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We sell Vertex systems. PM me your address, where electricity is and the general depths of the pond and I can design a system for your pond.

Congrats on the new Saugeye!

Wasn't that a grandson road trip? If so, hope you had some entertaining conversations.

I guess if the ISS give you positive results, then YOU will become the Pond Boss resident expert on silver shiners.

I just responded in your old thread, but now I see you have gone to Plan B!

Are the sides of the pond also cut down into bedrock, or are they unconsolidated material? Concrete block walls are not great at resisting lateral forces if there is water-saturated, unconsolidated material on the outside of the wall is trying to push into the pond.

Of course, the water in the pond will somewhat help resist the external lateral force. Will your pond usually remain full, or will the water level cycle up and down?

Is there any chance that the bedrock itself could be a seal for your pond? Even if there are natural fractures or a visible joint pattern in the bedrock, sometimes those cracks can be "blind", and not connect to any significant additional void spaces.

Can you drill into the bedrock with a hammer drill and a masonry bit? If so, rebar drilled into the bedrock that also extends up into your concrete pours would make an exceedingly strong foundation.

There are several "construction guys" in the forum. Hopefully some of them also have some expertise in concrete foundations to answer your specific questions.

Good luck on finishing your pond utilizing Plan B!

No HSB , but some beautiful WE and brand new SAE. SMB doing well. Pay to fish, afraid during hot weather, the HSB would be abused. Give ISS a salt bath and see, unless someone knows of an issue. ( If ISS already taken, sorry )

Sorry your bentonite application probably won't work!

Time to think outside of the box.

If you think you can seal the bottom effectively, then maybe try a pond liner on vertical sides? If you cut your sides vertical, you could have a little more pond volume within your restricted space.

You could tuck the pond liner into a trench in the pond bottom and then backfill to anchor it. I think it would be very unlikely to get punctured since no animals or humans would be able to effectively put weight on it.


Alternatively, I have seen applications of cement modified soil. However, that material was used for erosion control in emergency spillways subject to erosive water flows. I have not personally seen it used in applications where perfect sealing is required.

I have attached an engineering paper from my files to give you a little more information if you have to go the "Cement Modified Soil" route.

chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://secement.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/EB242.pdf

I bet Silver Shiners are much more affordable the Golden Shiners!

I asked some questions on Pond Boss in the past about adding several of the local species of small forage fish from my creek into my ponds. A few of our experts responded and said that some "creek species" do fine in ponds and some do not thrive at all. I think silver shiners may be a big lake/big river species.

However, I believe the biggest consensus was that for lesser known species, you just have to try them in YOUR pond. I don't expect they could cause any problems but I have zero expertise.

I think a few people have tried the somewhat similar emerald shiners in their ponds? I believe emeralds like to school up near the surface in the open water portions of the pond. If you don't have any shad in the ponds, maybe they could go into that niche?

I can't remember, do you have some HSB stocked in your ponds? The HSB when they are smaller might really like the silver shiners in a pond and show some rapid initial growth.

(All of the above commentary is mere speculation on my part. Hopefully some of the experts can give you some real advice!)

P.S. Do you have any forage or grow out ponds? Maybe you could throw a few hundred in there now, and see how they reproduce going forward. If they do well, then maybe move a few thousand into your fishing ponds?

Hello fellow pond enthusiasts,

I'm in the process of constructing a pond and would love to get some advice from those with experience in concrete pond construction. The pond has been excavated, revealing a sloping bedrock at the bottom. The sides are steep, almost vertical, and part of the pond structure is above ground, reinforced externally with a thick layer of soil and stone.

I plan to use concrete blocks for the sides, but I want to maintain the natural slope of the bedrock. To do this, I'll need to create a level base or foundation around the sides on the bedrock before setting the blocks. What would be the best approach for building the foundation? Could a circular slab reinforced with rebar work? What would be the best waterproofing agent or coating to apply to the concrete to prevent water leakage and protect aquatic life from the alkali content of the cement?

I'm aiming for a durable and eco-friendly solution that ensures the health of the pond's ecosystem. Any tips, product recommendations, or construction techniques would be greatly appreciated. I know that it would be easier to just use a pond liner but I am optíng not to.

