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This is only early July, but it feels like this is the warmest my pond has been since built 4+ years ago. So 2 questions.
What’s too warm for a SMB / YP pond? I am not fishing because the water seems warm.

More important. Where do I get the temp? Two feet down and we are still pretty cold. I’m going to take the digital thermometer down later today and want to get a reading. Do I get it right along the bank? On the surface? How far out and how deep?
I’m sure this info is here on the forum, but a quick search wasn’t revealing much. (Could be my search skills). Trying to get specific to SMB and YP.

Edit. This is the darkest the water has been also. Least amount of visibility. About 12”. I would imagine that contributes to higher temps. As the dark is absorbing more heat.

Thanks,
Jeff

Last edited by SetterGuy; 07/08/19 03:15 PM.

9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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I believe that when one talks generally about "water temperature" of their BOW...they are talking about the temperature 18" down from the surface and out in the BOW away from the bank.

I was just reading this published by Purina...

https://www.purinamills.com/fish-and-aqu...-a-healthy-pond

It states..."Cool-water ponds (in the 65° F - 75° F range) may, depending on the size of the pond, support smallmouth bass or walleye."

I am sure that the temp envelope can be pushed...depending.

You will want to get measurements that paint the whole picture, so get a temp at the top 6 inches, one at 18" and one from the bottom. This will, at least give you the range that the fish have available. If your feeling spunky, get a reading at every foot and this will tell you where your thermocline is. Can you get out to the deeper parts of your pond? If so, go to the deepest part or at least a decent ways from the bank. If not, a cheap pool thermometer, heavy fishing pole, and bobber can (setting the bobber for different depths).

I'm not sure about the effects of clarity on temperatures. I can see your point about darker water absorbing heat, but darker water also shades the depths too. Low clarity may make the upper water warmer and the deeper water cooler...I'd like to know too.

Last edited by Quarter Acre; 07/08/19 03:36 PM. Reason: simple typo

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Like QA stated regarding dark water. It will definitely get a lot warmer near the surface and closer to the shoreline, but it will also insulate that heat from deeper water by absorbing the UV Ray's before they can penetrate deeper.

This change in temp is where your thermocline will begin to develop. That cooler area, as long as it has sufficient DO, and remains cool enough for SMB/YP is where your fish will want to be, and even DO becomes secondary to temperature (just read that in my latest issue of Pond Boss Magazine), as long as there is enough DO in that warmer water for them to access then return to the temps they want to be in. You should have enough DO shallow if 1) You have enough vegetation/plankton to create it during the day, and 2) you get enough wind action to keep it stirred up on the surface. Herein lies the problem. As temps continue to rise, that area of cooler water continues to get smaller and eventually warms to a point that it doesnt hold as much DO, and night time resperation converts oxygen into carbon dioxide and could create an early morning deficiency in oxygen if your biomass is large enough to use it all up before the DO cycle restarts the next morning.

Depending on the size and depth of your pond, you may be fine to go without some form of circulation to create more DO, but you may want to research some kind of aeration. But then there's another balancing act....not over circulating the pond so that you make it all too warm.

I'm not sure about YP, but I think SMB thrive in waters in the mid 70s.

Last edited by Mike Whatley; 07/08/19 04:40 PM.

.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Thanks to you both! I have a small rowboat at the pond. I’ll head down now to get some temps. I’m limited by my digital temp gauge. It only has a 5’ wire to the sensor. So that’s as deep as I can read. I’ll post back with temps.
Thanks again.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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I would take the temperature at the 5ft level ability of your temp meter. Since you are not aerating then natural circulation and mixing will be usually down to 5 or 6ft. Ideally since your temp depth limit is 5 ft then take a reading every foot. This will give a pretty good idea about natural mixing depth in your non-aerated pond.

Do not be concerned about the warm water and the SMB. They can easily tolerate water in the low 90F range. It is the dissolved oxygen that the SMB need and not so much the cooler water, although cooler water holds more DO (higher DO at saturation when cooler). However your largest YP will start to be temperature stressed at around 83-85F. This temp is where my largest YP stop feeding and I begin to see the occasional death of the largest perch. They tolerate heat a lot less than the SMB. If you feed the YP-SMB pellets the surface feeding activity of the larger ones will indicate how well they are "doing" in the warm water temperature.

Last edited by Bill Cody; 07/08/19 06:31 PM.

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88 at the surface, 83 2.5’ down, and 77 at 5’ deep. Checked several spots. Wish I could go deeper. I’m just not sure where the thermocline is.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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Originally Posted By: Bill Cody
I would take the temperature at the 5ft level ability of your temp meter. Since you are not aerating then natural circulation and mixing will be usually down to 5 or 6ft. Ideally since your temp depth limit is 5 ft then take a reading every foot. This will give a pretty good idea about natural mixing depth in your non-aerated pond.

