Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Bird leg fish transport

I have stayed out of this discussion over the PB years because this subject may be controversial, but a geologist thinks in geologic time, not in the nanosecond of man’s existence on earth.
There are many diverse methods of life development and population growth that geologic history records in the rocks.

Personally, I don’t rule out this possibility as well as other “natural” methods.
If this subject is controversial, please moderate.

George, I may be dense, but I don't see any controversy in that.

I thought we liked contrversy,as long as it wasnt political.As for the birds and the fish eggs goes,I' a very definate "maybe" or possibly"it all depends",I'm not quite sure yet.

Funny this topic has arisen. I was recently emailed this question from Dr. Robert Fulton, of Monroe, NC. He and I have established a friendship over the last few years and he tosses questions at me from time to time (and I do the same with him). Here's the answer I gave him. It will appear in Ask the Boss in July-August.

Geez, (He's known as the "River Geezer")
Well...I'll tell you. This is my 30th year as a professional fisheries biologist in the private sector. I have never seen, or otherwise been able to prove, that herons bring viable fish eggs to ponds to create a population of fish. I've not found any definitive studies which prove or disprove the theory, either. And, I've looked. I've wanted to simply believe this myth and go on with life, but my mind won't allow it. Too many times people make this statement to me as the truth. And since I'm in the bidness of knowing such things, I decided to put it to rest years ago, in my twenties. Still, though, I think about such things.
But, after years of wading in ponds, building them, draining them and studying things as fish eggs, fish behavior and fish recipes, I have grown to appreciate the fact that fish eggs are delicate, can't stand dry air, need oxygenated water, will suffocate in mud or silt and often need to be surrounded by siblings to enhance odds of survival. I can't believe that a bird can walk on a fish's nest, eggs stick to the leg, stay stuck to the leg as the bird flies, don't dry out and die along the flight, then the bird lands, the eggs unstick, find a hard substrate to continue their incubation and then hatch and create a population of fish. I would say the odds of all these things happening in favor of a fish are astronomical. If I were that egg, I would ask the bird to stop in and buy a lottery ticket as they fly over the local convenience store.
Do fish make their way into unstocked waters? Yep, they do. How? Beats me. I've seen sunfish in cattle hoofprints after a summer rain...500 yards from the nearest pond or stream...upstream or downstream. I have, once in my life, watched a great blue heron snatch a catfish fingerling out of one of my hatchery ponds, fly off with it, only to watch the six inch whiskerfish wriggle free and be dropped into the pond next to its home pond. I have seen herons catch my bluegill at Lusk Lodge, 2, some as long as 8 inches, take off and drop the fish in the dirt, yards from the pond, then circle, come back, land and eat it. I watch that process almost every week, with a cup of coffee from the patio as the fish feeder tosses its rich nuggets to our fish.
The only theory I truly believe, because I have seen it over and over, is that fish move when water moves...and usually the smallest fish take advantage of that opportunity. I've watched them move upstream from one pond to the next. What about ponds that sit alone in the watershed? Good thought, there, too. But, if that pond ever overflows, the water must go somewhere to another watershed...and when that happens, all a tiny, one inch sunfish needs is an inch of water depth and they will go...fast. Personally, I believe fish transfer themselves under their own power to stock a pond by swimming upstream in flowing water...unless someone's neighbor does them a "favor" and transfers a few fish into a new pond.
That's my story and I'm stickin' to it...unlike fish eggs to bird legs.

I says it's entirely plausible some fish eggs could stick on the bottom of a birds foot and be transported a short distance in the moist feet that are folded up. Eventually from body of water to body of water even at short distances the eggs could get transported farther and farther. Fish eggs are sticky for a short period of time. All the bird has to do is step in a nest.

Case in point: One of the biggest goldfish farms in the country here in Martinsville,Indiana has rare goldfish. The goldfish farm has hundreds of heron visitors. They've given up on controlling them. The rare gold fish are in ponds several miles away but were never planted by humans in those ponds.

Explanation?

They bought a lottery ticket.

Lottery tickets are cashed in for millions $'s every day and there are more fish eggs than people.....

I believe its time to give this matter the utmost consideration after reading Bobs post.I will make a beer run and ponder this the rest of the afternoon.Anybody else that feels this way is welcome to come over and help,I always have plenty of refreshments on hand.

