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I think California Dept. of Fish and Game would freak over Tiger Muskies coming in. The've recently spent 10's of millions of dollars trying to eradicate northern pike from a lake not far from here(two different times).
I do plan on feeding the fish and the channel catfish would be fished heavily as we love to eat em. DD
"I'd never be a member in a club that would have a guy like me as a member"....Groucho Marx
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in a pond that size, the catfish may become hard to catch....keep that in mind, ask catmandoo about it. some additional 2c.......if you can afford it, build another pond just for catfish (and gsf :D), and dont mix the cats w/ the bass/bg pond. yer right that the dept. of F&G would freak over muskies. i wish tilapia were readily available and "legal". if you want big bass, i would pursue getting a permit to stock tilapia.
GSF are people too!
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Ha Lake Davis, you want to see a typical government Chinese fire drill, that was it. Rotenone the entire lake, kill lake , kill local economy, oops pike still there. Somebody sabotaged them and put them back in, no they were just upstream and you are basically another incompetent government agency trying to blame incompetence on unknown source. Kill everything again, hope for best. What a fiasco.
I know that guy in Elk Grove, not exactly Mr. Happy. I ask him some basic questions and he gets all bent out of shape for no reason. Then I only do commercial business. I decided not to deal with him because if he talked like that in person I'd walk away pissed off. I think he is the new owner as the old one sold.
I'd start off with bg and channel cats in same pond. I'd wait til next season for bass. You should contact me.
Last edited by The Pond Frog; 01/26/10 08:48 PM.
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First off, thanks for the update Duckdude! I have talked to the guy from Freshwater Fish Co. in Elk Grove (I think I interrupted his vacation in Hawaii). Understandably he was very short on the phone, but it sounded like he was still in business, but only had northern strain LMB, RES and was vague about his BG. When I asked about Florida LMB and his subspecies of BG he got a little defensive. Yep that is the guy that DIED and I purchased our fish from. He is a "different" sort of fellow (I know, I know, children who live in glass houses...) but IMHO had good quality fish at reasonable prices. DIED and I both tried contacting several fish farms, most either don't answer their phone or won't return phone calls. Stocking fish in Northern California can be quite frustrating.
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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I think he is the new owner as the old one sold. So the Freshwater Fish Co did in fact sell?
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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"stocking a couple tiger muskie to keep the small bass thinned along with the smaller bluegill (recommended in a recent PB article)"
Was that suggested as a part of an initial stocking of a pond?
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If we are talking about the same place. I had 6 right around my area. Two folded, one changed operators and practically got shut down by the state, rightfully so. The best one was a striped bass and sturgeon place, got robbed, then state said stripers were eating salmon and stopped stocking them and they went out of business. One is still buzzin along and one was on the market for sale I think after owner passed, Freshwater Fish Co. It got pulled off the market and the new operator is not being nominated for Mr. Congeniality.
I could find out the exact circumstances. They may have been taken over by a Canadian Coporation. I can barely get anything locally any longer. Baitfish, catfish and sturgeon. I have some pond maintenance down that way within a couple of weeks. I'll visit two and post my findings here.
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Sounds like my experiences with the local aquaculturists is pretty much the status quo. If CA wasn't so lawsuit/permitting happy, then maybe more of the reputable guys could stay in business. It's amazing that it's easier to get sturgeon for a pond than bass, bluegills and redears!
Because of the frustrations that come with talking directly to these people, I've begun asking them all if they have a website that I could visit. My thinking is that then I won't really know how caustic the person is that I'm dealing with and I won't feel bad about sending them my business. The problem is that out of the eight or so that I've spoke to only two have websites.
Now, I'm no wiz at business, but I would think that this would be the most important way of getting my name out there. Without the poorly updated list from DFG how do people find these guys?
I'm convinced that this pond business is only for the tough skinned and hard headed! DD
"I'd never be a member in a club that would have a guy like me as a member"....Groucho Marx
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You are walking in my old worn out shoes. In my almost vast experience dealing with these guys in California, up North, they are allergic to the web, hate being bothered on the phone and don't want business. Yes, that State of Cal list is very outdated. The best way for me is just to directly stop in and say hello. I have found in person the people tend to be a bit friendlier rather than thinking you are jerking them around on the phone wasting thier valuable time. And employees are far easier to deal with then people who answer the phone. I need some fish also, as always. I'll visit two and get availability, prices, contact info, whatever I can Mr. Duck. I also have duck club customers who I make dec weights for and we are going to start millet planting this season.
Last edited by The Pond Frog; 01/27/10 11:35 AM.
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Pond Frog, Thanks for the help. We California pond guys need to form support group!
