Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Giving the bio filter a head start

I have a hundred or so perch living in a mud hole that I've kept alive through aeration and a garden hose. Since it appears that it is never going to rain here again, I would like to put them a tank in my shop for the rest of this year and over the winter. I have read that it takes a couple of weeks for the bacteria to colonize in the filter.
If I soak the media (little plastic thingys) in pond water while I get the tanks and everything else cleaned,installed, etcetera, would that hasten the process of them being ready to do their thing when I get the complete system together?

It might but it's a risk of bringing in parasites etc.

I have my best luck just feeding the biofilter non sudsing ammonia until the ammonia and nitrites drop quickly on a regular basis.

I think that I'm already in over my head here, but I'll ask more questions.
Isn't ammonia what we are trying to get rid of?

You can also do that in a couple plastic buckets or barrel's if things are not ready. Just put adequate aeration (air stone) in the bottom of the bucket, dump in your media and dose it with Ammonia. Ammonia is what the little critters eat. No food, no critters.

It's best to do it the way Cecil explained. (although he peed in his tank ) Things will also go much smoother if you keep your temperature constant, as in the temperature you are going to run your system at.

You can also inoculate with bacteria, but it is not fool proof.

If you plan on using a low dose salt regime, you'll need to start your biofilter that way.

What did you get for media?

I've got a Tetra filtration kit-the same one Shorty is using which you can see in the "Thanks TJ" thread. The media are small "wheels" about an inch in diameter with spokes and ridges on the outside.
How much ammonia and how much water are we talking about in the buckets? I assume you don't use straight ammonia.

What's the "low dose salt regime"? Sounds like something for high blood pressure.

SRAC Publication No. 4502 should fill you in on all the details of getting a biofilter going.

I don't think they explain doing it in buckets, but it is the same thing, once you understand it.

Salt is a beneficial additive to reduce stress on your fish. Considered "Fish Aspirin". (I think it keeps freshwater fish a bit buzzed myself) It helps in quite a few ways, but you need to mind your P's and Q's doing this. Maybe we will just save this for Bullhead II RAS.

I'll have to look up what Shorty did. IIRC, it is a black canister with a couple hoses going to it.

Looked up the Tetra stuff and not sure which one you really have, but they are "complimentary" filters specifically designed for small ponds, and how these pond's typically work. An RAS is a different animal than a small pond, large pond, or even a lake.

You see, things can get concentrated rather quickly in an RAS that are not beneficial for the system, or the fish. Slip up thinking everything is fine when you went to bed, and next morning, pretty much everything is dead or dying.

You will have to watch things closely, and plan on doing routine water changes, pretty much daily, along with other maintenance.

You should do fine tho. Cecil and Shorty are working this well with replacing water on a regular basis.

Let us know what you finally end up with. Pictures are a plus

Bullhead,

It's actually a simple concept, but you need two things to get it going.

1.) Ammonia nonsudzing (Ace has it.) If you shake the bottle and it sudzes you don't want that.

2.) A test kit to test for ammonia, nitrite, and nitrates. An aquarium test kit like this works fine and is all I use.

API Master test kit:

http://www.amazon.com/API-FRESHWATER-MAS...+kit+freshwater



Simply add a cap full or so of the ammonia to your water. Test for ammonia with the test kit. You want around 4 ppm up to 8 ppm. If you go over don't worry about it.

Keep testing every few days. When the ammonia drops to 2 ppm or less add a little ammonia to get it back up to 4 ppm.

After about 5 days start testing for nitrites. When they show up that means you have bacteria oxidizing the ammonia you added.

At some point your nitrites will start climbing while your ammonia keeps dropping. Start testing for nitrates. Once your ammonia tests at zero soon after adding it and your nitrites also test for zero your water is now cycled and your nitrates should start climbing.

You're now ready to add fish. Now when you fish produce ammonia of their own the bacteria will be all primed to start working on it.

Salt can be added later but JKB is right you should add a little initially if you plan on using it although I know operators that don't use it at all.

Best salt level for me has been about 0.2 percent. (2ppt or 2000 ppm) Here's a great salt meter if you want to spend the money.

http://www.amazon.com/Aquascape-KoiMedic...ords=salt+meter

This fish don't actually need the ammonia or nitrites to survive right?

If I'm understanding this correctly in what we'll call "The Shorty Paradigm" , you fill the tank with water, get the bio filter started, throw in the fish, test for ammonia and any time it gets above 10ppm you do a massive water exchange to bring it back down. Eventually the bio filter starts doing its thing, and the time between water exchanges gets longer and longer (that's assuming the fish aren't growing so fast they keep making more and more ammonia).
Am I on the right track here?

