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#389429 10/12/14 02:32 PM
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Does anyone make their own fish food? I have spent a lot of time working on food formulas for fish kept in an aquarium. I have been trying to help a friend get his pond back in good shape after years of neglect. This got me to thinking why not create a few recipes for game fish.

Gamefish Grow

Whole Menhaden Meal 7.8 oz. 44.5%
Shrimp Meal 4.8 oz. 27.4%
Wheat Flour 4.4 oz. 25.1%
Crude Menhaden Fish Oil .5 oz. 2.8%
Water 17 oz.

Mix ingredients and dehydrate.

48.4% protein, 10% fat, 19.6% starch, 3.8% fiber, 13.6% ash and 4.6% moisture

Ingredient cost for a lb about $1.20 plus dehydration cost.


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I'm all about doing it yourself whenever possible, but a 50lb. bag of 41% protein Purina Aquamax is around $38 in my area. I think it would be hard to compete with that?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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There are many things that the big companies can do so much better than we can as individuals. I would put fish food in that category. My garden, my chickens, and even my fish are a different story. But I couldn't do it without the help of the big researchers.

I'm not a professional, but I've attended hundreds of hours of workshops, seminars, etc., related to aquaculture and agriculture. Over the years I've had the good fortune to spend time with some of the world's top fish feed researchers. Through research grants, I've helped test and compare a number of experimental and commercial fish food formulations.

Knowing what I know now, I don't think I could come even close to producing similarly effective feeds for anywhere near the cost that the commercial producers can provide. Your estimates are based on raw materials. After you factor in the cost of the equipment, labor, transportation, storage, etc., I'm guessing you would be nearly triple the cost of the raw materials -- and the fish might not even like it. A few years back, Cargill found that after lots of research money on one of their game fish food products, they thought they might help change the industry. The problem was that the fish didn't like the product!

Maybe that is like the difference between a heritage turkey and a commercial turkey for Thanksgiving. I couldn't possibly produce turkey's for $0.79 a pound, especially if I included all my labor to make it ready for the oven.

I have no idea what my catfish and big bluegill cost per pound, but it has to compare to, or exceed, the prices for top grade commercially provided tuna, grouper, striped bass, etc. And, that is based on using good commercially produced fish feed.

Good luck,

Regards,
Ken


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Originally Posted By: catmandoo
There are many things that the big companies can do so much better than we can as individuals.


This does not apply to me. I simply posted a formula that can be made at home that I am confident will outperform any of the manufactured feeds as far as growth is concerned. As far as them eating the food I am assuming that pond predators just like aquarium predators (which I have done extensive testing on) will like a food compromised of 71% fish and shrimp versus a food that is primarily grain. I am not trying to sell anything, simply trying to be helpful.


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I say go for it. And I agree on a fish-based feed vs. grain based. That's why a lot of folks here feed the Aquamax. Fishmeal is where it's at.


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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I am not well versed in commercial fish feed. The Aquamax 50% protein does look like a really good growth food. Do you happen to have your local price for the 50%?

Last edited by Fish Food; 10/12/14 08:18 PM.

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I'm sorry I don't, as I've never fed any greater percentage than 41. Maybe someone else will weigh in with some prices?


"Forget pounds and ounces, I'm figuring displacement!"

If we accept that: MBG(+)FGSF(=)HBG(F1)
And we surmise that: BG(>)HBG(F1) while GSF(<)HBG(F1)
Would it hold true that: HBG(F1)(+)AM500(x)q.d.(=)1.5lbGRWT?
PB answer: It depends.
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From what I know all carnivores in the wild get around 45% - 50% protein in what they eat. I also know that at around 20% starch they pass anything past that. Protein builds and replenishes muscle and tissue. Fat and starch or sugar provide energy for growth. Fiber is passed. The protein, fat and fiber numbers add up to 70%. It takes around 15% starch to hold the food together. That puts us at 85%. Lets assume 8% ash which part of it is passed and 7% moisture moisture. This foods net energy gain is off the chart! I am guessing all but about 14% of the food is used by the fish.

Ken I stand corrected. My apologies if I came off as rude.


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Aquamax 5D00, Fry Powder is the highest protein/fat food I'm aware of. I pay $42 per 50 pound bag. 5D01 is the same formula as far as I know, but is more like sand and only $38/bag.

One huge benefit with commercially produced feed, beside a much lower cost, is a "balanced" diet, which includes vital nutrients in the form of vitamins, minerals, and trace elements the fish need to remain healthy. Protein and fat is only a starting point.

Purina Aquamax is also about 98% digestible.....

Last edited by Rainman; 10/13/14 12:25 AM.


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One more thing to think about when feeding fish in ponds is floating food vs. sinking food. I believe floating food allows pond owners to see how much food the fish are eating and that allows them to adjust the amount of food they feed to prevent wasting feed by feeding too much.


