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Fascinating discussion between Supreme Pondmeister Bob Lusk and Shawn (? last name) of American Sportfisheries on the FB broadcast yesterday.

They agreed that the female only concept sounds good in theory, but practice is something else. As Bob put it, LMB were meant to reproduce. When that doesn't happen, there are consequences.

Shawn recounted the time when he checked out a lake of female only Florida LMB. To his surprise, all the oldest bass were tightly clustered around 9 to 9.5 lb in size, nothing larger. Apparently bass are motivated to eat & grow in order to have a better shot of reproducing, but when that isn't possible they just stop growing at a certain point.

Interesting stuff I haven't heard anywhere else. I've considered building another smaller pond with female only LMB, but this info makes me think twice!

Last edited by anthropic; 06/21/18 10:17 PM.

7ac 2015 CNBG RES FHM 2016 TP FLMB 2017 NLMB GSH L 2018 TP & 70 HSB PK 2019 TP RBT 2020 TFS TP 25 HSB 250 F1,L,RBT -206 2021 TFS TP GSH L,-312 2022 GSH TP CR TFS RBT -234, 2023 BG TP TFS NLMB, -160




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Heck, if I could grow 9 pound bass, I probably wouldn't have to think twice about it. I doubt that I've ever done it.


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Originally Posted By: anthropic

Shawn recounted the time when he checked out a lake of female only Florida LMB. To his surprise, all the oldest bass were tightly clustered around 9 to 9.5 lb in size, nothing larger. Apparently bass are motivated to eat & grow in order to have a better shot of reproducing, but when that isn't possible they just stop growing at a certain point.


I would challenge Shawn's conjecture. One must first determine whether the number 1 most limiting factor was at play. Was forage the limiting factor? In ponds where reproduction occurs, the largest bass are generally smaller than 9 lbs and the primary cause that they stop growing is that the food is limited. Being able to reproduce doesn't help them grow any larger.

Swingle found that where there is abnormal overweight of BG that LMB may not be able to recruit. Under these conditions, LMB are able to grow 2lbs a year. Consider a 1 acre BOW where 10 Female LMB at 2 lbs each are stocked and have no mortality. There is no LMB reproduction and these fish in theory might achieve 10 lbs in 4 years. If the carrying capacity of the BOW is 100 lbs of LMB they could only grow heavier if you began to harvest them. The mortality would allow for further growth, but if they continued to live, they would get leaner and a little longer as time goes by ... but no heavier.

I am confident that if the referenced BOWs had successful recruitment, both average and ultimate weights would be less than noted.



Last edited by jpsdad; 06/22/18 10:06 AM.

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There is a lot of research available online in the public domain. Much of it is very old even going back decades. This research, even as old as it is, remains relevant in many ways. Alabama was a leader in understanding the relationship of LMB and BG and Swingle played a large role in this research. We are indebted to them for providing freely accessible research that in no small way transformed how small waters are managed today. When armed with this knowledge, one's perspective cannot help but be altered. I highly recommend any research you can find where Swingle contributed.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/22/18 10:47 AM.

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Swingle was a forerunner of much southern fisheries research. It was mostly to answer basic questions as they relate to raising fish during that time period. During that time most fisheries research was related to growing fish on farms for food. From it came the basic pond mgt guides made by public agencies which was done (by gov mandate) for food production purposes. That has gradually changed in recent times. While it is excellent info it is not always applicable to recreational fisheries. Many of the suggestions such as stocking rates have changed to stocking based on goals.

One recent study was done on a Ga lake stocked with just female LMB and forage. PB has had an article on it. LMB grew very well but at some point a male or 2 got in and - well you know. TX did a study for 17 years on Fla LMB in ponds. Lots of good data in it.
















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Eric, Yes fish production as food was a primary consideration as well as justification for the funding required. My study of his work gave me the impression that his primary focus in understanding initial stocking rates of LMB and BG was to determine optimum stocking rates that ensured balanced recruitment of LMB and BG avoiding overweight in either species. There are two out of balance conditions that Swingle may have advised all to avoid but these actually are of considerable interest from the recreational fishing perspective.

