Pond Boss Forums Thread Like Summary - New pond stocking

Will be digging 3/4-1acre new pond in MI. Thinking of doing SMB,YP, and BG(res and/or hyb). Located in mid Michigan so pond will freeze over. Will res do ok with that cold? Will also stock fhm and gsh. Can I do a mix of hybrid/res or do you recommend something else . Will have few pallet structures for spawning in shallows as well as gravel bed, rock piles and artificial trees. Pond will be used for both swimming and fishing for the kids. Would like to catch some big bg but have read res are not as easy to catch so was thinking adding hybrids as well. Also I’ve seen a few different posts regarding HSB. Some say legal in MI some say they are not. my pond will not run off into any lakes or streams so that won’t be a problem, I’m just not sure if I can legally buy them? If I drove to oh/in will they suppliers sell them to me? If not Hsb do I need another predator fish at all? WE will they do ok? I’d just as soon not do cc as my kids are scared of them

Hello and welcome to PB Forum. A new pond has proven over and over that the first crop of fish stocking will grow and produce the best fishery for the life span of the pond. This is because the first stocking of fish has no competition and these fish usually grow the fastest and biggest due to having the most available foods with out competition except for siblings. Thus each fish gets more food. Our mentor the Pond Boss Lusk always says every day a fish does not fill its belly is a day it does not grow.

Your current plan is: ""Thinking of doing SMB,YP, and BG(res and/or hyb)." Other members here with SMB and BG (sunfish) will hopefully add helpful comments to this thread.

As you do more forum homework on this topic (google search pond boss forum and your topic or use PB Forum Search) you will read that SMB do not do very well with BG and most other panfish because SMB are not evolutionarily developed to have a main diet of can-lid shaped sunfish. They will eat them but not really thrive on them. Thus SMB have proven numerous times with forum members here to not do a good job of controlling recruitment of BG. The common sunfish suggested for northern ponds is is the pumpkinseed(PS) or RES because they have a less common problem of overpopulating and they both eat snails. IMO you are on the FAR northern range for RES and especially RES from southern producers such as those from AK where about all farm purchased RES are sourced. PS are basically only available from other ponds and lakes for pond owners in MI. IMO your only chance for RES real success in MI is to collect your broodstock from lakes in MI where RES have been stocked,... become winter adapted, and thrive. I have recently been involved in identifying what lakes in Southern MI have thriving populations of RES. Maybe I can re-find that information that I gave another MI new pond owner?

Here is a taste of PB threads about SMB spawning and a little BG info.
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=66673&page=1

For your reference there is a fish farm in central Ohio that has specklebelly sunfish which is a hybrid of BGXRES. He is currently raising them indoors on pellets. Supposedly these grow fast and big and have very limited egg hatch and recruitment. search this forum for some limited info about specklebelly sunfish

Based on your MI location and if it were my pond and my heart was set on SMB I would FIRST stock various minnows, YP and SMB. Laggis (Gobles MI) has excellent stock for pellet raised YP. He also has very good SMB. Actually most of Laggis' YP come from an Ohio producer. Maybe use papershell crayfish as added good forage food and to help with FA control if enough rock habitat is available. My articles about growing YP in ponds, and my lengthy YP experience says YP will grow large (12"-15" some to 16") in ponds and be ever bit as good of a panfish in northern ponds as BG or any sunfish. IMO kids will enjoy catching big, always wiling to bite, YP as much or better than catching BG.

Then after living with YP as the main panfish and / or anytime later you need something "more" you can always add some sort of sunfish (BG-HBG) and or LMB. However if you first stock the sunfish, you will not be able to rid the pond of BG or sunfish or LMB once added, The YP-SMB fishery pond will always fairly quickly decline once Sunfish(BG) - LMB are added. YP and SMB are not strong competitors with BG types and - LMB.

If you actually drive into OH for fish and you do not tell them your pond location nor your address most farms will probably sell you fish. Give them a fake address.
What you do with the fish is your business and liability. You can always say they are food fish to be grown indoors - aquaponics.

Josh-MI we need to talk!

