Pond Boss Forums POND CONSTRUCTION Soil questions Organic soils in the bottom

I am brand new here and I also am in the process of building a 9-10 acre pond for myself. My question is do I need to to remove any, all, or some of the organic material from the bottom of the pond? I know that it will be necessary where we build the dam and the borrow areas. Thanks for your inputs and I look forward to quizzing you guys as this project progresses.

Howdy and a belated welcome to the forum, JTH (we musta missed the fact that your "Pimp My Barge" post was your first).

Organic material that does not need excavated to build the pond can be left in place for the most part. Much of it will be beneficial in one way or another.

-trees, stumps,and logs will provide structure/cover for fish.
-grass and soft, low forbs will provide a ready substrate for macrophytes (tiny living things fish eat) to grow and live on.
-Ground cover will help prevent erosion within the basin as the pond fills and keep the water in the new pond somewhat clearer at first.

Some possible disadvantages might be:
-green trees and stumps less than a few months dead when the pond fills may leach tannin into the water in objectionable amounts - this is most worrisome with some species of oak.
-some kinds of plants might snag lures badly - briars, perhaps?

I suggest you take a look at the structure thread in the archives which may give you ideas about how trees, etc. can be useful.

JTH

Agree with Theo, Except for the dam and work area, you can leave the other area alone.

Thanks guys, this makes me fell better because it would mean moving roughly 20,000 yards of organic soil. I will be moving some of it for contouring of the edges and for manipulating the shape and depth of the bottom. I plan on having underwater ridges, flats, and ditches and if I use this soil would it make it more suceptible/beneficial to unwanted/wanted vegetation? I know that minimum water depth should be three feet to discourage vegetation but what about the kind(s) of grasses that will support freshwater shrimp? Is water depth an issue for this type of scenario? I hope to have some photos this week to post and I would appreciate any and all input.

Thanks,
JTH

JTH
Freshwater shrimp I know nothing about. You will have no problem with getting aquatic vegetation. A little sun a little water and something is going to grow.

You have done some homework to know about structure below the water.

OTTO

Fine leafed submerged vegetation provides the best habitat for freshwater shrimp. Articicial structure is little benefit as far as habitat for frewhwater shrinp. They do not do well in abundant growths of filamentous algae (FA).

OTTO - I think you and I have the same affliction. I started in the heavy equipment business 12+ years ago as a supplement to my regular job and through the years I've built a few ponds and saw that most of my customers were not concerned much about where a fish would live and why. I grew up fishing farm ponds and oxbow lakes on the Pascagoula River and always dreamed about having my own pond. Fast forward to today and we are working on our third piece of property(1 & 2 didn't have enough pond room) and I think I have found the perfect place that will fit into our budget. The pondsite will roughly be 9-10 acres according to topo maps. We have most of the clearing done with the exception of some trees in the main drain. I'm undecided about how many should be left standing. What is better for fish natural or man-made structure? We hope to shoot waterline all the way around this week if the weather holds up and then the decisions start getting harder. I have some friends locally that have built their ponds with great bass fishing in mind and both have committed to come out and tell me what they've done and more importantly what they wish they would've done or not done. Sorry about the rambling but dang if it ain't exciting right now. Many questions soon to come.

Thanks, JTH

JTH
Affliction is a good word.
!0 acres is a big pond, might as well call this a LAKE.
Man made structure is great but always second best to what mother nature can do.
When you shoot waterline get a can of spray paint and mark where the water will be on the trees you are going to leave. That will really help you as you make your plans. Planing is always the key.

What part of Mississippi are you in,, My son is in school in Meridian, and Like all good parents some time is spent there. If you are close I will come and look, maybe even run the equipment.

Have some fun.

OTTO

OTTO,

Paint on the trees sounds like a great idea. We are about 110 miles south of Meridian or maybe a better reference is 35 miles west of Mobile,AL. I would be extremely interested if you could combine a visit to your son with a visit to my site. I have looked at your website numerous times and I will give you a call to check your schedule with you. Hopefully we can link up.

Thanks, JTH

JTH,
Don't know the types of soils you're dealing with but I've noticed that the red clay where left exposed in the shallows in my pond doesn't grow plants well. Some topsoil placed there would have helped alot.

Ric,

I have the same feeling about it but was unsure of how much is too much. What I have is a drain that leads to a small creek and this drain has lots of sediment(organics) in the bottom covering the clay. I know that with the type of clay that lies beneath that growing anything would probably be an act of futility. Leaving most of the topsoil in the bottom helps out with the overall cost of this project and with my goals. What's strange is had I relied solely on the soils survey for our county(provided to me by our NRCS office) I would have questioned the underlying soils on this site for a pond. If we had not dug test holes to actually see what was underneath the 1' plus layer of topsoil we might have missed out on what appears to be a great site. I talked with the local water well guy that put down a well on one of the neighbors property a couple of months ago and he said he went through a layer of topsoil and then through a 65' wall of heavy clay. This guy is a third generation well driller from this same community and was surprised by this. This was a lesson for me to not solely depend on someone else's observations made many years ago. There is nothing like seeing it for yourself or hearing it from someone who really knows.

JTH

I thought about water depth WRT plants growing when I built my pond but not about other requirements. Bob's post here http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=128115#Post128115
Made me think though about sunlight exposure, soil texture, available nutrients etc.

Only a couple thoughts from my experience...

Leaving all the black topsoil in the pond bottom does two things...add nutrients (maybe good where you are) and wastes a really valuable resource.

We removed most of the black soil from our second pond area and used it on several areas where erosion had taken much of the place to clay. After that, I realized just how much we'd have gotten from the first pond. Maybe 60% was removed anyway, just in the course of building, but I REALLY wish I could have used the other.

I've got quite a pile as a dam for the "crawdad" hole, down east, but it's nearly a quarter mile from where I need it...2 ton dump trailer and the tractor gets it for me, but it would have been much handier to have stockpiled some closer to the house.

Just some thoughts....doesn't take much time (translated = $$$) to move quite a bit while the dozer's on site.

JTH

The next visit to MS will include a trip to your place, do not know when that will be yet.

In this area topsoil is so valuable we seldom leave much of it in a pond. The cost will decide what we do with it. Just putting it in a pile outside the water is better than covering it with water.

Otto

Matt,

The topsoil that is in the bottom of the site is evidently nutrient rich because it is growing grass like crazy in the open areas. I pulled up on site the other day and five deer ran off. They had been feeding on the grass. I will utilize a lot of it on the property and around the pond but it will also be used for underwater sculpting. I know that liming is crucial and I will be doing it but does anyone have any experience with the lime byproduct from a cement plant? I have access to a lot of this stuff and I was wondering if anybody has tried it. Someone I know used it on his pasture and he claims that it works great. Once he had lightly disked it for drying purposes he loaded it straight into a large tow behind spreader and said it worked fine. I plan on having analysis done on the soil and the lime byproduct.

Otto,

We look forward to seeing you. Work on the place has stopped for the time being because of 8+ inches of rain within the last week. A few days of sunshine should take care of it.

JTH

JTH,
Just to be clear. I wish I had left or added topsoil where I wanted plants to grow. My pond has been loosing 24" each summer & the red clay exposed is an eye sore. It would have been nice if I hadn't removed that topsoil. It's too steep to get soil to stick now.
Also, realize a foot of topsoil can hide a potential leak.