Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations Identify the fish.....may have a problem

So I went to the back side of the pond again to get sample fish with the cast net and this is what I came up with.

It appears I have several strains of bream in there.
I think some of the coppernose bream spawned with Red Ear bream.

I also caught a couple of the bass I put in last month. They were extremely fat. Like bulging.

They looked a lot bigger than when I put them in there.

But this is what I snared out of the pond today.
I'm pretty sure one of these is a warmouth and I have no idea where these came from.

I don't see a warmouth?

And here we have the infamous green sunfish, which I didnt even know I had. The one in the middle is not a green sunfish.

These two fine specimens are females that were full of eggs.
Note how fat.

They were removed and war has been declared.



No sense in letting a good crisis go to waste I always say.
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

Meet my cat Salem, who just happens to be rather fond of green sunfish.

Free cat food baby.


Now that I know how to identify these bat turds, a lot of them are going to be taken out. I'm hoping the LMB and HSB will put a very large dent in them too.

the one with the orange eyes?

And here are some others. I didn't get any of the larger fish today because I didnt hit them with the cast net where I feed.

I went further to the back of the pond in places where I don't throw feed. But still, they appear to be growing nicely.

The two on the top of the pic seem to be coppernose......I do not know.

The larger one at the bottom of the photo doesn't seem to have the lateral lines so I'm not sure the strain.

Looks like a small red ear to the left, dont know.

This one?



That might be an immature redear sunfish, maybe female, or possibly some sort of hybrid.

http://gallery.nanfa.org/v/members/Uland...unfish.jpg.html



See this link for pictures of Warmouth.
http://gallery.nanfa.org/v/members/Nate+...epomis/gulosus/

Jason, the two with the heavy GSF characteristics may be hybrids. They look a little too tall in their form and have pretty distinctive vertical bars to be pure GSF. Shorty can tell you for sure. He knows what he is talking about. I'm still just learning. I sometimes get confused when I catch a hybrid and think it is a GSF because of the markings. But when I catch a true pure GSF, there is no mistaking it. The hybrids very often have the green bars on the face, the pinkish orangish translucent margin on the ear tab, the white tips on the lower fins and belly. All the things to make one think GSF, yet their mouth is not quite large enough opening and the lips are stouter more like a BG. The GSF mouth almost looks like a LMB to me.

You may or may not want to get rid of the hybrids. I personally like them. I stocked my main pond with pure BG, but about five in a hundred were actually hybrids. So my supplier had a few hybrids mixed in. I'm guessing on that number by my catch rate of hybrids, but I may be estimating way too high because the hybrids seem to be what bites a hook most aggressive. So I may not have as many as I think, them being just easier to catch. I've moved most of the hybrids caught out of my main pond to my old pond which also has GSF. That is when I ran into the problem of differentiating between hybrids and pure GSF. I think I've finally got a handle on it after destroying a few of the hybrids moved from my main pond.

The hybrids are fast growing and easy to catch. I like them, but you do what you want with them. You, like me, might have a few from your initial stocking from your supplier.

Edit: a GSF mouth when closed will have the rear of the mouth go back all the way to the fishes eye. The mouth open will look HUGE. A pure GSF will have about the same size mouth as a LMB the same length. The hybrids mouth will be big, but not that big.

The one on the lower left looks like a RES.

Here is a link with a good picture of a GSF.
GSF

Click on the picture for a better look and there is also a second picture. Notice the mouth. The corner of the closed mouth extends all the way back to the front of the fishes eye. In your larger size fish the two that look like GSF characteristics do not have that mouth. The mouth is smaller. That and the fact the fish looks taller in relation to its length compared to a GSF makes me think the two larger fish are hybrids.

Now the pictures of the small fish (2-3" long) from a previous post, those look more like pure GSF. So you may have contamination from some pure GSF at some point and that is their reproduction. That might or might not become a problem, depending on how strong the establishment of your other fish are. If they have a good running start ahead of the GSF, it might not be much of an issue. If there is tons of GSF fry that eat all the other fish recruitment fry or eggs, it can be a real problem, so I'm told. Esshup has a story of a clients pond over run by GSF that did not allow other fish recruitment.