Thank you for the reply. The pond is dry, I've just finished digging it. I have now been in contact with several distributors of bentonite and all of them say the same thing, sodium bentonite is not a good option for me as it tends to creep downwards on slopes steeper than a 1:3 ratio (V:H). Guess I'll need to look for another solution.

Has anyone had experience with these in a pond environment ? Little info on Google. (ISS ) ? Have access to 1000's cast netting .

Thank you for this


Are there any grid based aeration systems you can recommend?


Thank you

Sorry to hear about your fish kill.

Big rains can cause fish kills by suddenly altering the chemistry of your pond water.

However, in your case, I think it was probably the cold rainwater that did the damage. Your pond was probably just now warm enough to get a nice thermal stratification established. The warm, oxygenated water was on top, and there was cold, low-oxygen water at the bottom of your pond.

The cold rainwater was denser than your warm water on top, and perhaps even colder (and denser) than your bottom water. This may have caused some partial to complete turnover of your pond water. Your fish were then subjected to a big temperature shock, plus were exposed to low-oxygen water if all of your bottom water came up.

One solution (beforehand) is to have some aeration at your pond. If you have a much deeper column of oxygenated water, then the big rain event is not quite so disruptive.

I do NOT know what you can do right now to benefit your remaining fish. Hopefully, one of the experts can give you some advice.

Good luck getting the rest of your fish through this stress period!

Glad to hear the pond and property are all in the family. If your grandpa built the pond, it sounds like it has already been creating multi-generational joy for quite some time. I like your plan to keep that tradition going!

Many types of minnows do not spawn on a sandy pond bottom, but on plants, debris in the water, etc. Their spawn may be completely unrelated to the spawning habitat available to your BG and bass.

I am glad to hear that you are getting some reproduction of your BG and bass. I expected that would be the case, I just don't know where they are spawning in ponds like yours. Do you ever see BG or bass in the shallow water guarding nests? If so, that might help you figure out what they like in your pond.

It does sound like you have the option of drawing down your water. You can clear a lot of pond bottom by only drawing down the water level a few feet. That should not harm your fish population. (Don't do it during the spawn or during the period of your warmest water and lowest dissolved oxygen.)

I can rent a mini-excavator in my area for only $200/day. I usually get it on the weekends so I can put a full 8 hours on the meter since most of my jobs involve multiple steps with me off of the equipment. That is the cost for the size I can tow behind a 1/2-ton pickup. If your family has a bigger haul truck, you can get a bigger excavator and move much more material and reach farther into the pond.

I have used the mini-excavators in standing water, but always in places that had a firm bottom. I think you could scrape the muck from the shore in a few places and then drive in a little deeper to extend your reach. (Only if you are comfortable operating the equipment and know how to use the bucket and boom to drag yourself out of slippery trouble.) You could then add some sand/gravel mix to enhance your spawning habitat.

I am a big believer in running small experiments before making large changes. You could even just clear the muck from some strips about 6' wide. That will change the rooted plant distribution in those areas for a few years. Lots of forage fish like "edge cover", as do the small bass. That could be an additional benefit to increasing your spawning beds. It also creates easy areas for small kids to fish.

If that is still over budget, maybe you could poor-boy some spawning locations. You can put out some landscape fabric in your muck and then make sand-filled depressions for spawning areas. Perhaps you could do a few in low-traffic areas where you can sneak an occasional peak and observe the activity on the beds. The BG may still spawn a few more times this year. You could find out what areas they like and their preferred water depth.

The muck in your pond persists due to the anoxic (no oxygen) conditions just below the surface of your pond bottom. Adding aeration may help the fish a little bit, but the main benefit is to help slow muck formation and perhaps even reverse it.

Your pond is so shallow, I would think (as a non-expert) that you could get by with some relatively inexpensive aeration. You could utilize a rotary vane compressor for your application. They are not that expensive and can be easily rebuilt, so you can achieve a long life at a reasonable price. Perhaps start a new thread in the aeration section and see what the experts say is the minimal system to improve your pond.

