I am begining to feel like "Jason the slasher" in what seems like my persitent attacks against Deb.
Firstly, Deb (aka Georgia Giant Man), I hope you are keeping track of (listing on paper) all the unanswered questions that you have been given as an assignment. I understand that answers to some of the questions will take quite some time to answer, but most of the questions should be able to be answered without a lot of actual testing and research. Granted you may need to do some paper shuffling for some of the answers. I trust that you do not "conveniently" forget to work on some of the questions.
Secondly, it seems to me that after creating this post that I am picking on you due to my relentless questioning, written confrontations and what may seem like badgering. That is not my intent; it is my way of teaching you and showing you and others that there are valid alternatives that are scientifically based.
Keep in mind that here, we are mainly discussing the stocking and subsequent management of Alligator’s small GG test pond which is the topic of this thread. And also remember our goal is to have as few offspring survive as possible and no offspring survival is best.
1. LMB (8”-12”) as controllers of GG. Deb’s quote said - “This would be possible, in my opinion, if one had the ability to "pick and choose" the LMB that stayed in the pond. But as we all know, the large mouth once aged have the ability to eat whatever they choose. If even a handful got past that 8-12 inch mark, you could be dealing with a substantial decrease in the population of the original stock. Now take the LMB out of the equation, throw in the HSB, maintain aeration and feed, give or take the dye (according to density of plankton), and I believe a reduction in numbers should not be a problem.”
My experience with LMB does not totally agree with your answer. I have experience with several ponds that contained LMB as a predator in combination with limited forage conditions such as hyb BG, or red ear sunfish as the sole forage fish besides young LMB. In another 0.2 ac pond that I renovated last year, it contained an aged (over 10 yrs) LMB population and a "handful" of pure bgill. In primarily all these ponds the maximum size of LMB has been 14” and sometimes the maximum size was smaller. Maximum size of LMB often seemed to be related to the density of the LMB in each pond. My point is that if crowded LMB do not have enough to eat, their growth will be very slow and their top end size will be relatively small (abt one pound +or – a few ounces). The more crowded the bass are, the slower their growth will be especially with limited forage conditions such as those produced by GG’s or hyb bgill as forage fish. Crowded LMB around the maximum size of 12”-14” long require a decent number of larger sized forage items (3”-4”) to efficiently continue growth. If these crowded bass are forced to eat a limited supply of fingerling hyb Bgill (GG) one can not expect them to grow very much, if at all. Plus if the LMB are overly crowded, their top end size will LIKELY be less than 13”; maybe sizes of 10”-11" will prevail. It is also very doubtful that in a pond of 75'x75' the LMB will be able to get very large. LMB less than 13” will not, as Deb suggests, eat “whatever they chose”.
2. Deb also says – “If even a handful got past that 8-12 inch mark, you could be dealing with a substantial decrease in the population of the original stock”.
I doubt very much this would happen for Alligator’s test GG situation esp in a small pond only 75'x75'. Even if several bass happen to grow (probably very slowly) beyond the 12” mark, these larger bass would never be able to eat any of the original stock of Test Growth Ggiants (due to GG’s hopefully large size). As I see it if the larger bass developed they would do nothing to the overall study except bias it toward causing the overall average size of the GG to be GREATER or larger. This would happen because the larger bass could possibly eat some of the slower growing and smaller Ggiants. Almost every population has runts and I assume that a small percentage of each batch of GG are comparatively “runts”. THIS GOES BACK TO ONE OF MY EARLIER QUESTIONS IN MY HOMEWORK QUESTIONS FOR DEB, - What is the variability of growth rate in each population or batch of GG?. For example: Let’s optimally grow 1000GG. After 3 or 4 years what is largest and smallest and how are the sizes biomodally distributed? This could be easily checked in one of Ken’s YOY or grow-out ponds that has been drained.
3. Deb says- Too often I have seen customers who stocked low on the GG, followed 6 months or so later with LMB, fished out the original stock of GG, and needed to either cage raise small GG or stock larger and more expensive ones to prevent the established LMB from having an expensive dinner thus wasting the customer's money.