Dave Davidson actually likes to have some GSF in his southern pond. So not everyone thinks they are such a bad deal. Just almost everyone.

I see no warmouths in the photos. Just BG, GSF and RES. The posted GSF appear to be pure GSF to me, not hybrids.

First picture:

Going clockwise from the top (the 5 largest fish)

Female BG or CNBG
Red eyed fish, could be a hybrid between RES and BG or an immature RES.
Fish below that, same thing.
7:00 fish, female BG or CNBG
11:00 fish Male CNBG (see the lighter coloring at the top of his head behind the eyes?)

Next picture, right to left, or left to right. GSF, BG, GSF

Last picture. All BG/CNBG except for the lower left fish, which is a RES.

A mix of sunfish (lepomis) with mostly BG/CNBG , RES and GSF genes.

ewest, since you are down south and are familiar with CNBG, what is the smallest size that CNBG and Northern BG are distinguishable from each other? What, if anything, is different other than the light band on the top of head?

See this from the archives (Bill Cody & ewest). The last link is on CNBG vs BG with pics. Very hard to tell difference sometimes on small fish < 2 in.

13. From this thread:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=279613#Post279613

THE CUTTING EDGE – SCIENCE REVIEW
By Eric West

Coppernose Bluegill vs. Regular Bluegill – which one for you?

A question we often get on the Pond Boss Forum is should I stock Regular Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus macrochirus or Coppernose Bluegill Lepomis macrochirus mystacalis also previously classified and referred to as Lepomis m. purpurescens . To answer that question we should look at the traits of both and use the one that will work best for the particular goals for the water in question. As we all know traits come from genetics. So what is the difference in the genetics of Coppernose vs. Regular Bluegill? Well it started a long time ago and it took a long time to get there. Here is the basic story. Millions of years ago peninsular Florida was, like it is today, connected to the mainland. Bluegill were present all over the eastern US. Sea level rose and peninsular Florida was cut off by the sea from the mainland creating two separate populations. Bluegill on both the mainland and on the peninsula continued to evolve separately each influenced by local conditions with a divergence time of roughly 2.3 million years. After a few million years of this separate path sea level fell and the two land masses were connected again. However the two bluegill sub-species were now a little different genetically. The rivers were connected and the two subspecies migrated and integrated in a zone along the deep southeast where the two sub-species mixed. If this sounds familiar it should – it’s the same story as the Florida Largemouth Bass and the Northern Largemouth Bass where the divergence time between Northern (M. salmoides) and Florida (M. floridanus) bass is approximately 2.8 million years. If you know one story you should have a fairly good idea of outcome of the other. Surely as a pond owner you have heard the bass story. Florida Bass get bigger under the proper circumstance and do not due well in cold climates. Yes Bluegill have a similar story.

Coppernose Bluegill get bigger under the right circumstance but do not flourish in colder climates. In fact Coppernose are susceptible to poor results and substantial winter kill in northern US regions as are Florida Largemouth Bass. So how do you tell Coppernose and Regular Bluegill apart. Take a look at the pictures included. The Coppernose has a copper band across its head/nose in adult males, has fewer and wider vertical bars, has orangish/red fin margins and tail coloration , 12 anal fin rays and often light/white fin edges most visible when young. The Regular Bluegill has 11 anal fin rays and none of the other traits mentioned.

So how do they compare? Here are some points from a study on the subject titled Performance Comparison between Coppernose and Native Texas Bluegill Populations by John A. Prentice and J. Warren Schlechte in the 2000 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 54 at pgs 196-206 looking at growth (size at age) , survival and catchability.

Coppernose Bluegill were significantly larger than Native Bluegill in all scenarios tested with the largest observed difference being 19.2 mm total length (.756 inch) and 33.5 grams ( 1.18 ounces) over 2 years. At 3 years there was a 16 mm (.63 inch) difference on average and at 4 years 24 mm (.945 inch). With other fish species present there was no difference in angling vulnerability between the types. Spawning activity of the brooders began at the same time (last week of Feb in 1995 and first week of March in 1997) and produced the same size offspring for tagging at the same time each year ( mid-April) in what appeared to be similar numbers. Survival of young of the year Coppernose was substantially greater than for Native Bluegill.

