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#462986 01/31/17 02:07 PM
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Ok, here goes nothing…


I purchased the land about 3 months ago and I’ll be putting a house on it in a year or two. The pond is about 1.75 acres according to google acreage calculator, and I am looking to make some modifications to its depth for sure, and possibly expanding it.


According to Google Earth (highly recommended to see the history of your land) there was work done on it between 2010 and Feb of 2012, which included digging some dirt out and adding rock to the dam. It looks like the concrete spillway was added in 2012 as well. Every image has it holding water since 2010, and only dry once since 2002.


July 2010:




Feb 2012:




Feb 2013:




March 2014:




July 2015:





The pond to the south had the same type of work done at the same time.


There are over a dozen trees on the water side of the dam that have been there since 2002. I understand the risks of these trees and will need to make a decision: keep them and trim them, or remove the entire dam and start over. I need to identify each tree and act accordingly if I don’t remove it all.


There is some erosion on the east side of the dam from this past summer. We were in a flood warnings atleast 4-5 times this year (which is not normal). I am assuming that the concrete drain was clogged and couldnt handle the flow. I definitely need to clean it out.





I had the local conservation biologist come out and walk the land. He sent me a ton of info on the soil composition and properties, topographical map, drainage area, and some quail brochures.

























Last edited by blavis; 08/01/17 12:09 PM.
blavis #462987 01/31/17 02:11 PM
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I am going to get some depth readings this Sunday and adding more photos. I just wanted to start this thread so I can get the information out there ASAP.

rocks on dam:



looking east:



Video of outlet right after I unplugged the 4" pvc pipe. The Concrete Culvert is 48" and there is an 18" pipe that goes under the dam.

https://youtu.be/UcaN6taK1SQ


GSF:





I probably caught a dozen or so. Ranging from 1/2" to 2".


Last edited by blavis; 01/31/17 02:14 PM.
blavis #462991 01/31/17 02:42 PM
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Welcome and good info to start with. GSF and a BG.
















blavis #463010 01/31/17 08:10 PM
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Welcome to the forum.

This is just my "first impression" and may not be the best way to proceed, but here goes.

I would leave the current pond pretty much as is with minor maintenence done to the dam and spillway as needed. Leave the biggest trees for shade and remove the rest.

Then I would take all the money you intended on spending to renovate this pond and use it to build a new pond directly above this one in the watershed. If this pond gets too much runoff you could even design the new pond to accomodate what watershed is recomended for your annual rainfall. The NRCS should be able to help with this.

You will spend about the same or even less building a new pond as you will cleaning out the old. It looks like you have plenty of land and watershed to work with. A new pond has a lot of advantages over trying to rework an old one. And an old second pond works wonderful as a "trash fish" pond. The place where you can put excess fish from your main pond for a pond that is easy for kids to catch a fish almost every cast.

You could build your house pad at the same time you are excavating the new pond so the site will be settled and ready to build when you are. A new pond you have complete control over features, construction technique, and you will know the integrity of the dam. While the new pond is coming up to speed with stocking, you will have the old pond to fish. If the old pond dam some day fails because of the trees, by then your new pond will be up to speed and you can determine then to refurbish it with a cleanout and new dam or just fill it in.

That is the way I would approach it if it were my property. I've built 4 and rebuilt one pond on my home property. You can't have too many ponds. Two is better than one. I have also cleaned out two old ponds for my kids, and I'll tell you, building new is a whole lot less work and mess.

Links to my pond building experiences.

A pond dedicated to RES

Building a mini forage pond

Building a sediment pond

Reclaiming a 50 year old pond

My main pond I don't have many build pictures of my main pond because did not find PBF till the pond mainly was finished.

Last edited by snrub; 01/31/17 08:39 PM.

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blavis #463316 02/06/17 02:19 PM
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Well, I went out yesterday and found out it isn't nearly as deep as I wanted or expected. the deepest area was around 6.5 feet. I would bet that over 50% of the pond is in the 2-4 feet range. I'll create a map and post it soon on the depths.

While we were out we caught three LMB! Obviously this pond was stocked a few years ago when it was dug out and worked on. I am still trying to get ahold of the previous owner.


The first two were a little thin. But the third one was nice and full.

Thoughts?