Do not be concerned about the warm water and the SMB. They can easily tolerate water in the low 90F range. It is the dissolved oxygen that the SMB need and not so much the cooler water, although cooler water holds more DO (higher DO at saturation when cooler). However your largest YP will start to be temperature stressed at around 83-85F. This temp is where my largest YP stop feeding and I begin to see the occasional death of the largest perch. They tolerate heat a lot less than the SMB. If you feed the YP-SMB pellets the surface feeding activity of the larger ones will indicate how well they are "doing" in the warm water temperature.


Thanks Bill. I’ll be down at the pond at dawn and see how the feeding is going. I guess I should look at getting a DO meter also.

Edit. Are you saying 83-85 at 5’ or at the surface?
Thx

Last edited by SetterGuy; 07/08/19 08:53 PM.

9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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Originally Posted By: Mike Whatley
I'm not sure about YP, but I think SMB thrive in waters in the mid 70s.

Originally Posted By: http://www.ksuaquaculture.org/Species/Perch,Yellow.htm
A recent study at Kentucky State University demonstrated that the optimum temperature for growth of yellow perch to be 75 degrees F, closely matching summer (June-October) water temperatures in ponds in Kentucky.

Last edited by saint_abyssal; 07/08/19 09:27 PM.
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Best growth for smb is 80-83 from the research I can confirm data on. This falls right in line with Bill Cody's suggestions of smb doing quite well in warm water and I believe he states about the same numbers, possibly even up to 86 if I remember correctly but again, "it all depends"..
Water quality is very important for either of these 2 to truly prosper.

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I don’t know why my water seems a lot warmer this year than the last several. I swim in it every time I’m here, pretty much from Memorial Day to the end of mowing season. It’s always been a lot cooler than nearby lakes. Not this year.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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For 83F to 85F for temperature stressed old biggest YP would be when that water is the coolest water with DO that they can find. Just because your water is too warm at the surface does not mean the fish cannot find cooler water somewhere in the pond; usually the deeper water. When bottom water that has some DO is 85F+ the biggest YP are stressed. Young YP can tolerate 90F water. YP will tolerate 2 to 1mg/L(ppm) DO, however the older the fish are I think the more they become stress with warmer temperature and low DO.

From your temperature data your thermocline is somewhere between 2.5ft and 5 ft. Temperature readings at 1 ft intervals will more closely pin point the depth.


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You can get a cheap floating pool thermometer and attach it to a string so you can adjust the depth and check temps every foot or so from top to bottom. About a 60 second soak for each depth. That will allow you to find out what your deepest temps are with minimal cost. I use a railroad spike, loop knotted to the depth I want to check and let the thermometer float above it. Use black trotline string.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Temps this morning were 87 at the surface. 83 at 2.5’, and 77 at 5’. I’ll look for a pool thermometer. Seems like my temps are ok, even though they seem warmer than usual.
I’ll continue to watch them. My pond is surrounded by trees on three sides. There is always shade on the water somewhere. It’s a noticeable temperature drop in the water that’s in the shade.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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Sounds like you're still in pretty good shape as long as you've got good DO saturation. Luckily, at those temps, the water should be able to retain a very good DO level. You'll probably find temps in the deepest part of the pond are still much cooler, even down right cold.

When you get set up to check temps all the way down, take notes of the temps at each foot. That level where you see the greatest change in temp is (and it may only be 2 or 3 degrees change) where your "dead water" begins. Without getting too technical, your water column is basically divided into three sections. The surface and middle section are good water for your fish, from a DO/temp perspective. If you know how big the deepest area is, taking into account where that biggest change in temp occurs, you can subtract that area of water from the gross volume, telling you how much good water you have in the pond.

A pond without aeration, when stratified, ultimately deletes water that is useful to your fish, which also dictates what the pond's carrying capacity is. Hypothetically speaking, if the pond has 1 million gallons of water in it, but 250k of it is dead water, you only have 750k gallons of good water, thus reducing the pond's potential gross capacity.

Another thing to consider is that without DO in those greater depths, all of the detritus that settles in that area will become muck, because the useful bacteria that eat it cant survive down there without oxygen. That area will be the first to fill in as nature does what it does.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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Thanks Mike. I used to go down to the bottom to try and judge muck levels. Now I work around the pond in about 5’ of water. Not much muck in the zone from the bank out to 5’. The water at about 8’ is very cold! I haven’t been down below 10’ in a while.
I was going to aerate, but it’s just too expensive to run it the 900’ from the barn, or go solar.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
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If you were going to run power from the barn to the pond, 900 ft would definitely get expensive. Depending on your location, running a cheap irrigation line as your air feed, then switching to a sinking line at the pond to your diffusers is not nearly as expensive. The pump could stay in the barn and push air that distance easily. You would only have to dig a shallow trench to bury the feed line in. Since it's not carrying water, allowing that you avoided any dips throughout the run where condensation could accumulate, it wouldnt freeze.