Before you draw to many conclusions note this was in Texas where the weather is close to that of the Coppernose’s native range. That is a critical key to success with Coppernose. While there is an often cited study titled Cold Tolerance in Two Subspecies of Bluegill by , A. J. Sonski , K. E. Kulzer , and J. A. Prentice, in the 1988 Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeastern Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies , Vol. 42 at pgs 120-127 , that states Coppernose and Native Bluegill have similar cold tolerances the key is the test was done on bluegill all from the same area (Texas). Its purpose was to determine if Coppernose could survive the Texas climate. There is substantial observed and anecdotal evidence that Coppernose do not do well in cold climates (roughly north of the north line of Arkansas/Tennessee extended) . In the far northern US Coppernose become subject to high winterkill rates. This would be consistent with their similar relationship to Florida Largemouth Bass which have repeatedly been tested to do poorly and die in cold climates. The study first cited above was also in ponds with no supplemental feeding. Reported scientific evidence is substantial that in ponds the most common cause of reduced growth is a shortage of food. It is not known how much, if any, of the early growth difference between the two sub-species was due to limited forage. The two sub species will integrate (inter-breed) with the offspring exhibiting mixed traits and no apparent negatives but there is very little published data on them.

So the answer to the question should I stock Coppernose Bluegill or Regular (native) Bluegill or both is – it depends. Your location (climate) and your goals are key factors. If you are in the Deep South or the Southwest (including Southern California) and not at high elevation (Appalachian, Rocky or Sierra Mountains) Coppernose should be considered. In short is your temperature profile similar to those areas? To some extent management practices and the existing bluegill population, if any, are also possible factors. Whichever type you choose keep in mind that the most important factor to growing nice bluegill is to be sure they have enough food to eat and not to much competition.

See this link from the archives done by Bruce and the other mods.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92482#Post92482

14. Some more reading about CNBG:
http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=78560&page=1

Thanks. The biggest difference that should be discernable in all fish, irregardless of size is the anal fin ray count. 12 in CNBG and 11 in BG.

So, I'm just guessing here but if the fish is a hybrid, that anal ray fin count would still apply.

Hmmmmmmmmmm................. That might mean counting and splitting any "CNBG" into two groups to test their cold water survivability depending on the anal fin ray count.

I would need a magnifying glass and tweezers to count fin rays on a 1" BG.

The biggest difference I can see is without taking them out of the water. Northern BG have no white or pink edging to their fins, while CNBG have this edging, especially on their tail fins. The edging shows up at a pretty small size...

The edging shows up at a pretty small size...

Yes but all of the CNBG don't always exhibit that while some are very pronounced. I have never understood why that occurs.

I by no means am a CNBG expert, but have spent some time in FL where CNBG are native and southern NC where they are also native and I don't recall ever seeing a BG that didn't have the edging. Then again I wasn't paying that close attention to it.

CNBG also seem to have fewer lateral bands that are more pronounced along with a very different coloration.

It would certainly be interesting to study known pure CNBG populations and known northern BG populations and then study known crosses and back crosses.

That's what I've heard happens when you get old!

Don't forget some clove oil or Tranquil to keep them from flipping and flopping!!

Typical immature male CNBG:
White/pearl fin tiping
Few, broad vertical stripes
Hint of copper on nose on immature males

Yeah, and as I'm beginning to discover that's probably just the tip of the iceberg!

I have seen blueish white edge fin tinting on northern BG at my dad's old pond. Some of the small 2" BG had very light sky blue tinted fins that got lighter at the edges, others appeared to have very transparent fins. With extremely clear water and a dark bottom it was very noticeable watching them side by side.

A lot of mine look exactly like this.
This photo looks like mine pictured on picture number 3. Albeit it not as large.
I have a lot like this. Just can't catch them but every now and then with the cast net. And I dont harass them daily with the net. I also don't use the net where I call them into feeding. That's where the bigger ones show up, some of them seem to look identical to the one in this photo. Others look a lot like it but are even more colorful.

The vast majority seem to be a coppernose strain. I haven't caught any green sunfish with any size to them whatsoever.

Salem loves them. I'm sure bass and striped bass will love them too.