Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Ant Killer

Anyone have any suggestions for an effective ant killer that is SAFE to use on ant hills near the pond edge? I really don't want to experiment with something that may adversely effect the fish.

Sarchasm

You might review this linked thread from the General Questions/Product Sources section.



You didn't indicate the targeted ant specie, so the discussion may not fit your situation. Also, you'd need to review the product labels to determine their appropriateness for the targeted areas.

Sarchasm,

Since you asked, I will recommend that you try an orange oil drench.

The research at the listed site is detailed but encouraging for this very low eco toxic solution.

http://www.dirtdoctor.com/view_org_research.php?id=24

GreenSense Product information

http://www.greensense.net/citrus.html

Cost on Amazon.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/browse.html/104-0355272-0175114?%5Fencoding=UTF8&me=A3FBSGXOWZ68CI

Good luck,

JW

What makes this product (Greensense CITRUS) a low eco-toxic solution? It has no eco-tox or acute-toxicity data on its MSDS, nor an EPA registration.

Greensense CITRUS is the “technical material” full strength concentration of d-limonene. The EPA lists the aquatic toxicity of the technical material at “Slightly Toxic to Practically Nontoxic” for the technical material d-limonene (citrus oil). This product is not a formulation (diluted mixture containing some smaller percentage of active ingredient) of a highly toxic technical material.

The FDA considers d-limonene to be safe as a food additive and since the EPA considers the technical material to be low toxicity it has waived the citations for toxicity in the MSDS, much like an MSDS for water would not list ecotoxicity.

The application of citrus oil to fire ant mounds is straight into the mound in diluted liquid form. This application limits the mobility of the active ingredient (d-limonene). Further, the active ingredient has a very short half life in the environment further limiting the mobility/potential contact with a body of water.

d-limonene is also insoluble in water so that if it were to get into the water it would be stable and because of it’s specific gravity would float on the water’s surface making it hard to affect fish.

The following information was taken from the EPA Reregistration Eligibility Decision (RED), September 1994, document referenced in the URL below.

http://www.epa.gov/REDs/3083.pdf

Excerpt from Appendix G. Fact Sheet, Page 3

Environmental
Assessment
Environmental Fate
Limonene is insoluble and is expected to be stable in water.
Ecological Effects
Technical limonene is practically nontoxic to birds on a subacute
dietary basis, and is slightly toxic to freshwater fish and invertebrates on an
acute basis. The formulated product is practically nontoxic to birds on an
acute and subacute dietary basis. It is practically nontoxic to freshwater fish
and slightly toxic to freshwater invertebrates on an acute basis. Based on
acute toxicity data using rats, limonene is practically nontoxic to mammals.

Nothing is ever completely fool proof and there are risks to using this and many other products. I am of the opinion that this product is more fool proof / safer than most on the market.

Cheers,

JW

Uncle!!! I'll concede the low eco-tox issue.

But, in regards to calling d'limonene a "solution" for fire ants, I'll reference part of the summary statement from the previously posted (linked) efficacy trials.

"There were no significant differences between treatments. In contrast to the 30 dat assessment of all ant nests in treatment plots (Table 2), by day 47 no statistical differences occurred for the total number of mounds per plot (untreated check - 3.67; Diatech III (PBO) - 2.0; Diatec V - 1.6; EcoEXEMPT IC 3.67; Erath Orange Oil - 3.67) and only 3 native ant nests were detected, all in one Erath Orange Oil treatment plot."

The "untreated checks", in this case, were mounds that were drenched only with water. So, it would appear that after 47 days, there were as many surviving mounds in the "eco-safe" treatment plots as were in the water-only drench treatment plot.

Seems like the water-only drench would be a cheaper and even more environmentally friendly treatment method, considering the long-term results.

We've known for years that it is easy to prompt a fire ant colony into moving its mound-site by effecting a significant disturbance, or by using an insecticide treatment that only kills a portion of the worker-ants. The real challenge is finding an environmentally compatible treatment for eradicating the entire fire ant colony - permanently.

I feel that this growing risk vs reward debate (re: the other related thread) needs to allow room for the VERY real (not theoretical) health risks to humans, pets and wildlife (associated with multiple fire ant stings) as we insinuate distinctions between treatment options that are safe, safer or safest.

Kelly,

Your conclusions about the efficacy of d-limonene and selective quotes from the referenced study are misleading. To focus only on the 47 day observations is to miss the important points below, made by the study’s author.

“ As a "home recipe," emulsified Erath Orange oil appeared to be a very promising treatment in this demonstration.”

“All treatments significantly reduced active ant mounds in plots relative to the water drench (untreated check) 4, 7 and 30 days following application.”

“At 14 days after treatment, the only treatments which significantly differed from the untreated check plot mound numbers were: 1) Diatec III containing the non-"organic" piperonil butoxide (PBO) synergist; and, 2) Erath Orange Oil emulsified with Thoroughbred nonionic surfactant.”

The 47 day observations are addressed in part by the following:

“Little rain occurred during the course of this trial (DATA?) Resulting in a steady decline of ant activity as documented in mounds treated with 1 gallon of water drench only on April 21 (Table 1).”

d-limonene when used as a formulated drench has been shown to be as effective as Diazinon, with Diazinon yielding only slightly faster control. (reference on request for space)

The use of the d-limonene drench is one major part of a three part organic solution for combating fire ants. The idea is to not wait 47 days 30 days or even 7 days before employing the other steps in the regime. It has worked well for me and I am sure it could work well for others.

Fire ant treatment regime:
“Pour a diluted mixture of orange oil, hot pepper tea and molasses on the ant mound - about an ounce of each per gallon of water.

After the ants have started moving around, drench the mound with a full-strength fire ant formula: Mix orange oil, molasses and compost tea together in equal proportions. Then add 6 ounces of this concentrate to a gallon of water and pour it into the middle of the mound. After the liquid floods the bottom of the mound, soak the rest of the mound and then the ants that are trying to run away. Ants that are hit with the liquid will be killed.

A day or two later, apply beneficial nematodes to the site to control the ant stragglers.
This technique doesn't just move the ants around as toxic chemicals do. And biological activity caused by following a complete organic landscape program will prevent the fire ants' return in many cases.”

For exactly the reasons you bring up in your last paragraph, I am surprised that you are not more open to and curious about this regime as a solution. The concerns you raise about humans pets and livestock are exactly why I am interested in ADVION. The answers you have provided on the other thread only serve to encourage me that it may be an effective permanent option.

I do look forward to getting hold of some ADVION so I can try it out.

I strive to be truthful, respectful, and open to other's ideas in these forums and only ask the same in return.

Truce?

JW