He may have been the first to document maximum growth rates of LMB in a pond setting and the conditions that are favorable for this growth. Bluegill size structure for this scenario is large overweight of intermediate size bluegill. Today, high initial stocking of BG are recommended when LMB growth is a goal. Even though Swingle wouldn't have recommended this stocking rate, we benefit from his research findings for our recreational goals. I think Swingle would tell us that this growth rate is not so much a function of the total weight of bluegill in the pond but rather that the sheer number of bluegill make most spawning attempts by LMB a complete failure. He documented complete recruitment failures under this scenario. With no competition and all the bluegill on the menu, LMB are free to grow where prey is not a limiting factor. Of course, eventually the LMB grow to size that fills the carrying capacity of the pond and growth would slow.

Here is another Female LMB study as reported by the Georgia DNR.
http://www.seafwa.org/Use%20of%20a%20Fem...-2016-03-01.pdf

In this paper you will find that they also introduced males accidentally. But what is remarkable is that it didn't have an adverse effect in one of the impoundments. Their explanation was:


Because we maintained high densities of numerous forage species through the study, predation on largemouth bass eggs or fry by these species may have been limiting factors in preventing or reducing bass recruitment


Later reading Swingle there was confirmation that BG can be quite limiting to LMB reproduction when large numbers of intermediate sized BG are present. One of the keys, I think, to the optimum Female only scenario is to be careful that LMB never quite reach the carrying capacity. If they do reach it they may inhibit the BG's ability to ruin the spawns of accidentally stocked males. Female only is a very capable strategy IMHO but I think it requires an understanding of the LMB carrying capacity to include a stocking and harvest regimen that does not stress that limit. The bigger the ultimate weight goal, the fewer the number of bass can be stocked. An excel spreadsheet with year class goals seems a pretty good starting place to strategize a stocking plan.

When I think of a BOW which is BG only and full of stunted 4-5 in bluegill ... I think female only strategy pond candidate. It wouldn't need to be killed out IMHO if a female only strategy were employed. Provided the largest bass are harvested before LMB reach carrying capacity, the BOW may also be able to withstand periodic accidental stocking of a male.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/22/18 04:21 PM.

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I have one of those ponds that lack LMB recruitment. I hardly fish for LMB so I don't know what I have other than what friends catch or what I catch while fishing for BG.

I guess I need to go "trash fish" fishing and catch some LMB to see what I have. grin

I am trying to grow out some LMB fingerlings in my sediment pond (no predators) to supplement stock LMB in my main pond so they will control the BG better.

I was shooting for a pan fish pond and looks like I am ending up with BG numbers more suitable for a large LMB pond.

Shucky darn.


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I thought I didn't have any LMB recruitment either until late this spring. I have lots! The LMB fingerlings are hard to see, but I found lots of 2.5 inch LMB in the spillway between the two ponds back in early May. Then, a couple of weeks later, I saw a huge school of 1" fish in my older pond, netted some and confirmed they were LMB.

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I was tossing a very small red spinner early yesterday morning and hung an approx. 12 lmb. It broke off in the knot which was my fault. This is the first lmb that I've seen in a couple of years.


It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.

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Originally Posted By: snrub

I am trying to grow out some LMB fingerlings in my sediment pond (no predators) to supplement stock LMB in my main pond so they will control the BG better.


I like this idea very much. Does your sediment pond just have FHM or does it also include BG?


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It had a fish kill about a year ago (because of my own negligence and stupidity)and all the fish with the exception of some very small BG, HBG (naturally produced in this pond) and GSF died. But there were a few small fish that survived. Any fish of any size either died or I used a dip net to catch them before they died and transferred them to my main pond (a good windy day blew them to the shore where they were easy to net as they were gasping for air on the surface) The pond has never had LMB.

So last fall I stocked 100 4-6" LMB to grow out, a hundred fingerling RES plus some larger ones from my forage pond, and a pound of FHM. I had thought all or nearly all the fish had been killed by the fish kill but by fishing it pretty hard this spring a few times have pulled out probably 30 or 40 CNBG, HBG and some GSF that were5-6" long. All were about the same size so I think some very small fish had survived the fish kill.

My main concerns now is that there are not many of the LMB left. I don't think any of the survival GSF would have been big enough to eat the 4-6" LMB last fall but those buggers are aggressive so not sure. So that is one worry. Could have had some winter kill. The other worry is we has a fit this spring with cormorants while the water was still cold and the fish sluggish. They were in this pond a few times before I got them run off. A flock of them about cleaned out my old refurbished one acre pond (I have 5 ponds total) so they may have got some of my fingerling bass in this pond too.