Attached Images
bass1aa.jpg bass1bb.jpg bass2bb.jpg bass2a.jpg bass3aa.jpg bass3bb.jpg
Last edited by blavis; 02/06/17 02:23 PM.
blavis #463323 02/06/17 05:24 PM
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May be facing an imbalanced fishery leading to overpopulation of skinny, under performing LMB. If you are not going to perform rehab on the pond you can address this dynamic by improving cover for BG and boost the available forage and cull all LMB in the bottlenecked range that are not performing. If you are planning on pond rehab you'll be starting over from scratch so you don't have to worry about the current status of your fishery.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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blavis #463332 02/06/17 08:39 PM
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I finally was able to contact the previous owner! After they dug it out in 2011, the did NOT stock it and she was under the assumption that there were no fish in it until I told her today.

That does change things on my end. I was going to have a hard time doing work on a pond if it was stocked, if it didn't leak and if it was deep enough to prevent a winterkill.

There are two ponds to my north that drain into my BOW and I'm assuming that is where the fish came from.

Also, the 4" PVC pipe that drains into the 48" culvert drain is as loose as a goose. I can easily, from the boat, rotate it. I didn't play with it very much. If it were to pop loose I would lose about 2 feet of water very quickly.

I did get the name of the construction company that dug it out in 2011 and I will be giving him a call tomorrow to consult.

I'll be posting more pics in the next few days as well.

Thanks for the replies so far. I am definitely going to add a silt pond to my north no matter what I do to this current pond. :-)

Cheers!

blavis #463342 02/07/17 12:54 AM
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Building several wing dikes in the feeder creek may be less expensive than a catch pond and will control silt well. I'd request a quote both ways before committing. Wing dikes are easier to dredge every few years than a catch pond is, just make the dikes wide enough for a backhoe or excavator to sit upon.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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teehjaeh57 #463346 02/07/17 08:18 AM
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Do wing dykes control sediment in the stream channel or in the pond below the stream? I understood they kept the main stream channel from filling by increasing the water velocity so sediment would not accumulate in the channel. Does this faster-moving water carry more sediment downstream?

blavis #463387 02/07/17 01:56 PM
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On Thursday I am meeting the guy who previously dug it out. I'll bring up the wing dyke concept. I am going to try and get as many different options covered while we are out there.

I am going to google wing dykes, but if someone has some literature on it, could you please post it here.

Thanks.

blavis #463395 02/07/17 02:56 PM
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Wing dikes on a river function much differently than one on a smaller course of water. In a river they force water into the main channel helping prevent sediment from accumulating. In a 15' wide creek a series of dikes can be make on opposite banks that extend 10' to middle of channel - the idea is the slow the water down so the particulate can sink and accumulate behind the wing dykes and not flow into the pond. Every few years one can excavate the accumulated silt on the front side of the dikes and restore the depth pretty simply. The main advantage of wing dikes is they are likely cheaper to build than a catch pond [pushing clay into a berm and installing riprap - don't need to worry about clay liner/leaks, no spilway installation] and are easier to excavate than a catch pond which would require draining and drying [the latter of which may never happen due to rains]. This is how it was explained to me by an engineer some years back. Every situation is different obviously but wing dikes upstream of a pond and wing dikes on a river seem to be designed for different purposes.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

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blavis #463452 02/08/17 09:39 AM
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Attached below is a rough idea of what I think y'all are talking about doing for some wing dykes.

The red lines indicate the wings and the green one indicates an actual crossing for my truck. I'll be removing some of the trees either for the wings or an actual silt pond.

The only access I have to the back side of the property is over the dam. In my eyes that is a no-go. So I'll be adding a route on the North side either way. Why not now?

How many wings are needed?

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silt dykes and bridge.jpg
Last edited by blavis; 02/08/17 09:39 AM.
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Last client I worked with on pond design installed these as his watershed consisted of 100 acres of crops and during heavy rains it was very turbid runoff. Pond contractor installed 4 dikes across 50% of the creek width about 20 ft apart, so two on each side. I'm no engineer but the contractor was confident it would be sufficient. When consulting with your contractor see what he recommends in terms of the number and distance between them. I think 2-4 would be sufficient.

From your overhead it appears there exists another drainage down the tree line straight from a feedlot upstream. If that is another course of water I would consider something to slow that potentially high nutrient ag runoff water from entering pond directly...small berm with cattails create a wetland maybe to help slow water down and strip some nutrient levels before dumping into your pond.


Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after. ~ Henry David Thoreau

[Linked Image from i1261.photobucket.com]


blavis #463491 02/08/17 06:35 PM
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Question how did you get the history pictures on Google earth

blavis #463494 02/08/17 07:09 PM
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Click on the "Show Historical Imagery" tab at the top, thn move the slider to show older images on Google Earth.

blavis #463498 02/08/17 08:07 PM
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Thanks that should be interesting for my property

blavis #463514 02/09/17 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted By: blavis
I finally was able to contact the previous owner! After they dug it out in 2011, the did NOT stock it and she was under the assumption that there were no fish in it until I told her today.

That does change things on my end. I was going to have a hard time doing work on a pond if it was stocked, if it didn't leak and if it was deep enough to prevent a winterkill.

There are two ponds to my north that drain into my BOW and I'm assuming that is where the fish came from.

Also, the 4" PVC pipe that drains into the 48" culvert drain is as loose as a goose. I can easily, from the boat, rotate it. I didn't play with it very much. If it were to pop loose I would lose about 2 feet of water very quickly.

I did get the name of the construction company that dug it out in 2011 and I will be giving him a call tomorrow to consult.

I'll be posting more pics in the next few days as well.

Thanks for the replies so far. I am definitely going to add a silt pond to my north no matter what I do to this current pond. :-)

Cheers!


Watershed control ponds are ponds with tall dams but a very low full pool setting and a small overflow pipe. The idea behind them is to hold large volumes of water behind the dam only temporarily while the water flows out the small overflow pipe to meter the water out slowly. They use them for flood control in a watershed district. But you could use a similar idea with dikes with them holding back the water temporarily upstream while metering it out slowly to your pond.

But consider the cost of anything you do compared to building a complete new pond. My suggestion is still build a new pond somewhere above the current one with either a sediment pond above it or changing the total watershed flowing into it (which would not be as hard as it first seems) to limit sedimentation.

By changing the inflow, you could also eliminate fish contaminatiin from above ponds. A definite positive.

Last edited by snrub; 02/09/17 08:53 AM.

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As an example, imagine a new pond situated on your picture between the current pond and the position where the number 14 is (next to the last satelite picture in the series). The dam would run paralell to the creek behind it (so no creek water would enter this new pond). Notice this would take the water source for the pond completely out of the stream source and out of the way of fish coming down stream. No more fish contamination problems.

Now notice that in the field pictured to the right in your pictures it is terraced. But there appears to be no waterway. It appears the terrace dumps out into your pasture (they do not do that much any more but common earlier). This is to your advantage if you need watershed for a pond. Simply continue this terrace to your new pond location if needed, or depending on the lay of the land, the water might already end up there. If more watershed is needed create a terrace paralell to the existing creek to the NE to gather more water for the pond. Maybe even from not only the north but to the SE if needed and depending on the lay of the land.

That may or may not be enough watershed. In SE Ks it would be more than enough likely but I know you get lots less rain. The NRCS has all the records and recomendations for what size watershed you need for a pond. Too much watershed and you get lots of flowthrough and maybe sedimentation problems. Not enouh and water levels drop too much between significant rains. NRCS has the data needed to figure out optimum watershed size.

More is not always better. It can lead to dam failure or excessive construction costs to handle the high water flow rates over the overflow. Water coming from ponds above that are already stocked is always problematic.

Not trying to tell you what to do with your property. Only trying to give you ideas of options you may not have considered.

Check out my new RES pond where I use terraces to modify where my water comes from and how much. Here is the same link as above. Look towards the end of the thread.

RES pond



Last edited by snrub; 02/09/17 10:07 AM.

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I have had one guy come out so far to talk strategy. I still need to make up my mind on how I want to do it before he starts throwing numbers at me.

He thinks we could raise the dam 2-3 feet to increase the size without having to do much digging to expand. I am, however, worried about depth. So we will still have to make 25-30% of it 10 feet. At least that is what I have read. Is that correct?

The only issue I foresee with raising the dam is the trees on it being under a foot or more of water. The builder said he has been doing this 20 years and has never had an issue with trees(alive or dead) on dams.

I am working on getting at least three more builders out there to give their opinion and prices.

Also, building a pond the west side of that tree line is a no-go. That is where the house is going to be. I do appreciate the ideas tho. Keep em coming!