.10 surface acre pond, 10.5 foot deep. SW LA. The epitome of a mutt pond. BG, LMB, GSF, RES, BH, Warmouth, Longear Sunfish, Gambusia,Mud Minnows, Crappie, and now shiners!!...I subscribe!!
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In Missouri you don't need to run your aerator from November to mid April so a freezing airline is not an issue.


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The problem I have with running an air line is a very deep ravine between the barn and the pond. 20 to 30’ deep, and through the woods. I was thinking condensation would build up in the ravine, with no way to get it out. Would the compressor have enough power to blow it out every spring?
That and our bedroom is adjacent to the place in the barn where the compressor would be. I think I could get used to it, but my wife is a very light sleeper. Unless I could shut it off for the few nights per summer where she’s there? Is it ok to “not” run it for a few nights here and there during the summer?


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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This is what I use to get water temp, it gives you the surface temp them the temp at 5 foot intervals. There is also a different setting where it gives you the bottom temp and depth.

https://fishhawkelectronics.com/shop/fish-hawk-td/

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Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
I was thinking condensation would build up in the ravine, with no way to get it out.


Easy enough to add a bleeder by plumbing in a Tee fitting with a stop valve hanging off the side of the Tee at the low spot in the air line.

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Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
I was thinking condensation would build up in the ravine, with no way to get it out. Would the compressor have enough power to blow it out every spring?


If the condensation were to build up substantially, you could see 15 psi of back pressure given your dip under a 30 foot deep ravine. The pump wold have to have that available to push it out. And it would also have to have the flow (CFM) at that pressure to push it out quickly or the water would run back down the line and have to evaporate out. The real question is how much water would accumulate in the line...that I can't guess, but...

I would hate to dig under that size of a ravine and successfully keep the line from washing back out and exposing the line at the bottom. I envision running the air line to the ravine, surfacing and running some steel pipe across the ravine, and then back under ground to the pond. A couple hedge posts on each side configured like the end of a fence at a gate (with the cross brace), along with a cable stretched over the ravine would give you the support. Then. weld some hooks on the steel pipe periodically to catch the cable, fasten the pipe to the fence posts and your set.

Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
Is it ok to “not” run it for a few nights here and there during the summer?


I bet skipping a couple nights every now and again would be fine. I would be concerned to skip more than 3 nights in a row, especially in the heat of the summer. Maybe someone knows how quickly a pond can re-thermocline?


Fish on!,
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Originally Posted By: Augie
Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
I was thinking condensation would build up in the ravine, with no way to get it out.


Easy enough to add a bleeder by plumbing in a Tee fitting with a stop valve hanging off the side of the Tee at the low spot in the air line.


Wouldn’t it be 18” below ground? Can still be bled? Not sure how that would work.
Thx


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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Originally Posted By: Quarter Acre
Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
I was thinking condensation would build up in the ravine, with no way to get it out. Would the compressor have enough power to blow it out every spring?


I would hate to dig under that size of a ravine and successfully keep the line from washing back out and exposing the line at the bottom. I envision running the air line to the ravine, surfacing and running some steel pipe across the ravine, and then back under ground to the pond. A couple hedge posts on each side configured like the end of a fence at a gate (with the cross brace), along with a cable stretched over the ravine would give you the support. Then. weld some hooks on the steel pipe periodically to catch the cable, fasten the pipe to the fence posts and your set.

Originally Posted By: SetterGuy
Is it ok to “not” run it for a few nights here and there during the summer?


I bet skipping a couple nights every now and again would be fine. I would be concerned to skip more than 3 nights in a row, especially in the heat of the summer. Maybe someone knows how quickly a pond can re-thermocline?


Thanks! Actually I might be able to go with an elevated pipe across the ravine. With that in place, it’s pretty level, to almost a gentle downhill slope running to the pond.
Thanks!
Interesting to know about shutting it off. We do leave electrical on when we are away. I shut off water, but leave elec on. I could probably get by with 2 diffusers on a 1 ac pond. It’s kind of square. Pretty uniform depth throughout.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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Come to think about it a bit more...one could just trench to the ravine and away from it and span the ravine with the steel pipe and cable support using concrete (eventually buried) at both sides to secure the ends of the pipe and cable; skipping the extra elevation and fence posts.

Two diffusers would turn your pond over approximately twice in a day running continuously, but night-time only running is pretty much a sure thing in the summer months. I would consider using 4 diffusers to ensure that "one turn over per day" should you find yourself only running 9 hours at night (my current schedule).


Fish on!,
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Thanks! This makes it a lot more “budgetable!” Time to rethink aeration.


9 yr old pond, 1 ac, 15' deep.
RES, YP, GS, FHM (no longer), HBG (going away), SMB, and HSB (only one seen in 5 yrs) Restocked HSB (2020) Have seen one of these.
I think that's about all I should put in my little pond.
Otter attack in 2023
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