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If you are making home made feed for aquarium fish, don't be so sure your feed formula is really doing your fish any favors. In an aquarium, feed MUST supply every essential element needed for health and growth. Aquarium fish can not forage and eat incidental items that provide the trace elements, vitamins and minerals.....it is included in commercially made "Balanced Diet" feeds, as I mentioned in my earlier post. Just like feeding Big Cats in zoos only skinned meats, they often get rickets and other vitamin deficiency disorders...they need skin, bone and dirt from their kills....



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Originally Posted By: sprkplug
I'm sorry I don't, as I've never fed any greater percentage than 41. Maybe someone else will weigh in with some prices?

I feed Cargill, and the number's and prices are about the same as AM.


AL

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Originally Posted By: Rainman
If you are making home made feed for aquarium fish, don't be so sure your feed formula is really doing your fish any favors. In an aquarium, feed MUST supply every essential element needed for health and growth. Aquarium fish can not forage and eat incidental items that provide the trace elements, vitamins and minerals.....it is included in commercially made "Balanced Diet" feeds, as I mentioned in my earlier post. Just like feeding Big Cats in zoos only skinned meats, they often get rickets and other vitamin deficiency disorders...they need skin, bone and dirt from their kills....


I was assuming the pond fish would get enough vitamins from whatever they find to eat. Rest assured my home made fish food has adequate vitamins and minerals for aquarium fish. What I posted above was an attempt at a competitively priced pond diet intended to provide superior growth. I failed! lol

I still haven't found an ingredients list on the Aquamax 50% protein foods. I am simply curious to see how they do it.


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Originally Posted By: Rainman
Purina Aquamax is also about 98% digestible.....


Are we talking protein digestibility?


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Does your homemade fish food float or sink?

I'm just wondering if it would be worth a persons time to make the food or not, in the quantities needed, or if it would just be something that a person would do more as a hobby.

If a person were to start from scratch that never had made fish food before, considering any equipment that needed to be purchased, any supplies that needed to be purchased, and any energy used (gas or electric), what would it take to make 50# of food ($$ and a persons time)?

Here is a label from AquaMax 600 and 500, the most commonly fed sizes of Purina Aquamax fish food.




FWIW, the last 50# bag that I purchased was $0.714 per pound, including sales tax. (it takes me 20-25 minutes each way to and from the store)


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Yo Fish - Welcome to the forum, and I appreciate your efforts to be resourceful and creative. Please keep us in the loop regarding your efforts to create the food/pellet, and consider performing some performance tests VS commercial fish food. Regardless of whether your goals are to just to prove you can do it, or create a competitive product for the market, for me it doesn't matter either way. I admire your ingenuity and look forward to reports.


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Originally Posted By: Fish Food
Originally Posted By: Rainman
Purina Aquamax is also about 98% digestible.....


Are we talking protein digestibility?


Total digestibility when fed an optimum amount.....Only about 2% of what goes into the front end, comes out the rear end of the fish. Overfeeding will cause more waste.

I think we all would like a competitive feed we can have quality control over, however, I seriously doubt your aquarium fish are getting all they need to grow and thrive. In a "natural" setting, the fish will ingest all manner of zooplankton and other microscopic organisms along with plant matter, soils, etc. These things contain a wide variety of nutrients, minerals and trace elements essential for health and growth that can not be replicated in an aquarium. Fat and protein are only 2 key components to growth. I wonder what the nutrient breakdown would be for all that menhaden....?



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Originally Posted By: esshup
Does your homemade fish food float or sink?

I'm just wondering if it would be worth a persons time to make the food or not, in the quantities needed, or if it would just be something that a person would do more as a hobby.

If a person were to start from scratch that never had made fish food before, considering any equipment that needed to be purchased, any supplies that needed to be purchased, and any energy used (gas or electric), what would it take to make 50# of food ($$ and a persons time)?

Here is a label from AquaMax 600 and 500, the most commonly fed sizes of Purina Aquamax fish food.




FWIW, the last 50# bag that I purchased was $0.714 per pound, including sales tax. (it takes me 20-25 minutes each way to and from the store)


It sinks.

It would be more of a hobby as it requires your time.

You could just mix the mash and feed it like the ornamental fish farmers in southern Florida.

In the aquarium my goal is as little waste as possible as it is a fragile ecosystem. A large body of water can absorb more waste.

What I did in the recipe above is reduce waste in a pond food as cheaply as possible. It would be better to use soybean meal as a binder however it is more expensive.

Protein digestibility percentages:
Whole Menhaden Meal 93%
Shrimp Meal 86.5% average
Wheat 42%
Soybean Meal 91%

A quick look at the Aquamax ingredients:

Fish Meal - This is a parts meal meaning after salmon or catfish fillets are removed the remainder is cooked and ground into a meal. This meal has a high ash content since a good portion of what is used is bones.