This is a valid point for most, but I do not think it really applies for Alligator and his test GG growth situation and esp in a 75’x75’ pond where it can be easily drained or renovated at any time.
4. Deb says- “ Remember please that a large number of our customers do not do aquaculture or pond management as a full time job, or even has an addictive habit. They are not interested in culling out the correct sizes at the correct times.”
I contend that occasional trapping and or fishing and selectively removing subsequent GG offspring to supplement those that the predators may have missed is not that big of a job or that time consuming. I do not want to be condescending here but, If one is not able to do these SIMPLE, pond management tasks, then they have no business managing a pond, especially one that is stocked to over capacity with the entire GG program or “philosophy”. To do that successfully, is in my opinion, not a job for the casual pond owner. Alligator especially since he as some pond experience, should have no problem with these simple tasks of occasionally monitoring or culling for the GG offspring escapees in a 75’x75’ pond. In 1 to 6 acres, now that is a different story.
5. Deb says- “Together in a pond these two fish (GG&HSB) have the most potential for individual growth without contributing to the "extinction" in the pond of the other.”
Everyone keep in mind here we are discussing Alligator’s testing of GG growth rates and not the general customer of Ken et.al.. I doubt that the combination of GG & LMB would contribute to extinction of either fish in our test pond. IMPT NOTE - Either predator will probably work in Alligator’s test pond.
However, I think the LMB would be a better predator than the HSB in Alligator’s test pond. Why?
A. LMB will be able to eat more of the larger sized offspring that may escape the predation of HSB “storm troupers”.
B. HSB have been proven in many fishery studies to not be efficient predators of sunfishes for several reasons previously discussed on this forum.
C. Alligator’s test pond could likely develop a weed problem either submerged or the filamentous algae type. In my opinion LMB would be a better suited predator in this case compared to HSB which has limited predatory efficiency in “weedy” or non-open water situations.
D. LMB after 2 or 3 yrs are likely to spawn in the test pond and these small bass (YOY –4”) would be more efficient predators of the 0.5”-1” GG than the larger 12”-14” HSB. Original stock of LMB will in my experience eliminate the majority of the YOY bass after the first full year. I have dealt with numerous LMB only ponds.
E. LMB are a lot less likely to eat pellets than HSB. I suspect that predators who readily eat pellets are not going to be very effective as predators of small fish. At least it works that way with yellow perch.
F. LMB have larger mouths (gape) than the gape of an identical sized HSB. When considering mouth size alone, I contend that a 12" LMB will be able to eat a wider size range of hyb sunfish compared to even a 14" long HSB. For example a 14" HSB may ingore a 3.2" GG but a 12" LMB would ambush it.
Deb, and those interested in this topic, I have a question. Let’s step back and re-examine the goal of Alligator’s Study. I assume the goal of the Alligator test pond is to determine the GG growth rate and since Alligator has a very small pond, could he or someone else stock just GG in the pond, feed ample amounts of food, and each year DRAIN or otherwise completely survey the pond, do a check of growth, eliminate all offspring and restock just the GG adults? (Maybe Ken has used this same techinque)?. Do this repetitively (annually) until one is satisfied. A University may well do it this way since their work force is student study and cheap labor. I don’t think the ACTUAL goal is to check GG growth with using only Ken’s management / stocking philosophy. Do we have to check optimum GG growth using the only way that you know how to do it or have been taught to do it? Sometimes there are other ways to do something or achieve an end based on the actual goal that has been set for the project. What is Alligator’s goal for testing GG growth? We should re-examine this goal and the methods to be used. Maybe Greg G, Lusk, Bruce, Cecil, Theo, Dave W. or another will have an idea on this. Are any of them following this topic? I know Theo is!.
PS Deb says - ….”was your term "mischievous females" an indirect comment (or compliment) toward me?” Wishful thinking? Feeling guilty? I consider the female GG as pests and responsible for complicating one’s goal of raising huge hybrid sunfish. Eliminate the female GG from the equation and growing large GG will be much easier.