Touche'. That's why Cecil's explanation makes sense.
I have seen no evidence anywhere, yet, that a bird has been the root stocking machine that begat the population of fish in a pond. While the "fish egg, bird leg" theory seems plausible to us, the evidence I have seen also suggests other, more practical, ways fish make it into a pond. I overwhelming believe that Nature stocks virgin ponds by fish swimming during flood events, while we are inside with a good book. All it takes is less than an hour for a fish to swim upstream as far as half a mile. That's a long way.

Hey George, I'll be calling you in a couple of weeks. I've decided to write a story about flyfishing our private ponds and will need your input. Interested?

Bob,

Just so there is no misunderstanding I posted before I saw your post but yours ended up first. So I am in no way trying to say I know more than you! You've forgotten more about fish than I will ever know.

However if there's one thing I've learned about nature with my small bit of experience: Never say never!


You know what someone should do? Next time they whack a heron (with a permit of course) save a leg and freeze it. Then get some bluegills to bed in a tank and either see if you can get the eggs to stick to the foot or remove them and place them inside the wet folded foot and see how long the eggs are viable.

One thing I'm sure we all know is trout eggs are shipped without water all the time. As long as they are kept cool and moist they will be fine for several days. Why couldn't a small percentage of eggs make it to stream or river and the subsequent offspring move from there?

What about ducks that fold there legs up into their still moist breast as they fly? This would protect the eggs in a wet layer of down from the wind speed as well as the outside air. Think of how many millions of birds there are in ponds at any given time and how much opportunity there would be for everything to come together for this to happen just right. It'd only need to be a 1/1,000,000 success rate for this to prove itself as a legitimate way for fish to be introduced to a waterbody. Probability tends to put people off, especially mathmatical thinkers, but everyday there are reminders that nature is not governed by probability and math. All I'm saying is you could spend 50 years studying this exact situation and never come close to replicating the sheer numbers we're talking about in nature.

I am highly complimented by your request and will be happy to help in any way I can.
More pond fly fishermen are coming out of the PB closet from time to time, and more qualified than I.
A fun and versatile way to fish our ponds.
Thanks.

My point exactly. Even if the odds are one in millions all it takes is a male and female egg...

BTW herons also fold their legs up next to their bodies when they fly don't they?

I've always seen them drag those long skinny legs out behind them in the air. looking at them in the air with the legs sticking out and crooked neck I wonder how they even fly...

This is one big reason I love our forum. We can all voice our thoughts and opinions. Then people come to their own conclusions. If we start looking at the math, none of it makes sense. Birds eat birds, birds eat insects and fish, insects and fish eat fish, fish eat insects and sometimes birds.
My main point is the improbability of an egg being successfully (meaning it doesn't dry out, get squished, or be otherwise destroyed) moved by a bird AND landing in a virgin pond AND landing in an environment where it can hatch AND then another one of the opposite sex go through the same process, then meet each other, make love and populate a pond.
I think that scenario certainly isn't impossible. I've seen Nature do some pretty weird things (Read the story about the guy whose pond was douched by Hurricane Ike). But, I believe that more than 99% of ponds "stocked" by Nature happened by fish swimming from one water body to another.
That's what I'm saying.

Hey Cecil, I knew you were typing at the same time I was. Just so happened my post beat yours by three minutes.

Carry on, Pond Boss Forum faithful! Bring on those deep thoughts and opinions, pepper them with facts and we'll all come to a healthy conclusion. It's our own spice of life.

Great Blue Heron, believed to be descendant of:
Pterodactyl Name's meaning: "Winged finger"Pronounciation: ter-u-Dak-til

Physical Description:
A Pterodactyl had a wingspan of anywhere between a few inches up to over 40 feet long. Pterodactyls are believed to have flown long distances using large wings and they had above average eyesight to help them catch their prey (and believed by prominent pondmeisters to carry fish eggs on their feet)
Paleontologist classify Pterodactyls as flying reptiles and not dinosaurs.

Young Earth Age:
Alive sometime in the last 6000 years.

Old Earth Age:
According to old earth scientists, Pterodactyls lived in the late Mesozoic period, about 251 to 65 million years ago

Diet:
It was a carnivore (meat eating creature).

Fossil locations:
Pterodactyl fossils have been found in America, Europe, Africa, and Australia.

Classification:
Pterosaurs

I think for the short distances Cecil speculates eggs being transported successfully, live fish transport is just as possible if not more likely.

1. I have seen a GBH catch a one poundish LMB, then fly to the other side of the pond. I enticed the GBH to drop the bass (unfortunately on dry land) and fly away. The fish flopped around for much of the time it took me (from a couple hundred yards away)it took me to make my way to him, but was beyond reviving when I got there. There were no marks on the bass.