You aren't far from me and I'd love to give help and perspective. Hopefully I can save you some problems by helping you avoid my mistakes. I'm on the SW edge of Grand Rapids. I stocked RES and they did not survive. Not sure if it was winterkill or disease, we caught them one year after stocking but never again. Bill can share research about lakes that were stocked and did keep a natural RES population but they are all in counties that are more southcentral and east in MI compared to Kent county where I live. I'd love to try again but sourcing RES in MI is not possible. You would have to drive them in from IN or Ohio.

I second the motion to get YP from Laggis. However I also strongly encourage you to spend time building forage base before adding predators. If you haven't started construction yet you have a lot of time to research and think while pond is built and fills. If you are still planning the location, depth, contours then you need to study the forum on pond building and be extra, EXTRA cautious you don't hire a 'dirtmover' or 'hole digger' or 'yep we built ponds before' type of contractor. Check out their work, check out other ponds they did and talk to the pond owners.

There is so much that goes in planning the site, preparing the contours, figuring out soil types, perhaps even adding a sealing agent while building pond if soils are not ideal clay. IF you have clay seek out a proper sheepsfoot roller system and talk to others.

There is ton to say about balancing a pond between swimming and fishing. They are kind of polar opposites but I'm sure you can meet somewhere in the middle. The best fishing pond and the best swimming pond cannot co-exist.

I'd like to share our efforts in sourcing fish, I may need some fish from Laggis and if one of us finds a way to get RES we can share resources.

I can explain more about HSB in MI although the sticking point is not the law but getting them. Fish haulers face penalties if they haul fish across state lines and don't follow all the rules. The rules about HSB are unwritten and hard to figure out. If you have no inlet or outlet then you are an exception to the rules but still there may be additional precautions to take.

Lots of forage options to discuss. If you can, use tilapia as forage and algae control. They get stocked in spring and die in fall so finding a local aquaponics shop that can supply you with breeding size pairs would really help.

I look forward to hearing more from you. Lets start with this. Can you share more about site prep, selecting dirt mover, and what your test holes showed? What is the surrounding property like?

CC

Josh:

I'm in the middle of Ohio. One of my ponds has SMB, YP, a few CC, and a very healthy, larger than I want (in numbers, but growing impressive in size) population of BGxRES. The latter were not stocked as Specklebelly Sunfish, but are rather the result of adding about 4 dozen male only BG to a breeding population of RES in 2008-2011. There may still be some pure RES left in the pond, but I can't swear to it, as the BGxRES (now in Fx generations that have an interesting mix of characteristics) are much more aggressive wrt taking feed and being caught.

I find BGxRES to be wonderful IF you have the predators or time to control their numbers. My SMB/large YP/CC predation is not sufficient to keep the BGxRES numbers where I want them, so I remove about 500 BGxRES by angling every year from this 1/2 acre pond. (Roughly 1/4 to 1/3 of these are eating sized - 6 1/2" to 9"; I return all BGxRES 9" and larger, with a current BGxRES record of 13.25" and just over 2 1/2 pounds.)

If you stock minnows for forage, SMB and YP, you could always add Northern-hardy RES or PS later if they become available. RES don't naturally occur North of the Wabash; IIRC the area of MI where they can survive "most years" is limited to the lower half of the LP and near the lakes.

P.S. Always listen to Bill Cody (especially wrt YP). I've found I agree with him 90% of the time, and I'm wrong a lot of the other 10%.

No gastronomic autopsies, but no snails have been observed for, let's see, at least ten years. (And I stocked snails in the pond before the fish went in.) Parasite load on the fish is IMO fairly low, too.

I'm not Theo, but as a fish hauler/seller I wish you luck on trying to get all male BG from a hatchery. A couple of problems that you will run into. 1) The fish won't be large enough for you to reliably sex them. 2) The hatchery won't have the time for anyone there to try to sex them, nor will they want to handle the fish that much before selling them. - The ones that aren't Male might develop fungus issues from the extra handling and maybe die, and that would be a loss fro the hatchery.

You can buy "X" amount of BG and sort them to just get "mostly" males, but you'd better have a fillet knife ready for the others, and see #1 above.....

Also in Mi. I don't know of anyone that sells regular BG, just HBG.

