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Lunker
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Lunker
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Hmmmm...that's interesting, big differences. Carrier GT-PY (50YD) Two-Stage Puron(R) Series ClimateMaster Fow Controllers Thermostat: Honeywell VisionPRO TH800 Series (we changed our thermostat to this as it is more user friendly and shows when strips kick on etc)
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Moderator Ambassador Field Correspondent Lunker
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I was thinking of switching to Geo myself and I'm interested in both of your systems, plus what you've done to insulate each of your houses.
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Hmmmm...that's interesting, big differences. Carrier GT-PY (50YD) Two-Stage Puron(R) Series ClimateMaster Fow Controllers Thermostat: Honeywell VisionPRO TH800 Series (we changed our thermostat to this as it is more user friendly and shows when strips kick on etc) I compared the specs our systems and they are very similar other than brand name. Ours is an Econar. We have the same Honeywell thermostat. We are down comparing loop length, loop water temperature, square foot area heated/cooled, structure insulation and structure tightness, etc. Here is our data: Total pond loop length including feeder lines: 1900 feet Water temperature in the loop location: 40-41 F degrees Area heated/cooled approximately: 1800 square feet Ceiling height: 8 feet Ceiling insulation on average: 15 inches Wall insulation on average: 6 inches Tightness: (on a scale on 1-5) 4
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I was thinking of switching to Geo myself and I'm interested in both of your systems, plus what you've done to insulate each of your houses. I think my response above should help.
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Dwight, what do you mean by "tightness?" (No need for any hijacks here - you guys know who you are!) I have heard of geothermal, but never really understood it. I've enjoyed reading and learning about it in this thread as it may be something I'd consider doing when we build on the farm one day.
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Dwight, what do you mean by "tightness?" I got it wrong, it is airtightness (Brettski's word). It is the quality of the seal of your windows, siding, etc. from outside temperatures and wind.
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Thanks for the "duh" moment, Dwight! Seems pretty obvious now that you explain it to me! Thanks. I'm going to do some research on geo systems. I think we have an outfit nearby that does them and I know the guys somewhat, so they may be a good source of info as well.
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Thanks Dwight. Airtightness is my biggest problem, plus I don't think my walls are insulated as well as they could be, but I tried, I really tried.
The house is 110+ years old, and when I re-sided the house I tore off 2 of the 4 layers of siding. I then drilled holes in all the wall cavities to blow in insulation, but at some point in the past, someone put fiberglass insulation in the walls. I couldn't get any cellulose into the walls other than the one South facing wall. The living room is actually an addition, made from hollow block. I firred out the block, and put 1" to 2" thick foam sheets on the walls, then 1/2" OSB. That brought the block wall out to the same level as the origional house exterior walls, and I then wrapped/taped the house with Tyvek.
All the wood single pane double hung windows have been replaced within the past 2 years, and I blew 20" of cellulose in the attic last Fall. The biggest problem is the cold that migrates up into the house from the crawlspace. Hopefully, the plans for next year is to re-do all the supply water pipes with Pex, and upgrade the galvanized pipe to cast iron drain system with Plastic to Cast iron, then call someone in to foam the underside of all the floors and heat ducts. Currently, the heading ducts run under the house in the crawlspace (counterflow forced air furnace) and they are single wall uninsulated metal ducts.
My only concern with going to Pex vs. copper is any rodents chewing on them. Right now, the water pressure in the house is terrible because it was put together with whatever galvanized pipe they could get, from 3/4" to 3/8". I helped things a bit by removing the 3/8" galvanized pipe they had feeding the water heater and changing that to 3/4". The current plan is to go with Pex and not have any copper fittings in the crawlspace that could freeze and crack. The downside to that is if the Pex freezes, I can't use an open flame as a heat source to thaw the pipe.
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Lunker
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Dwight, See below: (thoughts)
Total pond loop length including feeder lines: 2500 feet Water temperature in the loop location: 52 F degrees (in Nov) Area heated/cooled approximately: 2500 square feet living Ceiling height: 90 feet (with two rooms with cathedral ceilings (18') Ceiling insulation on average: R38 rating (batting) Wall insulation on average: R30 rating (batting)(3/4 brick home/siding sitting on a hill with no wind breakers) Exterior walls are 6". Tightness: (on a scale on 1-5) 4
Last edited by MarkECIN; 01/08/10 06:55 AM.
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Dwight, See below: (thoughts)
Total pond loop length including feeder lines: 2500 feet Water temperature in the loop location: 52 F degrees (in Nov) Area heated/cooled approximately: 2500 square feet living Ceiling height: 90 feet (with two rooms with cathedral ceilings (18') Ceiling insulation on average: R38 rating (batting) Wall insulation on average: R30 rating (batting)(3/4 brick home/siding sitting on a hill with no wind breakers) Exterior walls are 6". Tightness: (on a scale on 1-5) 4 I am going on the assumption that your ceiling height is 9 feet, not 90 feet. All of those specifications tell me that all is well in your design and implementation. Something must be amiss elsewhere. Without actually observing your system in operation I suspect: One or both of your circulation pumps are bad, otherwise not operating properly or there could be a blockage somewhere in either or both sides. One of your compressor stages is not functional or is functioning at a very low level or both of them are functioning out of spec. I personally would have someone come and test the system, possibly a 3rd party if your heating contractor says everything is good. I am no expert on the inner workings of a Geothermal system, though I do enjoy a good old fashioned troubleshoot.