By the way, are you doing Jap Millet or watergrass? In my "real" life, I'm a wildlife biologist with the government. I work on the restoration and enhancement of private land habitats in the north valley. I mostly work on wetlands (duck clubs), since that's what I'm surrounded by.
We may have crossed paths at some point. DD
"I'd never be a member in a club that would have a guy like me as a member"....Groucho Marx
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We are going to try a mixed millet blend. There are some hybrids that supposedly outperform ordinary Jap millet. One is called Chipawa millet. A bit pricey but I think it is worth a try if you are going to go through all of the effort. Supposedly it produces much more millet and later in the season. We may go for the trifecta and put one of the colored millets in. I think black but I would have to take a look at my notes as that project is late in the Summer.
Our goal is to have a long lasting different flowering time millet availability. Don't want to get to far off the topic here as I am not bus proof. I'm talking about up near Delevan. Lambertville? Hopefully you were not involved with the maybe ongoing Lake Davis fiasco. If so, I retract my incompetent statements.
Back to your pond. If you could get them, what would be your stocking goals as far as size, quantity and timing? If I remember correctly, you were thinking LMB (F1), BG, RES, CC.
Last edited by The Pond Frog; 01/27/10 12:23 PM.
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Pond Frog, No offense on the incompetent government statements, I hear it even from my family. Luckily for me, I work for the US Gov so I wasn't involved with the Lake Davis fiasco and I actually get paid for working on Fridays. My office is at the Sacramento NWR and I work on many of the clubs in the Lambertville area. What a small world.
As for the pond stocking, I'm most likely looking for fingerling size (1"-3") fish to keep the costs down. If I could get some slightly bigger (4"-6") at a reasonable rate then I'd go that route.
I've read a few places that it's okay to stock predatory and prey fish together as long as they're similar size. I'm not sure if this is true or not. Someone else may have an different opinion.
I'd like to get them in as soon as possible, however the pond is pretty muddy from the rain/run-off and it doesn't have much in the way of insects or plants for that matter. I had it halfway done last year when it ended up filling with rain water. Sometime in the early to mid-Spring the pond came alive with tree frog tadpoles and invertabrates. I'm expecting similar results this year.
The stocking rate that I'm considering is: F1 Largemouths- 125 Florida Largemouths- 25 Redear Sunfish- 300 Coppernose Bluegill- 700 Channel Catfish- 75 Fathead Minnows- 1,000
"I'd never be a member in a club that would have a guy like me as a member"....Groucho Marx
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Maybe I can get some pointers from you up there sometime. Trade for some fish work. I'd love to have an expert duck opinion about anything. But we can talk about operation millet and other things down the road. There is a decent California pond stocking guidelines out there. Out of UC Davis. They are very strong on such matters. They have slightly different numbers, and say to put cc and bg in first, in Spring and next year establish LMB. I cna get you that doc if you desire, or its URL. It's a pdf file.
Looks like you added quite a bit to the plate. I don't even know if I can cook all that up, but with my in person visits within a week or so I will have that shopping list in hand. I can also transport to save you money if that helps. Maybe we can trade some services.
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I'd love to get your opinion sometime on the management of my pond. I can't say that I'm the "expert duck" guy around here but I've been doing it for a few years anyway.
I've looked up the UC Davis guidelines and seen other similar recommendations. It seems as a general rule the stocking ratio is roughly 10 BG/RES per bass and any where from 100-200 bass per acre depending on the pond. It sounds like I may be high on the side of predator fish since I'm considering CC.
My pond is 1.25 acres and isn't very productive at the moment. I'm hoping that will all change soon. I also plan on feeding the fish and fertilizing as needed.
"I'd never be a member in a club that would have a guy like me as a member"....Groucho Marx
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I think you can run up the LMB/BG ratio to 15%. Maybe bump up the CC, which should be calculated seperately anyway. I think the key or starting point is minnows. I'd say 2,000, minimum a month before you plant anything else. Would you consider Gambusia instead of fatheads? I'm sure you can figure out the pros and cons there, if not, I'll point them out. Western guidelines say if you want to plant all in one season, get those minnows in first.
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Those stocking numbers are very high if you want a decent chance at trophy bluegill as you mentioned earlier. Those numbers are better for trophy bass, but will also not give you growth rates on the sunfish as good as you would get with lower sunfish numbers. And those numbers are very high, period, unless you fertilize or feed.
And, stocking the bluegill a year before the bass is another method that is great for the bass but will limit the bluegill growth due to higher numbers of them.
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I've read a few places that it's okay to stock predatory and prey fish together as long as they're similar size. I'm not sure if this is true or not. Someone else may have an different opinion.