Poultry by product meal - Warm blooded creatures make poor fish food. Fish are not made to process warm blooded creatures.

Soybean Meal - Quality protein and starch (energy) binder

Corn and wheat - starch binders

Soybean Oil - This doesn't make sense to me. Vegetable oil is far inferior to fish oil in fat quality.

Pork Blood Meal - Warm blooded creatures make poor fish food.

Fish Oil - Very Good.

The question is does feeding a quality mash produce the added weight desired to offset the increased cost.


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Originally Posted By: Rainman
Originally Posted By: Fish Food
Originally Posted By: Rainman
Purina Aquamax is also about 98% digestible.....


Are we talking protein digestibility?


Total digestibility when fed an optimum amount.....Only about 2% of what goes into the front end, comes out the rear end of the fish. Overfeeding will cause more waste.

I think we all would like a competitive feed we can have quality control over, however, I seriously doubt your aquarium fish are getting all they need to grow and thrive. In a "natural" setting, the fish will ingest all manner of zooplankton and other microscopic organisms along with plant matter, soils, etc. These things contain a wide variety of nutrients, minerals and trace elements essential for health and growth that can not be replicated in an aquarium. Fat and protein are only 2 key components to growth. I wonder what the nutrient breakdown would be for all that menhaden....?


No offense but there is no way that fish pass only 2% of your food.


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Are you 100% sure about the fish not able to process warm blooded animal thing?



I believe if that was the case, then the fish would die because any warm blooded animal would create a blockage in the digestive tract, much like a rubber worm would.


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Originally Posted By: esshup
Are you 100% sure about the fish not able to process warm blooded animal thing?



I believe if that was the case, then the fish would die because any warm blooded animal would create a blockage in the digestive tract, much like a rubber worm would.


I didn't say they couldn't get any use from warm blooded creatures. All fish are opportunistic feeders. However they are made to consume fish, shrimp, bugs etc..

I am going to try to catch and weigh a few bass for my other thread.


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Fish, high digestibility Purina feeds, such as Aquamax, and Pro Plan for dogs, are indeed 98% digestible and converted into flesh. In the case of Tilapia, Aquamax will create 1 pound of flesh for each 1.2 pounds of feed consumed. This is repeated and documented. The extra loss is due to calories expended. In the wild (pond) an Large mouth bass will consume about 10 pounds of food for each pound gained. Using Aquamax, LMB growth will be about 1 pound flesh to 4 pounds feed, again, with metabolic calories consuming the extra nutrition.

Not all feeds are the same, but the feeds Purina has for high growth are using highly digestible ingredients.

Some low-quality feeds use chicken feathers to "factually" claim a high protein content, yet animals cannot utilize that protein.



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Originally Posted By: Fish Food
Originally Posted By: esshup
Are you 100% sure about the fish not able to process warm blooded animal thing?



I believe if that was the case, then the fish would die because any warm blooded animal would create a blockage in the digestive tract, much like a rubber worm would.


I didn't say they couldn't get any use from warm blooded creatures. All fish are opportunistic feeders. However they are made to consume fish, shrimp, bugs etc..

I am going to try to catch and weigh a few bass for my other thread.


That is true. LMK what they weigh and their length!!


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Originally Posted By: Fish Food
Ken I stand corrected. My apologies if I came off as rude.


Oh, gosh no. I didn't see anything wrong with your response.

As Sparkplug says -- Go for it!

I've probably been biased by what I've seen the commercial feed makers go through to develop products. Before all the budget cuts, I volunteered for a number of years with the University of WV Aquaculture Extension Service at a fish research facility. One of the things we did was test a lot of different feeds from a number of different producers. Especially through our many Pond Boss conferences, we've gotten to see what Purina and Cargill have gone through in developing premium feeds.

When Dr. Mark Griffin was still at Purina, and working close with the Pond Boss himself, Bob Lusk, we got to see the painstaking work that went into developing Aquamax. Similarly, through Pond Boss we've gotten to see what one of the biggest producers found after extensive research on the "perfect" food -- the fish didn't like it!

I don't use the best feed for my fish. But, my fish are happy. That makes me happy. I've spent a lot of time playing with different ideas to improve my ponds and my fish. That is what I see you doing, and I applaud you for it. That is also what the Pond Boss forum is all about -- sharing our ideas.

Finally -- I'm not sure you were ever welcomed into the Pond Boss family. So, welcome to Pond Boss. Please keep us informed of what you are doing. We all learn from each other.

Ken


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Originally Posted By: Rainman
Not all feeds are the same, but the feeds Purina has for high growth are using highly digestible ingredients.


Through my work with the WV Extension Service, we actually got a conversion of 0.7 with a particular feed from a company in Pennsylvania. That is, for every 0.7 lbs., of fish feed, we got 1 lb., of flesh. These were rather extreme circumstances. Some of it had to do with the level of dehydration, but ...


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