Finally, I agree with you as regards making decisions about pond management when there are so many variables. When I first joined Pond Boss, I thought, all I have to do is listen to all of these experts and then create the "perfect pond". However, as I kept reading, I finally figured out there is no such thing as a designed perfect pond. Every pond is ALWAYS a moving target. Good management can help you reach your specific goals more easily. It can also increase the percentage of time that your pond is a good fishery. However, the flip side is also true - since your pond conditions are always changing, it is difficult for you to really screw things up doing your management. Don't allow your pond outlet to get clogged, such that a big rain event blows out your dam. Carefully follow the instructions on applying herbicides or chemicals in your pond. Don't allow invasive species into your pond. If you follow those basic rules, then I don't think you can make a management decision that can't be remedied in the future after observing the outcome.

New member here need some help hard heavy rain the other day and the temperature outside drop drastically. Today I have alot of dead baby bluegill and a few big bluegill dead what happen to my pond. I tested the ph it us 6.5.

Thanks all for the kind words.

@FishinRod

We have capacity to run power to the pond, but the quote we received for a full aeration system was pricey and more than I can spend right now. I’ve considered adding a simple pump at one end because “something is better than nothing,” but I’m not sure it’s worth it. As far as I know, we’ve never had noticeable fish kill. We have two small creeks that feed the pond and so I’d say the water turns over pretty regularly, at least a little.

As for the muck, I sometimes wade the shallow end and the muck is not nearly as deep as I expected it would be. Our lake/pond bottom’s around here are fairly mushy due to the type of soil we have. That said, I’d still like to drain it and excavate, or somehow “dredge” it with a pump to remove the silt without draining it. I have the same concerns as you about spawning habitat and plan to install pea gravel in a few areas after removing the muck in the surrounding areas. Fish are obviously spawning because I see them when I walk the pond. It’s not a proper survey, but I often see thousands of minnows, bream, etc on the waters edge when fishing or exploring.

My brother actually owns the entirety of the pond. Other family members live on the sprawling property, but ownership will never be an issue. Thanks for your help and guiding questions!

Edit: as for the leaves/needles, yes, we notice them floating after a long storm. I’m sure 2-3” of the bottom is pure leaf litter. I’d really like to remove it, and plan to at some point, one way or another. My kids enjoy fishing the pond, so if there’s anyway to clear it out without draining it, that would be ideal.

I’d love to grow a 10lbs bass, but I also like the pond as it is. The decision making is harder than expected.

Happy birthday Theo dude!

Starting to worry that we won't have a toad gathering (a toad-stock concert) at our pond this year. It seems as Mr. Cody says that right after YP eggs are laid, the American Toads start their chorus and then from far and wide they all find their way to our pond. I'm sure this has to happen every year regardless of COVID lockdowns and the rising inflations rates. This year has been odd. I saw zero YP eggs for the first time in 10 years (I suspect our Pekin duck which survived the critter that wrung the neck of his lifelong partner) is to blame for vacuuming up the eggs? No other reason why we would have zero visible ribbons when we caught some egg-laden females a few weeks prior.

Then as of yet we have zero toads in the pond. Anyone else who usually has toads in their pond have a late season or maybe it is too cold here at night for our toads? I saw the Ohio pond member posting that the event went on as scheduled in his pond so that is heartening.

I am NOT a Relative Weight guy, but these are my fishing observations.

A female LMB right before the spawn is at her largest RW of the year (obviously). The males right after they have been guarding the nest for an extended period may be at their skinniest for the year.

I am not positive that RW measurements taken at this time of year are necessarily indicative of the health of the bass population.

(All of the more knowledgeable people feel free to correct me or expand on this comment.)

I'd like to piggyback off this!

My scenario might be a little easier. My pond now shows up on satellite images, so size estimation is ~1/8 acre. ~1/3 of it is 11' deep, majority of the rest is 4-6' deep, with a shallow cove about 2' deep. I do have 20 acres of woods. Pond is almost 2 years old, I've been aerating a hour every morning with a double diffuser head since the pond was about 6 months old from April - Novemberish. Bill hooked me up with a great double extending net that I walk around the perimeter and net out leaves in the fall as much as I can. The pond is right beside my house, so access is easy. I've been looking into aesthetically pleasing bushes to get around in some areas as a block, but on to questions:

A). Would beneficial bacteria in my situation be of benefit to help break down the inevitable leaves that are missed? And if so, what is the preferred product?

