative abundance is will be a big help in what type & number of predators to stock.

I think a middle of the road plan for stocking of young adult LMB is acceptable in your situation. Maybe only stock 50-60 larger (10"-13") bass +or- 12. Keep in mind that these LMB are likely stunted; coming from an overcrowded pond. However with stocking fewer bass, you can now be able to add (hook and line catching) a reasonable number of adult bluegill (not hybrids.) Their 2006 offspring should be able to feed the new youngser 2006 bass. George has given you a pretty good number of adult bgill (4.5"or >5") to stock for each larger bass, i.e. seven +/- 2. Seven times 50 bass is around 300-400 bluegill which you may be able to actually accomplish by fishing. NOTE THAT stocking 25-30 LMB and 200 bgill may be even a BETTER stocking plan. 25 hungry bass, 12" long can do a lot of hunting and eat a lot of "minnows" during the spring and summer until the young bass are big enough to themselves be forage items. The fewer of the larger bass you initially stock the faster and better they will grow.

The parasite and disease introduction potential from introducing wild fish is a definate risk. I would not do it in my pond. But this in not my or your pond it is a community pond and these unwanted problems are likely to occur anyway sooner or later in an "open to the "public"" pond. I am pretty sure that local residents or their relatives will always be sneaking in extra fish to "help" the pond. I think you will just have do the best you can with what you have to work with. Over time if you and a home owners association discover that this fishery is not working out to your goals then the pond can always be killed off and restocked. Good luck and keep us posted on what is happening with your new fishery. WE are interested what you decided to do and on how it is working out. We are here to help with advice.


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#13973 02/02/06 09:58 PM
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Here's my spin. Avoid the large bass in the beginning. Tempting as it is, stocking big bass too quickly will set you back, and you won't realize it for four to five years.
Stock forage fish first, be patient, then stock bass, once the food chain is established.
It really doesn't cost that much. You live less than 90 miles from sportfish hatchery Mecca. Shop and save. If you paid top dollar to stock fingerlings, you could pay as little as $1,000. In these days of fast food, stocking fingerlings may seem like an eternity to maturity, but they get there much quicker than you think. Stocking big bass before a forage fish base is established, compared with stocking fingerlings at the right times, the fingerling stocking will surpass the big bass in the third year.
If you want to stock the big bass, stock 100-150 adult bluegill per surface acre now, let them spawn, the add the larger bass AFTER the bass have spawned. Your odds of success go up if you do it that way. (This amounts to 10-20 adult bluegill per bass.) Another idea, stock the adult bluegill, and only stock 20 large bass per acre, or 80 total. Better growth rates with fewer numbers, and better odds of a balanced fishery in several years.


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He can teach to catch fish...
#13974 02/03/06 09:50 AM
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Bill has hit a lot of important points. I think the fact that this is a public pond needs to be one of the foremost considerations when considering how to stock it. Don't forget to consider the effects of LMB harvesting. Do you have any young fishermen in the neighborhood?

Undoubtedly the accepted method to stocking this pond would be to kill everything in it ($$$), stock BG ($$) and fatheads ($$) followed by fingerling LMB at a later date ($$$). Most professionals will recommend this as the safest option. Personally I would not sink that much of my money on an essentially public pond. It doesn't sound like Terry wants to either. There are other more worthwhile charities. I think everyone has given you solid advise on what will be necessary if you choose to stock the adult bass. Good luck and keep us posted.

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Jayman it is a tough situation. I also have had client move to a place with a pond and say they only have minnows and it turns out they have bass as well. Some evualuation of current fish population strucutue is the utmost importance before stocking anything free or not. SO I disagree if your above statment if Terry stocks the 1 lb bass now it will in the longrun cost him much more money to ever have a good fishery.


Greg Grimes
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#13976 02/03/06 11:05 AM
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Bill & Bob,

Thank you for all your comments and suggestions, they have not fallen on deaf ears. I want to do what is best for this pond and for the fish. And after soaking up all the great info from everyone I think I am going change my game plan alittle.