Thanks

blavis #470891 04/30/17 08:58 PM
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Good evening ya'll.

I have been busy planning my house build as well as tossing around the idea of expanding my pond. So it has been a while since an update.

On saturday, I received a call from a friend that seemed to be good to be true. He was asked if there was anybody he knew that wanted to get rid of some dirt for a large construction project (that happens to be 5 miles away from my land). In return, I would get a free pond and a gravel road which runs about 450 feet put in on my land.

He needs 125,000 cubic meters of dirt, which is a huge amount. 500ftx500ft square going 20 ft deep is the amount he needs. I may not be able to give him it all, but I am the closest source for his so far. He puts his bid in tomorrow and he'll know soon if he gets the job or not. This is a company that has been in KS since 1925 and has done hundreds of large jobs in the area.

So, if he wins the bid and uses me, I am going to expand my pond by a ridiculous amount.

I plan on going 3:1 ratio for the first 12 feet and then 2:1 down to the deepest part. Is there a problem with going too deep? I don't think I'll want anything more than 20ft. Not sure why though...

Yes, I plan on aerating the shit out of it. The correct way, with the proper equipment. I have the extra money now since I wont be paying to move dirt.

Does anybody have possible concerns or issues that I should be aware of?

Thanks and Cheers!

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Only concern is that while excavating dirt from a hole, you may not achieve a well-lined and sealed pond. What happens if sand or rock is hit? Do you suddenly have a large expense for bringing in extra equipment to compact the basin or if needed, a dam?

Just some thoughts of what could go wrong. However, take advantage of it! I would be the first in line.

blavis #477418 08/01/17 12:17 PM
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Well, it has been a few months but they are going to start excavating this week. They are going to be taking out about 40,000 cubic yards of clay, and then putting the top soil back on top. should be between 12-14 feet for 50% of the pond. Maybe even 75%.

I am working on an outline of the new pond and putting together a list of questions for y'all before they drain the pond on Friday.

What I need to confirm ASAP is the slope. Would a 3:1 slope to a depth of atleast 10ft all the way around the pond be ideal?

Or should change the slope to be more steep after 6ft of depth?

They are going to be putting the plans in CAD and sending me a PDF tomorrow. I've told them 3:1 slope for now. Hopefully I was correct.

Thanks

blavis #477422 08/01/17 01:56 PM
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As with all things pond related, 'it depends'. Having a fairly steep drop off on the pond margins limits the areas shallow enough to have adequate sunlight penetration for plant growth. This means less 'weeds', depending on how you define that. The tradeoff will be in cover loss (less plants means less cover for small fish and creatures that form the food chain); also, spawning areas may be less than ideal for some species of fish. So....it depends.


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blavis #477437 08/01/17 06:41 PM
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I am not familiar with the soils in the Wichita are enough to say, but around me it would be fine. We have a number of "borrow pits" along different highways and railroad overpasses that have seemed to fill and hold water just fine.

But we have a clay based subsoil. If you have very sandy soil or rock veins or other problems where the water could leak out then it might not work well. If your soils will not hold water easily you might need proper compaction of the bottom and sides.

You could make that part of the deal. That they compact the final hole with either a sheeps foot roller or rubber tires scrapers or loaded haul trucks. If you have concerns of it not holding water. Do you have any borrow pits along raised roads in your area? Do they hold water well? That might at least give you an idea.

As far as going steeper than 3:1, you need clay or some type soil that will not slough off easily. Otherwise over time the sides will slough off of the steep part and make some of the less steep part more steep. Also steeper than 3:1 makes it either very difficult or impossible to properly compact the pond bottom. If it were me, unless I knew specifically that my soils would stand up to steeper and hold water, I would stay at 3:1.

No expert, those are just the things I would consider if it were mine.

Last edited by snrub; 08/01/17 06:42 PM.

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They dug a test hole on Sunday. The clay based subsoil started to show some shale at about 14 feet. So they will stay out of that range. probably stay in the 10-12 ft. which gives me 12-14 feet of water.

I am going to have a local pond builder come out and do the finishing touches on it. Create some mounds, valleys, drop offs, flat areas.

Should i be putting the top soil back ontop of the clay after they are done? Or just put the top soil back along the edges that I want grass/vegetation?

I'll see if they have a sheeps foot available to pack it all in after they are done. Thats a really good idea sir. Thanks.

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