B). I've seen them make products for ocean trash clean up that essentially float around sucking in water to skim it for trash. Is there any experience with any such type of product here? I see limitations mainly being holding capacity of the bin/basket/bag. Certainly this would not be the sole management plan, but I thought something like this might be beneficial to help scoop up leaves/debris that might have otherwise been missed. I did find a 5ft wide floating manual pull skimmer I'm keeping in the back of my mind as a back up plan, but a leaf-eating floating robot skimmer would be pretty cool!

Thank you for all help and expertise on this!

Happy spring, all!

The system that I inquired for guidance on last year is back up and running this season! Thanks again for everyone who helped me think through that.

[img]https://photos.app.goo.gl/WBURwXt38Jbf9zpT9[/img]

As I mentioned at the end of that thread (but never got around to trying late last summer), I'd like to try expanding the setup a bit to two diffusers.

To recap:

I started pretty small & simple - a single 9" diffuser on 50 feet of 3/8" airline, powered by the HIBLOW HP-60. HIBLOW specs say this puts out 60lpm and 2.13 PSI.

The Matala diffuser lists air inflow range as 0.88 to 3.53 CFM, which converts to 24-98lpm.

I'd like to add a 2nd diffuser, towards the other side of the pond.

Ideally I'd like to go ~75-100 feet with the 2nd line. Is 3/8" still Ok for this?

And, more generally - will I be bumping up against the lower end of the diffusers' inflow range?


Any other concerns / issues with this plan?

Welcome to Pond Boss!

I agree, that is a beautiful pond.

I love the look of having the trees right at the water's edge, especially since our property is in wind-swept Kansas. However, I expect your pond was significantly deeper when it was brand new.

The bald cypress trees that I have drop a lot of those feathery needles and also up to a hundred pounds of those darn round cones from each mature tree. I don't have longleaf pines but my Ponderosa pines also drop a huge litter of needles.

All of that tree material that makes it into your pond is building up your organic muck and robbing the pond of depth. I do like the rim of iris. They should catch some of the needles that are trying to blow into the pond.

Do you ever have a period in the fall where there are a bunch of pine and cypress needles floating on the surface of the pond? Do you ever have floating pine cones and cypress cones? If so, then it might be worth the effort to scoop out some of that debris after a good wind moves it to one shoreline.

Do you have the ability to easily run 120V AC electricity to the edge of the pond? If so, starting an aeration system may help get some healthy bacteria (that require oxygenated water) to start breaking down part of your muck.

I am worried that your LMB are so small because they do not have nearly enough forage. Even if you cull a bunch of stunted bass, the remaining/new bass will need lots of forage to grow rapidly.

I have seen many old ponds like yours and waded in to fish past the prolific plant cover in shallow water. Every single step was in deep muck. In that situation, where the heck do the BG (and the bass) spawn? I know they do, because there are both small BG and small bass in those ponds. However, there is nothing in the pond that could be referred to as "good spawning habitat".

Do you typically have enough water input that it would be easy to drain down the pond as much as 4', and then have it refill reasonably quickly? I am asking because drawing down the water and cleaning the muck from just a few pond slopes with heavy equipment and then adding some sand/gravel might give you a huge payoff in BG production.

Does your family own all of the pond? (It looks like there may be more than one house/cabin on the property.) If not, then it is much more difficult to get approval to spend money on pond improvements. However, the people on the forum in that situation generally have better success if they keep the rest of the owners in the loop during the planning phase.

P.S. Fathead minnows are typically a poor investment in mature ponds. They will be eaten long before they ever get a chance to reproduce, and they add very little weight to your bass for the price.

Good luck on your pond improvements. A pond of that size in LA certainly has the potential to produce some whopping big bass!

A way to quickly limit some of the bass in the pond is catch and remove the male that is guarding the school of bass fry. Then most of the unprotected fry will get eaten. which will help you 1-3 years down the road.

Welcome to the forum. I think the best thing to do for getting a handle on the pond with those goals in mind is to get an electroshock survey done. THEN you can determine what fish need to be added. It will also help you remove a lot of the underperforming bass quickly so you can start on the road to achieving your goals faster.

You may have to stock new LMB to help the genetic pool too, but that can be determined when the survey is done.

I stocked something similar just under a year ago. I spot minnows daily, a few catfish have started coming up to feed, and last week, I saw a school of bass for the first time, which got me really excited.

Thanks, Snow Dog.

That's a great thread ewest!