Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions Summer seepage vs Winter seepage

I was just wondering if there is something that can explain what I am seeing on my pond.

I see a fair amont of seepage in the summer months that go above and beyond what I would expect with evaportation. I can see as much as 1 inch per day on real hot weather and as low as 1/4 inch per day other times. I usually have a seasonal creek feeding into it. Thus I can maintain the level.

Over the winter months I block off the creek and rely on snow or other things to add water. Once we get hard water the water level seems to stabalize. I can cut through the ice and the water is right up to the ice. Thus it seems that during the winter I do not have a seepage problem.

The question is what would make this happen?
Is it due to the water in the soil freezing over and creating an ice dam in the seepage areas? Could it be due to the saturation of the surrounding soils?

Just curious if anyone has any ideas around this. Thanks!

i like yer speculation re: the possibility that frozen soil pore space water could block seepage in winter.

why do you block creek off in winter?

I usually don't block the creek off in the winter but this one I did because the water level in the pond is higher than that of the creek.

Long story short my neighbor broke down one of my dams on my property because he thought it was causing his septic field to back up. His field is over 12 ft higher than the creek water level.

Thus I am down to only the dam that lets water into the pond from the creek if my pond is low on water. I have re-routed all my drainage from the house and gutters and rest of the land to fill the pond outside of the seasonal creek.

I was also thinking that maybe its not seeping as much due to the trees being less active in the winter. My pond has many many large trees around it. In summer they are sucking water left right and center. In winter there is not much activitiy. Maybe its a combination of the trees and the ice formation. Who knows. I thought I would press the greater minds than mine on here for some ideas.

Thanks for the thoughts!!

If my neighbor tampered with any of my dams I would break his legs!

You may think you are blocking off the creek but it could flow up to 15 feet below grade you should keep the water flowing to provide water and oxygen also that open wter at the mouth lets gas escape.

As far as the frozen soil idea not much frost is found from the toe to the top deck in winter and none below the ice cap if snow is on the ground none at all . The water you have seeping out of the pond is around 48 degrees.

If you think you know where the leek is sink a dye tablet and flour mix to keep it on bottom and see what weeps out.

Good Luck Scott

Scott, In this case the creek is only a surface level water flow. It is truly seasonal and only runs with water run off and heavy rains. I have dug 5 ft away and the creek is so heavy with clay there isnt any seepage even five ft away as its running. I do have my areator runningin about 2-3 ft of water to keep an off gas hole opening at the mouth of the pond near the seasonal creek.

As for the ice cap, I can understand that and was wondering that myself. The thing is that I do not have any seepage in the winter months. I can understand what your saying for the spring or summer, but the winter months I am not losing anything that I can tell.

I would not be able to do anything with a dye mix. I tried that initially but since this is a dug pond and no dam area and is at surface level. I did not see any dye anywhere. I wish it were that easy.


If its not the ice then maybe its the soil thats saturated during these months due to heavy clay content. Still looking for an explanation that fits all the data at hand.

I've been told that cutting through the ice to check water levels is deceiving.

As water levels drop under the ice, the ice itself drops from it's own weight. There is a "bow" in the level. The surface ice can be lost to sublimation. I have a pond that loses 3/4 inch per day during the winter, but the ice follows it down. It's only detectable by observing the shoreline ice that gets left behind.

Bruce, Nice thought and I thought of that as well, but I have the inlet dam marked and a few other places marked and I haven't lost an inch since we got the cold weather. I also have the spot where I keep open with the areator marked and that also shows no sign of water loss.

I found some other interesting things about hte ice and whats happening with snow onthe pond. If you move the snow over to the sides of the pond to provide an open area, You actually cause the sides to drop lover and the center to bow up. The sides then form holes in areas where there is gas trapped and then the pressure of the ice moving down causes the water to push up through these gas holes. Thus you then see fresh water flowing up onto the surface of the ice. Once the weight of the snow has been bouyed up the water stops runing through the holes to the surface and then seals back over.

I had observed these holes in previous years but did not understand them or what was going on until I went back to my physics books and did a few experiments.

Ahhh always learning with the pond, and twice as fast in the winter!!!!!!

Cecil, I nearly did and my wife saved me from a few years in jail let me tell you!!!

When he broke down the dam on my land I lost about a foot of water and a few of the fish and minnows.

Truth be told we were friends prior to this but now we are not speaking at all. I marked my property line and showed him he was in the wrong but he still claims the creek raising 2 inches from previous years has caused his raised bed septic to have problems. He had called the same septic man I use and asked him if that is what caused it and the septic man told him that the problem was his distribution box was bad after 20 yrs. He said no its the damn pond and the septic man laughed at him and told him he the same thing I did.

Such is life. Not much of a loss but makes doing things around the pond less fun whenyou know some crazy person wants to tear it down any chance they get.

Eric, your neighbor is exhibiting a behviour that I see on a daily basis.

If something goes wrong in your life it is apparently much more satisfying to land the blame on someone else as opposed to looking at your own culpability. It's too bad. Sorry you have to put up with that cr**. :rolleyes:

i like yer summer vs winter "tree water use" speculation as well Eric. i take it you have mature trees all the way up to pond's edge? they probably have all kinds of feeder roots along sides of pond.

as long as you are doing nothing wrong, ya need some no tresspassing signs, and to rebuild yer second dam. get to know yer local sherriff. if the guy persists in tresspassing and property damage, wake his ass up with the law. i'm sorry to hear that too, but private property is PRIVATE PROPERTY. however eric, i imagine you to be a kinder and gentler man than i, just my two cents.

Thanks Bruce, I am sorry your living the CR** everyday. I hate that there are people like that out in the world. But hey thats life. You learn to live with it or go crazy trying to change something you have little control over.

DIED, Yes I do have mature trees on two sides of the pond up to about 2 ft away from the edge. I am thinking more and more that htis may be the major problem.

As for the neighbor, I would like to think I am a more gentle man, but truth is if I could put bear traps out or bermise tiger traps or pits filled with rattle snakes (and I hate snakes) I would put it along my property line and hope he or his yappy little pup fell in. A

All I can say is thank god for my wife. She has put things in perspective and has given the support to move past this. As much as she didn't want the pond at first and did't understand my obsession with it, she told me to reroute the water from the yard and put underground pipes from the house to fill the pond so that I wouldn't have to deal with the crazy man next door.

I hope I didn't imply that the "you know what" is part of my job as a dentist. I'm just thinking that more and more I'm seeing in all aspects of my life that people don't look at their own responsibility. I have neighbors below my pond that blame my pond for allowing water into a waterway that goes through their property. They tattled on me to the NRCS. When the NRCS agent came out to investigate he said it was the first time ever that a farmer complained of getting "too much" water in a waterway. He said it's always the other way around...then mumbled about my neighbors wasting his time.

It's hard to believe but, after a while, you kinda develop at taste for it. Life gets boring when people quit messing with me.

Bruce, I did not read it as a "you know what". I read it more as I hear you and feel your pain.

Dave, I may be getting to that point as well, but it would be nice to be free of people messing with you all the time, once in a while.

In the mean time:

Due to 12 inches of snow and other things Pond went up 1/2 inch over the past 4 days.

...a self-developed Davidson blessing, derived as a by-product of rapier wit. After a direct thrust, most of us thank Dave for his kind words, then walk away wondering why we're bleeding. :p

Scott how would you exactly build a dye tablet and sink it? I have been thinking about doing something like that since I have a wet spot behind my dam. I am not sure if it is groud water or actually a leak.

Donnie