2. We have had a couple of small (3" - 4") BG show up in our horse barn, 400 yards from our pond. I don't know if birds brought them; they didn't have any marks and no one fessed up to leaving them there. I really, really doubt they were brought by a human.

3. I have seen film of crows passing a small fish back & forth in flight, apparently for fun.

I think the odds of fish egg transport via birds is highly dependent on the species of fish. Goldfish eggs are much likely to be transported via birds than sunfish. Goldfish eggs are sticky by nature and stick to vegetation. They are scattered randomly about. Sunfish eggs are not nearly as sticky and are cared for by the parent. This IMO reduces the likelihood that they would be nearly as successful as say goldfish eggs in surviving transport via this method. So, some species are more likely than others to be transported via birds by their eggs but again, I think it is HIGHLY unlikely.

Fish being carried via a bird's mouth is a more plausible solution, particularly over short distances of less than a 1/4 mile or so... Almost everyone has seen a heron drop a fish they recently caught and sometimes after the heron has flown some distance. Some have even seen them drop them into adjacent bodies of water!

I personally think the human factor is the leading cause of fish introduction into new bodies of water. Either through accidental introduction(bait bucket release, fish stock contamination)or through intentional introduction (stocking of fish, neighbor's son put 5 bullhead in your pond without your knowledge).

Bob's point of fish using flood events to reach new bodies of water is spot on IMO. It is truly amazing how far up a TINY stream little green sunfish can go. Some species are better able to utilize flood events better than others. This doesn't usually pertain to colonization of a pond by fish, but the way fish spread from one drainage to another in most cases is referred to as stream capturing.

Stream capture, river capture, or stream piracy is a geomorphological phenomenon occurring when a stream or river drainage system or watershed is diverted from its own bed, and flows instead down the bed of a neighboring stream. Often times nothing of major significance as far as fish communities goes happens because this event occurs within the same drainage. However, every so often this occurs between adjacent yet separate drainages. This is when new fish species can colonize and new watershed. This can happen for several reasons, including:

1) Tectonic earth movements, where the slope of the land changes, and the stream is tipped out of its former course.
2) Natural damming, such as by a landslide or ice sheet.
3) Erosion, either
- Headward erosion of one stream valley upwards into another, or
- Lateral erosion of a meander through the higher ground dividing the adjacent streams.
- Within an area of karst topography, where streams may sink, or flow underground (a sinking or losing stream) and then reappear in a nearby stream valley.

Maybe we can have the Discovery Channel show 'Mythbusters' test this out for us?

There is a world of difference between geologic time events and how long it takes green sunfish to find their way into a newly created farm pond. I can see fish eggs being transported by adherence to birds as a long shot that could occur over millions, or even thousands of years, just as life formed from primordial ooze and evolved through unlikely recombinations of molecules billions of times. However, when you build a pond one summer and find GSF in it the next summer inexplicably, it seems to me that upstream migration best explains the presence of GSF. The observation of self stocking of ponds is not a rare event.

You forgot to factor in the possibility of JHAP migration.

Ok guys, I’m going to take y’all back a couple of generations to my grandpa’s dry flat land Texas farm where water came from a cistern, the closest creek was so far away they had to haul water in a barrel on a mule drawn sled, miles away during frequent Texas drought conditions.

Remember that population density was sparse more that 80 years ago, and aeration or fisheries biologists had not been invented.

How did the mud cats and “perch” get back in those tanks that would dry up every few years?
You will NEVER convince me that mankind stocked those fish or the fish crawled across those dry cracked parched Texas plains.

"Nature will find a way."

Jurassic Park.

Well, its gotta be a miracle from above, or a curse(GSA). I will vote for a miracle, even though it is usually mudcats and greenies.

I posted this a couple of years ago. I bought a duck at the local flea market, euthanized it, and cut a leg off. I found a BG nest and captured some eggs (That was tough. Actually getting them in my hand wasn't easy.) I did just about everything but epoxying and velcroing to get those eggs to stick to the ducks foot. Never happened. That was a waste. Even George wouldn't take the feathers to build flies.

Yeah, I know. I have too much time on my hands. Of course, I didn't stay with it for geologic time.

And, those who know me will tell you that never, under any circumstances, would I break the law by harming a GBH for my weird tests.

I wonder if the fish would survive getting picked up by a tornado or a hurricane?