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#461739 01/10/17 11:10 AM
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I have a few, hopefully simple, questions regarding a siphon overflow system. I'm in the early stages of building a pond(design stage actually) and my obsessive nature makes we want to know everything about it before I begin. If you haven't guessed I'm an engineer but don't hold that against me. I've ordered Otto's book and subscribed to the magazine and can't wait to get my hands on them, maybe some of these questions are covered in one of those places. Here goes.

I recently put in an offer on a piece of property and hope to be able to put a 2-3 acre pond for recreational use with my family; fishing, swimming, boating, etc. The proposed pond site is downhill of a spring so there would be water constantly feeding it; flow volume currently unknown.

My first question is: with a siphon overflow, is there a way to create a more steady outflow from your pond as opposed to the more on/off characteristic that comes with a siphon? I don't see a scenario of when you're just getting a trickle through them and the size of pipes I'm(at this point) guessing I'll need will flow a very large volume of water. That brings up the question of what happens with the ponds downstream(there are a few)? If this siphon came on once a month their water levels would also vary. This may actually be my main concern. I can see a pond across the street that's maybe just under an acre and looks to be in really bad shape. It always looks several feet low so I'm betting it was just a hole dug in the ground and leaks constantly. But, it's someone's pond and they would probably appreciate it if it maintained some level of water. If I put in a pond upstream and suddenly they were getting water occasionally as opposed to a steady flow would the water level drop enough to cause problems? Or worse, when my siphon kicked on and my 3 acre pond came down 6 inches in a short period of time into a one acre pond what kind of havoc would that cause? I know no one can answer that question but that is what is giving me the desire to have a more steady flow of water out of my pond.

There are still a ton of variables in the air so I can only guess at how often the siphon would operate and how big a system I would need. Could you size the siphon tube appropriately so that it's almost at equilibrium with the inflow? If you did that would you put a larger siphon slightly higher than that to handle scenarios when you get additional inflow(I actually like this idea). Or just let a spillway handle it(want to avoid water going over dam obviously)?

My next question has to do with dropping water levels during the winter or to work on the shoreline, dock, etc. If I wanted to drop the water level by about 4 feet, I understand how to do that, but how do you get the water level to maintain that for extended periods of time? In this case, where I have water constantly coming in, wouldn't I need to drain it back down every time it filled up? Again, I don't know yet how often that would be because I don't know how long it would take to fill up.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience with me.

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So I've been doing my homework and reading more into this system so somebody hopefully can tell me if I'm understanding everything. For one I learned I should more accurately refer to it as a bottom draw system. Secondly, I learned that this system can have different flow rates as opposed to just on/off conditions. This is achieved by careful placement of the air vent. I had assumed you wanted to put it a few inches below your overflow pipe and I think, at least for what I'm trying to achieve, I want it above the overflow. As long as the air vent is exposed to atmosphere this will allow for anywhere from a trickle of water through the system to as much flow is possible without any additional force behind it. Then, in the event of a large rain, a water level increase that blocks the air vent will allow the siphon condition to begin and the water will flow at an even higher rate probably dependent on how great a difference of height there is between the intake in the pond and the discharge point.

If this is the correct train of thought my next step would be sizing the piping.

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You are correct, a siphon system only siphons when the air intake is below the water level, allowing all the air to flush out of the pipe to start a siphon effect. The Siphon breaks once the air intake is exposed again. Otherwise your pipe just acts as a drain and will maintain a steady level of the pond until the water level gets below the highest point in the pipe, where outflow will then stop.

In my pond, I simply have an area of virgin ground that acts as an overflow. I sweated it out the first two years waiting for vegetation to take hold on it, but now I am confident that it can withstand some large flows. There isn't a lot of elevation change where this outflow is located so erosion isn't much of a concern.

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Thanks for the confirmation

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There is some confusion of what constitutes a siphon system and a bottom draw system.

You can have a bottom draw type overflow without it being a siphon system and you can have a conventional pipe overflow that goes into siphon mode. I have the latter.

But most people seem to lump the two terms of siphon and bottom draw together as if they are mutual. They are not. They are two independant attributes that are often combined in a system but can also be exclusive.

Last edited by snrub; 01/13/17 08:33 AM.

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not to change the siphon subject, but i have built 2 ponds and used the traditional stand pipe with trash racks. but on both of them i installed a second pipe straight thru the dam at the same depth as the main pipe. i put the valve on the dry side of the dam. i can open it and lower the pond whenever i like and never get wet.

a few things i would suggest. make sure you calculate and get the proper riser size (vertical pipe) so your horizontal pipe will carry a full pipe of water during heavy rains without gurgling. also make the trash rack/outer pipe as long as possible so it will pull the bad water from the lower portion of the water column.

i have used a 4 inch secondary pipe that runs straight thru on both ponds. a 4 inch pipe will move a lot of water when you get ready to drain it.


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I'm not an expert about this. IMO - A deeper draw pipe system will allow you to manually open and close the 'drain' to adjust the flow to your needs. Not owning the down stream ponds makes the situation somewhat of a liability.


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Thanks everyone. I'm getting good info but also getting more stuff to think about. I have a feeling my pond builder is going to hate me.

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We have 8" siphons on a couple ponds. If you don't have to worry about freezing, the automatic one is a great system.

http://www.ponddampiping.com/syphon1.html

One advantage of the ones we have with a valve is that you can start them in advance of a big storm to help prevent possible overflow. A disadvantage is you'll lie awake nights during big storms wondering if you should have started the siphon or you'll drain down in anticipation of a storm that doesn't materialize.


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One caveat with any pipe through the dam... Make sure you use plenty of anti seep collars, pack dirt around pipe until can't do more, and ensure plenty of fill above as it will settle.


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I saw your response about Siphons. I looked at your diagram. Is the 4' discharge pipe a mandatory requirement? what if you can't place the discharge that low will the siphon still work?

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Originally Posted By: Mike Shaw
I saw your response about Siphons. I looked at your diagram. Is the 4' discharge pipe a mandatory requirement? what if you can't place the discharge that low will the siphon still work?


Hi - thought I’d chime in. We’ve installed several siphons where the outlet was within a foot or so of the inlet. Everything seemed to function fine. What is driving the flow is the difference between the pool elevation in the pond and the outlet pipe elevation. All else equal, the larger difference between those two, the more the pipe will flow when in siphon mode.

Good luck!

Last edited by Hogfan; 08/15/18 08:17 PM.

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