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Several months ago the topic/idea of a rolling BG spawn (in contrast to multiple separate spawns) was discussed at the link below. http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=23217&fpart=1 BG spawn and stunting N-S http://www.pondboss.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=20;t=002198 Now we get to address the idea in the context of the LMB spawn. I think if the question was asked most here would answer that LMB spawn once a year and that the spawn lasts about 3-4 weeks +-. A recent study compiled the data and found some interesting results on a rolling spawn (with spawning activity highs and lows ) of different lengths from 30 days to 5 mths. The time length shrunk the farther north the survey went. Minn. - 30 days mid May - June Ill. -- 45 days May 1 - June 15 Nth. Car. - 60 days Ap.15 - June 15 Ga. - same as S. C. Ala. - late Mch. - mid May 60 days Fla. cent. - mid Feb. - May 1 75 days Fla. sth. - mid Dec. - May 15 5 mths. We also discussed aging fish a few weeks ago by using scales and as CB1 brought up otoliths to determine yearly age, both by growth rings. Interesting in this survey age was determined based on daily otoliths rings (ear bones)which exist (are visible) for the first 120 days in yoy LMB. After that they are to hard to see/use. The authors note that changing weather , water temps. and levels can effect/delay spawning. Thoughts or comments ?
Last edited by ewest; 02/15/08 10:31 PM.
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The time length shrunk the farther north the survey went. WRT the window of opportunity (lasting longer down South), is the length of time for each location measured for one body of water (seems screwy in light of the CW) or for all the possible ponds/lakes (makes more sense to me - varying conditions = different optimum times in different waters)?
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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Theo :
Part is a compiled article on info out of several reports the rest is from a several year study on multi-lakes (6) in Fla.. On the other than Fla. lakes it is reported data/studies from some specific lakes in each state (some I left out to reduce length). To be clear , these are the authors of the studies ideas/points not my conclusions, but edited in my words. Jan. 2006 Bass Times , Dr. Mike S. Allen (research advisor PhD U.of F. and Mark Rogers (PhD. student U.of F.) The article is making a general point not saying ,for example avg . of all lakes in Ill. is X . They note that certain events as set out above can change the situation.
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Ewest -- very interesting summary. Nice job. Now, here's a thought. If we really want to understand what happens, let's look longitudinally as well as latitudinally. At any one of those given locations, have there been multiple studies so we can see the range in spawning duration (or hatching dates) at that approximate latitude? Do you see my point? Perhaps studies at multiple lakes at approximately the same latitude/location?
Subscribe to Pond Boss MagazineFrom Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
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Dave :
I will add the following which may help. The authors did a study in just Fla. lakes (6) and they gathered reported info from other studies for the rest of the article. There is some longitudinal info. In 2 mid Fla. lakes Harris and Monroe 50 miles different in long. In one year they were the same in another year one lake had a 4 mth spawn the other 2 mths. In the compiled article there is also some long. info. They have a Ga. lake and a N.C. lake not to far apart which have the same results. They have 2 that I am not familiar with , one Lake George in Minn. and undefined results from Mich. lakes with similar 21-30 day spawns. My guess is this will be turned into one paper with much more data than these 2 short companion articles.
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That's sort of what I was thinking. Instead of a "straight line" from long spawn in the south to short spawn in the north, I wondered about a "triangle" shape. Down south, can spawning range from short duration to long duration in various waters. Then, as you move north, the duration has to get narrower just out of necessity with the short growing season. If this was true, then it would be fun to see what causes the "range" in durations at southern or mid-latitudes.
Subscribe to Pond Boss MagazineFrom Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
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Dave :
Now I understand.
I would like to see the data from the lakes along the I-20 corridor form SoCal to Atlanta. There are a bunch in Air. NM. , Tex. , 2 in La , 2 in Miss. , and several in Ala. and Ga. Then skip up to I-40 form L.A. to the east coast through Okla. , Ark. , Tenn. and North Carolina.
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Doc Dave and Eric, what kind of data would you use to find the cause? It seems that you would have to analyze locations, weather (both normal and abnormals), etc. over periods of time. That's been somewhat done.
Are there any other factors like new or old lakes; current biomass? I've always been interested in the "explosion" of a new lake. It seems that you would have to hold that/those aside.
Then you have years where, due to weather, females absorb the eggs and you lose a years age class.
Sounds like a job for aspiring grad students.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
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Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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DD :
That is what started all this was a grad student PhD looking at the topic -- he went S to N --now he needs to go W to E but something tells me U of Fla. won't pay for that. But you are right there is a lot that can change things for a lake or a year.
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DD -- right on target! I was thinking similar things. Weather certainly is a biggie. What about the spawns from a high density, slow growing, mostly small LMB population vs. a low density, fast growing, mostly big LMB population? So, the same old story -- nature and nurture?
Subscribe to Pond Boss MagazineFrom Bob Lusk: Dr. Dave Willis passed away January 13, 2014. He continues to be a key part of our Pond Boss family...and always will be.
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Research on natural environments and living organisms is always constrained by exogenous factors(outside influences).
It has the same constraints as an economic model. But, at least, those guys can always start out saying "all other things considered equal". Of course they never are equal and thats what makes economics such an arcane study. They, like weathermen, almost never get it right and none of them agree until after the fact.
Best efforts, best practices, math models and large group statistics are about all you have to go on. No matter what you do there are always those who rush in saying "Yeah, but".
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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DD I don't think I have ever heard you so professorial. Good points though. Lots of factors in addition to temps. -- photo period , water quality (chemical and visibility [ muddy water]) , fish condition , forage base condition (spawn suppression) etc. Think about this , these are just a bunch of factors that effect the timing of an event. If they were all the same ( as in all other things being equal) would you have one spawn day/week (all at the same time)? That may be part of the reason it is spread out in lakes where the water temps. allow a longer possible period. In that situation the other factors become more of an effect because the constraints of minimum water temps. are removed. Thus more options which are effected by other factors (than temp.) and thus more potential for extended spawn time and variation based on the other factors in southern lakes.
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Another factor involving rolling spawn. It's not unusual to hear reports of LMB spawning at one end of a lake before the other end. This makes a real mess of the law of large numbers. Wait a minute; I just got that backwards.
Eric, I had just about finished cleansing my mind of that long haired stuff. Then, while thinking about research, it all came snapping back. Kinda painful, but therapy should help.
It's not about the fish. It's about the pond. Take care of the pond and the fish will be fine. PB subscriber since before it was in color.
Without a sense of urgency, Nothing ever gets done.
Boy, if I say "sic em", you'd better look for something to bite. Sam Shelley Rancher and Farmer Muleshoe Texas 1892-1985 RIP
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Don't forget about altitude! Just 50 mi. from me they're growing season is 30 days shorter!
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On the subject of spawning, what about channel catfish? Do they reproduce well in a 2.5 acre pond with max depth 17'? Is it necessary to provide some type of structure? Pond is in East Texas.
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CC spawning requires some type of spawning cavities; in the absence of such natural ones as submerged stumps or holes in the bank, it is (greatly) enhanced by artificial cavities such as buckets, tiles, etc. sized for the CC present.
Successful CC spawning in the presence of other fish species is rare. CC fry show up later and slower than the fry of almost all other fish, and are easily picked off in a multi-species pond.
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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