In Mi, IF your pond has a permanent inflow or outflow, even if it dumps onto a pasture, the pond owner has to get a pond stocking permit from the state. The state will tell you want fish you can or cannot put in your pond. The fish hauler has to have a copy of that permit in the truck when they cross the state line if they are coming from out of state, and probably have to have the permit in the truck even if they are within the state of Mi. Unless you have a piece of paper from the state saying that a stocking permit is not needed. The fish truck guy can get in the same amount of hot water that the pond owner will get into for not having the proper permit.

For instance in Ohio, there are certain parts of the state where you cannot stock HSB. Every state has it's own laws. In Illinois you cannot legally stock Tilapia in ponds. If you get caught in Illinois doing that, it could be a $250,000.00 fine and it is a violation of the Federal Lacy Act.....

I would go for it if it was legal. If the SMB/HSB cannot control the BG numbers, then add more HSB. If the BG in the pond surpass the gape of the HSB, then it's up to you to keep the population under control by fishing or trapping the excess numbers of BG.

YES HYBRID BG DO HAVE LIMITED REPRODUCTION ESPECIALLY IN THE EARLY LIFE OF THE POND. AS MORE GENERATIONS OF HBG RECRUIT I THINK A LARGER PERCENTAGE OF FEMALES DEVELOP THAT CAN RESULT IN MORE OFFPSRING PER YEAR. See above post by Theo Gallus.
If interested in using HBG, you should read and study this detailed thread from our Archives.
https://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=256325#Post256325

“”But will the smb need more minnows if it was just smb/perch?”” THIS COMES DOWN TO HOW BIG DO YOU WANT THE LARGER SMALLIES TO BE. THE MORE FOOD A FISH EATER GETS,,,, THE LARGER IT GROWS. The more forage fish present generally the larger the SMB and YP will become. If stocking pellet trained SMB-YP and they are fed high quality pellets routinely this helps grow bigger predators when minnow numbers are limited. Food as natural items or pellets grows more and bigger fish. Fish need some sort of abundant appropriate sizes of foods to grow. Always remember you are growing a crop. It doesn’t make much difference whether you are growing plants or animals.

Too many hogs feeding at the trough limits growth of all. To keep them growing you need to add more food or reduce the number of hogs. The management technique of keeping high numbers of small sized bass present results in low recruitment of the prey fish; be it sunfish &/or minnows.

For 7-10 years I had a local 0.3 acre pond with YP-HBG – SMB & a few HSB with weekly pellet feeding. This worked pretty good until a DO sag eliminated the SMB – HSB. Without restocking and some mismanagement the HBG offspring quickly overpopulated. Depending on predator density SMB and HSB I think could do a good job of controlling offspring of HBG because they have limited offspring. At times you may need to manually remove HBG offspring as noted above by Theo Gallus for his pond. When the predators are not adequately doing the JOB you need to HELP them to maintain the desired balance of fishes. Remember when using HSB they really should have a few added each year or two or three (ladder stocking). .

""I wanted to do lmb and smb but have been reading how that doesn’t work well either."”
LMB and SMB can be done together,, but for long term good numbers of smallies the SMB need to be ladder stocked to keep mixed SMB sizes present as time and mortality take its toll on old smallies. Our Form Member Sunil has used SMB with LMB and he could provide more insight for this topic.

Using HSB ….. “" would that be enough to help keep bg population in check?""
I think that SMB and or HSB will not do a good job of controlling BG; HBG yes but BG no. BG are too prolific with wide sizes to swallow for SMB&HSB. In dealing with BG one should ideally have LMB who are naturally evolved with best behaviour and extra large mouths to efficiently prey on sunfish. IMO it would take a high number of HSB/ac to control BG recruitment. HSB do NOT have as large of mouth as LMB and SMB. Mouth and gape of HSB is about 1/2 that of LMB.