That depends on your goals and the location. For example in cold climates (N. US ) BG are often added a year after LMB and FH due to the potential for BG stunting. In the deep south it is common to stock FH in March and BG/CNBG/RES , and small LMB in June. It is also common in the south to Stock BG etc in the Fall and LMB the next spring/summer. This is using small stocker fish (2 inch) for all but the FH which are adults. There are other ways and methods using larger fish. These are also for a balanced pond population. The methods used for intentionally misbalancing the population ( ie trophy LMB or trophy BG) are different. There are other factors as well such as feeding. In warm water locations the general idea is you don't want your initial brood forage fish (other than FH)to be eaten before the forage base is established. In cold water locations the idea is to avoid BG stunting. Of course this changes as the species change ( tilapia , shad , GShiners etc).
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Actually the numbers he came up with are per acre from a study at UC Davis CA. And his pond is 25% larger. This is our local study, from the top ag university in the region. They are based on a high pond fertility rating. Even if you went average its 100-750 per surface acre, but he has 1 1/4. Personally I'd start there, but it's duck's pond so that's what he wants. The eventual problem there is the pond's fish bio mass capacity are going to be exceeded. Going to have to cull everything steadily or you can't get trophy fish. And these numbers are based on harvest of fish moderately to heavily.
They even have a Western stocking strategy. Minnows early Spring. Everything else, one month later. But CC can be done anytime before fall. The alternative is to get minnows and BG to spawn a couple of times and then put LMB in. My best results have been forage first. Let them find cover, spawn once if possible. Introduced bass have plenty of food.
UC Davis might be relatively unknown outside our area because they have a dink div 2 sports program, but they draw a lot of grads in, world class students, have state of the art research facilities and a bunch of money flowing in. When they put out a paper on ecology or the environment, I respect it.
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Does the level of your pond fluctuate much Duckdude?
Down in El Dorado county we have huge fluctuations in pond levels due to the long hot and dry summers. I'm guessing that you'd be in the same situation unless you bump with well water or something. DIED's pond and mine will drop 7 to 8 vertical feet from end of the spring rains to the beginning of fall rains.
JHAP ~~~~~~~~~~ "My mind is a raging torrent, flooded with rivulets of thought cascading into a waterfall of creative alternatives." ...Hedley Lamarr (that's Hedley not Hedy)
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Yup, I lose 8-9 feet per season. Middle year of the drought 2008, over 10 feet. That is a very good question.
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It sounds like the UC Davis study was focused entirely on growing large bass - if so, then that isn't in line with Duckdude's stated goals. If the goal of the study was to develop a balanced population of good-sized bluegill and bass both, it would seem odd to me that the results are much more in line with what pond managers in other areas of the country, specifically areas with long growing seasons as Duckdude states he has, recommend for misbalanced ponds geared solely toward trophy bass.
IMO that's the key, as Ewest mentions above - intentionally skewing the pond solely toward the optimal state for trophy bass, which is overpopulated bluegill, is very different from stocking numbers which have a better chance of resulting in a balanced population. If he stocks 1,000 sunfish per acre, the bass will never get the sunfish under control without a considerable poundage of sunfish being harvested by anglers each year; granted, you mention that the study was done with moderate to heavy harvest figured on, as well as high fertility. To me it just makes more sense not to put oneself behind the eight ball right off the bat in regards to one's goals, but rather to stock in a manner that gives one the best chance of realizing said goals. Just my $.02.
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Initial stocking of 2 inch fish. Commonly issued suggestions.
2000 BG/CNBG/RES per acre are suggested for trophy LMB ponds.
1000 BG/CNBG/RES per acre are suggested for balanced LMB/BG ponds.
The number of LMB per acre depends on the goal:
100 LMB per acre for a balanced pond.
Anywhere from 30-60 LMB per acre for a trophy LMB pond
This is for fertile ponds in warm climates (long growing season).
If the pond is infertile the numbers are cut in half.
If additional species are included the numbers need to be adjusted. You have to leave room for growth to carrying capacity.
I have not seen written research or presentations from fisheries scientists on the stocking numbers for a trophy BG pond. There are different ways to get that and I am not sure relying on stocking numbers is the best way. For example you don't want the first in BG eaten as they will have the best growth rate. Its their babies you want to limit. Feeding also makes a big difference in raising trophy BG.
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Eric: I've got a question on carrying capacity, but I'll start a different thread. I read the archives about it and my head is reeling and my eyes are slowly focusing on the screen.
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1,000 bluegill per acre is not quite a standard recommendation for a balanced pond. Most state game and fish agencies recommend half that number of bluegill per acre for a balanced pond.
Last edited by Walt Foreman; 01/27/10 10:47 PM.
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