My reason for the above concern is I have been able to catch a half dozen LMB fairly easily. But I am not catching them anything like I think I should be able to with 100 fish in 1/10th acre. I took 3 out the other day and put in the main pond at about 10" but have not caught any since but have not tried too hard either. I would like to let them grow till about October hopefully about a foot long and transfer as many as I can catch and put in the main pond. I do not want to fish for them too much and make them hook shy but on the other hand also not sure I have many left. Too much FA in that pond to seine and FA and a cast do not get along well together at all.

Last edited by snrub; 06/23/18 01:33 PM.

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John,

Given the number of ponds that you have you might give consideration to a LMB "rookery". The standing weights of LMB only ponds can range between 60 and 100 lbs per acre. They can reproduce at 5 oz (~9") and if you fish it hard to ensure to that fish > 11" are always removed this scenario could produce many sizable LMB fingerlings annually (4" to 8"). Juvenile BG compete heavily with O-year LMB and significantly slow their growth and reduce survival. There is a good recent paper on this subject. The RW of your fingerlings will be good provided you harvest and transfer them frequently (or seine annually transferring all but those needed for reproduction). An LMB pond might provide a steady supply of LMB fingerlings to ensure your BG are controlled in your other ponds.

These past few posts are diverging from the context of the thread. I think it would be great if you might record your Trophy BG Management efforts in a thread in the "Evaluating and Adjusting Fish Populations" section.


Last edited by jpsdad; 06/24/18 08:56 AM.

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Interesting comments. I was not for sure where I would try to go with this sediment pond after LMB were once introduced. I figured at some point LMB would get in it anyway because during large water inflows they could easily swim up the emergency overflow from the main pond. I've watched small BG make the 10" jump up the elbow regular overflow pipe when the water flow was just right. I had several CC get in this sediment pond via high water flow rates before the fish kill because I caught some hook and line and dip netted a couple out during the fish kill.

I actually have a thread specifically for this sediment pond and I wish this part of the discussion was over there but that's the way these thread tangents go.

Last edited by snrub; 06/24/18 12:09 PM.

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I've glanced through those threads. The sediment pond is working well for its intended purpose. I can certainly understand how keeping it isolated from other fish would be problematic. You might not be able to implement the idea I mentioned there. LMB recruitment would probably be similar to what you are observing in your other BOWs.

There is more than one condition that results in intermediate sized bluegill predominance. One is low numbers of LMB below carrying capacity and high numbers of bluegill in high proportion to BG carrying capacity. This is the condition where LMB would grow fast, have high RWs, and is the population structure I earlier referred to.

The other situation is where there is a biomass overweight of large LMB and bluegill are below their carrying capacity. Here, YOY grow fast and attain >4 inches in the first year but are hammered all winter. So each year the cycle starts again where 2nd year BG, greatly reduced in number by winter feeding, carry the burden of BG reproduction. This situation would be characterized by large LMB (and perhaps large CC) that have less robust RW. I think this is the population structure my nearby public BOWs are experiencing. In these BOWS, I am beginning to think that large CC are more important to predator overweight than I had previously considered. I have recently observed them actively foraging BG in daylight. At night, I wonder if BG (and small LMB) have little defense against them.

For trophy BG, large numbers of <12" bass and an LMB biomass at carrying capacity is beneficial. This condition is characterized by low numbers of intermediate size BG. Large BG would also be of moderate number. Under this scenario, the BG YOY carry the load for the LMB biomass. Few survive to become intermediate which are also large enough to escape predation by most LMB. For one with Trophy BG aspirations, it is good news that Swingle reported this unbalanced condition is very persistent and difficult to undo by harvesting methods. Even so, it may take some effort, harvest, planning, supplemental stocking, to get a BOW congruent with this population structure. I am beginning to think that CC greatly complicate this scenario if they are allowed to achieve significant biomass as predators. They may be able to swing the balance to the large predator overweight described in the third paragraph.

Last edited by jpsdad; 06/24/18 04:09 PM.

It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so - Will Rogers



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