As I recall deceased Form member George Glaisner (TX) used HSB in a small pond with BG. I do not remember how well BG were controlled. Other members should help verify this statement. HSB will need to be ladder stocked – a few each year to maintain mixed sizes of several year classes. Smaller predators are eating the small fish and larger predators are preferably eating the next larger sizes of prey. Density of HSB with BG would maybe need to be close to the standard or common LMbass stocking numbers per acre of 100/ac for controlling prolific BG. Other pond owners with HSB-BG should add information about this topic. Control of BG becomes more of a problem if there are other fusiform (slender) forage species also present with sunfishes. Would you rather swallow a can lid or hot dog?

In Odessa, I assume you will be getting the YP-SMB from Laggis Fish Farm, Gobbles MI. check with him for when he has these fish available so you have a good plan and schedule for fish stocking. I think he sells most of his pellet trained SMB in Fall and the YP are mostly in spring - but verify this with Laggis.

As esshup suggests get the forage fishes stocked first so they can multiply heavily before adding the YP-SMB. Summer spawning of FHM stocked at 5-8lbs per acre can at the end of summer produce 80-100 lbs of minnows / acre. This is a tremendous food source for the YP-SMB. I have had good luck stocking pellet trained YP (4-6") in spring with the initial stocking of minnows. If YP added with minnows add 12-20 lbs of FH per acre. The pellet trained YP will eat mostly pellets all summer while the minnows heavily reproduce all summer. Then in Fall stock the SMB. Some have waited until the YP have the first spawn before adding the SMB. Done this way the SMB grow like gang-busters.

I haven’t updated this thread in awhile but I switched locations of my pond to the front yard. It was dug this fall and is now completely full(and overflowing). It’s about .4 acres and 12-14’ deep(I was hoping for good enough ice to get on it this winter but hasn’t happened). I put in a couple pallet spawning beds. Have 1 more that I didn’t get in that I will try to get in this summer. I have 5-6 of the pvc trees, and 1 small rock piles(again was hoping for ice to put some more in) I have a beach with a mesh fabric liner with enough just enough sand to hold it down ((Will get more sand on it this summer) Was able to get posts in for a 36’ long dock that I’ll have to finish at some point. I placed some hardwood boards under it I in 2-3’ of water hoping it might be good for fhm spawning.. I’ve spoken with Leggis in regards to yp and sm. He said they would have both available in the spring. I’m going to send Ron crimson a message as well to see what he has. I was not able to put any fatheads in this fall but I have a pretty good resource to get them and pretty cheap. I would like some advice on stocking numbers. Leggis has yp 4-6” and 3-4”. I was thinking getting 100 of those-prob just go with 4-6” as price wasn’t that much more. Smb are 3-4” I was thinking 25 and then around 10-12lbs of fatheads. Maybe this fall get 5 or so Walleye just for a variety fish.

See if you can get 100 3"-5" Redear Sunfish, and if you can't get those get 100 Pumpkinseed Sunfish. They will eat snails in the pond, and the snails are a crucial part in the life cycle of white and yellow grubs and black spot disease (which really isn't a disease). https://www.in.gov/dnr/fish-and-wil...ldlife-diseases-in-indiana/fish-disease/

Don't let Dan talk you into stocking anything else and don't let him change your stocking numbers. DON'T stock Hybrid Bluegills either. The only thing I'd do if possible is increase the FHM numbers 2x or 3x, but first find out if they are farm raised or wild caught FHM. If wild caught, you should sort through them to make sure you have 100% fatheads and no bullheads, common carp, bluegill or other fish that you don't want to go in the pond. You only have one chance to do it right without having to push the reset button.

The FHM are the only things that the SMB will have to eat, and Dan's SMB aren't feed trained - at least none of the ones I've bought from him over the years have been pellet trained, no matter what he said............

We were typing at the same time. Reread my prior post. You don't need any more FHM. I don't think Laggis will have any SMB this spring - sells out in fall.

If you decide to get some NY crayfish you won't need very many (50-200) to get them established if you have some decent rocky cover / habitat. The crays will eat the FA growing on the rocky areas.

If you feed pellets to the YP from Laggis they will not eat very many FHM and you will be amazed how many FHM you have by Fall without SMB to eat them. Laggis' YP come from a very good Ohio grower with premium YP where I get my YP. Often I am there when Laggis is or was just there in late March. If you feed the YP very good pellets some will grow to 13"-14" with a few 15" if you don't eat them first.