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Lunker
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Thanks, yes 9' -- I'm thinking in your line of getting another opinion to check it out. I don't buy the heat strip theory as that was option--I didn't have to put that in but choose to.
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Let us know what you find out.
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A point of comparison,or not. The heat load is based on cubic area among other things. There is ~60% difference in the size of these two structures depending on the actual area of the cathedral ceilings in Mark's house.
I ran an on line heat load calculator for two simplified structures with the only differences being location and size. 30x60x8 in Deluth, Mn. and 50x50x9 in Evansville, In. The In. location showed a 13% greater heat load, accounting for climatic differences.
Of course this does not really tell us anything, but concluding that something is wrong with Mark's system may be a bit premature based on the very simplified data set provided.
Having it checked by a third party is a good idea, especially if you have a competent 3rd party. I had an energy audit run on a customer's home we were doing some unrelated remodeling on about 15 yrs. ago. The tech found a large ~.5ft/2 hole in the return air pulling unconditioned air out of the attic. This was about a week after his AC tech had checked out and blessed the system.
Life’s mostly scars and souvenirs
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Plan - I have my second check yearly check this Monday by the installer. This will also give some more stats on the system performance at present along with incoming/outgoing temperatures of the pond loops. Then, we will have a 'second' person check it. We are learning this geo system more and more and still feel there is something not quite right as my hubby and I both go to different forums and everyone seems to not have to use the strips (or as much). My hubby still thinks it's with the pond loops....not the unit. IMO - if i'm going to pay a couple of months of high electric bills and for them to keep coming check it out--where's my savings? I'll let you know what gives.
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With your Geo systems, how many gpm does the pump circulate thru the pond loops?
Do you know if that figure would be different for an open system?
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Actual flow on our system a bit over 11 GPM. I am not sure on an open system, but I think it would be similar for a like sized system.
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Fingerling
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I have had GEO since 1978. I now have two units, they were both open loop drawing from my well. About 3 years ago I put in a closed loop system in my lake for the larger, newer unit. My temperature at my vents dropped from 104 too 80 degrees. I think the reason is the lake temp is 37 degrees vs 61 degrees well temp. I measured yesterday and the difference between the two units is almost 20 degrees. I am wondering why Dwight didn't put the pipe in trenches instead of a lake loop. It would seem to me that the temp in the trenches would be warmer than the lake. we are in the process of building a new lake on new property and I am thinking I will put the pipe in the ground instead of the lake. I am sure there is a reason. thanks for listening Wayne Cooper Charlotte
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I am wondering why Dwight didn't put the pipe in trenches instead of a lake loop. Way lower excavation costs?
"Live like you'll die tomorrow, but manage your grass like you'll live forever." -S. M. Stirling
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I am wondering why Dwight didn't put the pipe in trenches instead of a lake loop. Sand and gravel are poor conductors of heat. Water is a good conductor of heat. The difference in the ground water temperature and the water temperature on the bottom of the pond is only 4 degrees. Since the ground loop would have been in sand and gravel, there was no contest.
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...I think the reason is the lake temp is 37 degrees vs 61 degrees well temp. I measured yesterday and the difference between the two units is almost 20 degrees... Wayne Cooper Charlotte My hubby just checked our pond temperature yesterday, it was 35 degrees at the bottom so we don't think there would be much transfer....we're starting to think we should have put it in the ground...our geo is just not keeping up in the winter...the heat strips are being used often and even in the 30s--not long, but do come on...just doesn't seem right...summertime we don't have problems... Now I should say we do have a windmill in our pond that circulates the water and keeps the top from freezing--does anyone have a windmill in the pond along with their geo...???
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If your house was a story and a half and you now have two units would you need two seperate closed loop systems? Or would there be a way that you could run two systems off of one loop.
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Tech came out but has to return tomorrow. Went look at unit in basement (it is frozen so it has to defrost so he can come back tomorrow and try to figure out what is wrong). Maybe it isn't the loops, maybe I have a "lemon" unit. Oh well, should know more today.
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Lunker
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Just great. Seems like you cannot have aeration and pond loops, causes stratifcation. And we found out today that our loops have floated to the top and are stuck to the ice! I do not want to compromise giving up our windmill aeration. I have started another post under Aeration. Saga continues....
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Can you move your aeration to a shallow area? If you bottom water temperature is 35 degrees, your aerator is moving too much "warm" water from the bottom to the surface.
I don't think the aeration is really the problem. If your pond loops floated to the surface then there is air in the system. Since your geo compressor is "locked" and there is air in the system I am hoping you don't have to pay for the repairs!
Systems in our area are designed to function efficiently with a 32F degree loop temperature. Our Geo contractor says he has two units that are looped in sandy soil and these will get in to the mid to high 20F degree range and still continue to produce heat.
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Dwight, I'm learning more and more.... First, I stand corrected, I have 1800' of pipe in my pond loops. I did go back to your picture post and i notice yours is in a slinky formation, mine is coiled. For one thing, coiled is Ok in the South, slinky/matt in the North, yours looks to be in the slinky formation. Aeration, from most reading I'm doing is bad for geo...are you running an aerator in your pond? Still working thru my geo problems with the installers...
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Moderated by Bill Cody, Bruce Condello, catmandoo, Chris Steelman, Dave Davidson1, esshup, ewest, FireIsHot, Omaha, Sunil, teehjaeh57
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Algae
by Boondoggle - 06/14/24 10:07 PM
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