First, let me address a few concerns brought up. The bass I will be getting are of great quality and the ponds they are coming from are very well maintained. This is not a situation of emergency harvest due to overpopulation and they are not all coming from one pond but from 5 different ponds all managed by the same person.

The pond although in a new develpoment only has six houses that back up to it with the rest of the pond being surrounded with woods (that will not be developed). I think the amount of fishers will be limited since there are other, more easily accesable ponds already established near by. However the occasional stranger may appear. I think there will more of a problem with fish being harvested inappropriately than depositing other fish, although, it may happen.

The "minnows" that are currently in the pond have not yet been idenitfied yet. I plan to throw a net this weekend and see what I can find out. I do not think these fish were planted by another person, more likely naturally inserted by ducks and birds. However, I do not want them in the pond and am hoping the adult bass will gobble them to extinction.

My goal for this pond is mostly sport fishing and occasionally fishing for food. The ultimate goal would be TROPHY bass but I think this pond, lack of money, and the uncontrollable circumstances will not allow for such. I am looking for a good fishing pond.

Okay, with all of that said here is my revised plan. I am now planning on cutting the number of bass in half or more (50-100). Also I intend to stock the bass slowly (ten here, ten there) not all at once. Before the first batch and inbetween each batch stocked I plan to stock a large number of adult bluegill. That way I can closely monitor the bass-to-bluegill ratio. With multiple spaws from the bluegill and thealready present "minnows" hopefully this will be a good balance (not perfect, but good). Any more thoughts?


-Terry
#13977 02/03/06 11:24 AM
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Greg,

Tough situation is right. I agree evaluating the current fish population is important. What is the best way to determine there are no pre-existing large predators in a 4 acre pond? Live fingerling bait is probably the cheapest most effective method.

In a similar situation, my neighbor ended up feeding a couple hundred dollars of fingerlings to a toothy fishy last Spring.

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Terry - A lot can happen as far as humans and fish introduction in a pond two seasons old. By seasons I assume you mean 2 yrs and not a fall and a winter. Forty yrs in the pond business have taught me that birds did not do that fish stocking in your 4 ac pond especially if a couple species are present. I doubt very much that all you have are minnows. Unless you are really talented with a cast net I don't expect you will catch much with a net. Wire mesh minnow traps that are drab colored and baited work good at sampling most species of smaller fishes except LMB.

Your alternative plan sounds okay. It will allow for adjustments as the fishery develops. You probably don't have money for adequate stocking and your plan is probably the cheapest and one with the most likelihood of producing a fair fishery after a couple years. Time and management will determine the longer term conditions. AS I said earlier you can always start over if trash fish take over the pond. If the resulting fishery is fairly good you will be suprised how many "friends" the four home owners have.

By all means keep us posted on the pond's progress. Occasionally return to this post and up-date us. Thanks. We all may learn a little as things progress. Let us know what you catch this weekend with your net sampling.


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#13979 02/06/06 08:32 AM
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Over the weekend I threw the cast net numerous times. Each cast produced about a dozen "minnows" the largest being about one and a half inches. The cast net also produced a couple snails. I was unable to identiy the species of fish so I took pictures and hopefully someone can help me. Please go to the link below.

Minnow Pictures


-Terry
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Terry:

To my non-pro eye, those look like Mosquitofish, Gambusia affinis (IIRC there is another Gambusia species, so it could be them). If I am correct, that's good news (for at least this one kind of "minnow" in the pond) - Gambusia are just fine to have, won't get much bigger than you have seen them, make good (albeit small) forage.


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#13982 02/06/06 11:53 AM
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The fish in your pictures were adult mosquito fish but from the photos I am not sure of the species. Most of the smaller fish in the photo were the males. Males don't get as big and the female mosquito fish. Mosquito fish due to their habits are very vulnerable to catching with cast nets.

IF all you have in that pond is mosquito fish then stocking large bass is unnecessary; but a fishery could be produced with larger bass if it is done correctly.


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Terry what is water temp? Until it gets into 50's you might have other fish out in deeper water that have not came to shore. If all you have is gambusia, great news, stock bluegill adults and you can turn around and stock some of those bass not too far down the line.


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