I may have to try a few of these kits out seem to be nice.
Thanks

Your biofilter should be cycled (ready to work) before you add the fish.

I don't know of any fish that can handle 10ppm, much less 1ppm for an extended period of time.

Quite a bit more to this than meets the eye tho.

Plan on large daily water exchanges, even if your biofolter starts to kick in, but being a down flow submerged, it will be pretty erratic.

I just can't think of anything else to say at this point, except, Good Luck!

I haven't killed any fish yet.

In fact all I was using for the fist two months were mechanical filters and daily 20% water change outs, then a large 60% water change out once a week. Keep in mind that my SMB were still small and not crowded in the tank, also the water temps were in the upper 50 degree area for the first two months with no bio-filter.

Thanks TJ! thread (a few more details on my filter set up)

Bullhead, if it were me I would flow water through your tank this winter out in your shop if you can.

JKB, I missed the part of Cecil's post where he said "once the nitrite read zero and the ammonia also have first adding it..."

Higher temps in the RAS will get the filter going faster than colder water. Last Fall, it took roughly 6 weeks for it to be up and running from initial start-up.

No. The fish produce the ammonia as a metabolic waste. If you don't have a biofilter to oxidize ammonia or nitrates they will poison themselves.

Nitrite is a byproduct of oxidation of the ammonia, by the bacteria, but should read zero in a cycled tank due to another bacteria that oxidizes it to nitrates, which are fairly harmless.

I would be concerned of nitrites were above 1 or 2 ppm once the fish are added. If all is working it shouldn't read above 0.25 ppm, if even that.



No, you must have misunderstood. 10 ppm would kill the fish.

No water changes are needed before the fish are added. Follow my previous post. My instructions are on getting a cycle going without fish and require no water changes or risk to the fish.

If you need some reading to better understand do a search on fishless cycling of aquariums. It's the same principal.

That is not really true. They will all take about six weeks. You need to size accordingly for the operating temperature. Start a biofilter at 80F, get it going, then drop it to 60F, you will not like the results.

A biofilter at 80F for the same TAN (Total Ammonia Nitrogen) will be much smaller than one operating at 60F. They will both take the same time to be functional.

Some biofilters are vastly better than others, and you would want to stay away from something statically submerged if your temp's are going to be low.

RBC or an MBBR will be your two top dog choices.

Hope you don't have a headache!

I had one last Thursday when the Boss cancelled my vacation that was to start yesterday. Trust me, he paid for that one

I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

A biofilter operating at 60F needs to be much larger than a biofilter operating at 80F in order for it to do the same job.

Sized appropriately for their respective operating temperatures/same load, one at 60F and one at 80F, they will come in at about the same time.

I know I am not explaining this very well, but you are only noticing a difference due to the fixed size of your biofilter. There is another dimension to this, and much more complex.

Your RBC at 80F will remove more TAN than at 60F. If it works the same at a 20 degree differential, "you be a millionaire" and don't know it

Anyway, everyone will have their own experiences and understandings, and it is not really important.

Scott, learn any Greek lately I got me a few new fancy gizmos

See you guy's when you swing up

O.K. we were talking apples and oranges. I stand corrected.

My fault for mixing the fruit into a salad

No Greek, but learning about coriolis effect and spin drift.

Okay...I understood very little of the last three posts, but I shall press on nonetheless.

Cecil you said: "At some point your nitrites will start climbing while your ammonia keeps dropping. Start testing for nitrates. Once your ammonia tests at zero soon after adding it and your nitrites also test for zero your water is now cycled and your nitrates should start climbing."

After adding how much ammonia and how soon after adding it? I should have about 220 gallons in the tank.

I would add a capful or two and see what your ammonia reading is after the ammonia has had time to mix throughout your water column. If it's between 4 and 8 ppm you're good for starting out. If you need to add a little more add a little more.

I'd try and keep it about 4 ppm for about a week or so. At some point your nitrite test will tell you have nitrites and they will increase precipitously. Keep adding ammonia. When your ammonia reading drops quickly (it will happen before the nitrites do) along with nitrites, after adding ammonia, you are almost home free. When both read zero and nitrates are accumulating you're ready to add fish.

You really need to buy the book Small Scale Aquaculture by Steven VanGorder. It's not expensive and it does a really good job of explaining this. Much better than I can.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_17/185-1513365-6287918?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=small+scale+aquaculture&sprefix=Small+Scale+Aquac%2Cstripbooks%2C242

Trust me though. Once you get it you'll wonder why you thought it was so complicated.

Does the following graph help?

Reread your article from 2010 and recently ordered the book, but it hasn't gotten here yet. But until then, when I throw in a capful of ammonia, how quickly should the water test zero? Minutes, hours, days?

Days. See graph time line.