Pond Boss Forums INTRO Questions & Observations OMG! To much fertilizer: incredibly green!

First, I apologize for both probably not posting this in the proper spot and for any improprieties I am about to blunder with during this post, such as I have made it as long as a paperback.... It is my first post to the forum, despite being a long time subscriber to Pond Boss, a publication so good that it is the main reason I have not had to ask for help to date, I can usually find the answers within my issues!

However, I have a problem that I remain confused on even after reading all I can on the subject and what research I have been able to do on the PB forums. Admittedly, I have not done all the work I should have done before posting this request for help ( apology number 1 ) and all I can offer for that mistake is part of the reason I am in this mess in the first place. I will explain.

I broke my back 11 years ago at the age of 49 while discovering that I could NOT actually drive to work in my sleep as I had told so many of my friends for so many years Long story shortened up, after a 13 hour surgery, 2 massive full length rods and 13 screws, I have been left with a life of intense 24/7 pain BUT I am alive and can walk under my own head of steam, albeit not much like a proud General, still, I am just fine with everything and glad to wake up everyday!

However, therein lies the bulk of my problem. Due to the fact that I am in pretty rough shape, and live with just my wife on our 43 acre farm in Missouri, I have a very difficult time trying to properly manager our pond.

It would require a far to lengthy post to describe all the issues and I fear I have already gone into to much detail not directly about the problem, but because of my remote location, lack of any neighbors ( hard to even find people to fish the pond ) and very difficult time trying to find any help with physical tasks associated with maintaining the pond, I have made mistakes over the years.

Although ( with the very noticeable exception of the LMB ) the fish in the pond still, after 7 years, appear to remain very healthy, and very large, to me it is wishful thinking to think things will remain that way forever. I have already done to much of that....Some facts:

There was a small pond ( maybe 1/4 acre, on site for 30+ years ) on the property when we bought the place 7 years ago. I immediately had another pond dug adjacent to it, larger and deeper ( maybe 3/4 acre, 10-12' deep ) and that pond was stocked with the same fish that were in the smaller pond, CC, BG, HBG, RES, GC, LMB and FHM. In the seven years that we have had guests and friends ( and myself when I have felt well enough ) there has never been any species caught other than what we have put in, so I am fairly confident that the smaller pond did indeed have in it what what claimed.

Realizing that in this part of MO especially the summers ( and geeze was I ever right about this one! ) are vicious and dry many ponds up to the point there is a massive fish kill, at the same time we paid a fortune to have a 525' well dug right next to the ponds for the sole purpose of filling them whenever the occasion should call for it. This is, I think, the single reason that I have escaped a SINGLE fish kill that we have ever been able to spot, although I realize of course some have croaked, but clearly we have still yet to suffer any major difficulty. More on this in a minute.

When I had the second pond dug, I had it designed so that it joined up with the old pond in two locations, effectively creating one pond, with an island in-between them. The fish seem to enjoy going from the new pond, to the old pond at the two choke points ( about 10' wide, 6' deep ), and I suspect much of the spawning takes place in the old pond with some cover and not as deep. All the fish except the GC are producing faster than we can pull them out, a whole other post. The old pond is not as deep, has some logs, etc for cover, the new pond has nothing. However, it is important to note ( I guess? ) that the ponds do not have ANY vegetation in them of any kind at all. When the water from the deep well is put into one pond, it fills both of them, slowly. They do not have aeration, a project for the future, unfortunately, disability checks make for lousy pond equipping....

Now to what I should have listed much sooner I am afraid, the actual issue! After filling the pond with well water ( and of course, a lot of water from the old pond, so there was maybe a 50/50 mix ) the pond looked absoultly stunning for the first year....and then I took care of that! The water was to clear, at least in my uneducated mind it was, and after reading as much as I could in PB, decided that I needed to fertilize.

If ONLY I had read the label on the bag as well as I do the issue each time. I can only offer up that I have to take 11 pills 4X daily and they make my already less than stellar mind uhh..well, lets go with even "slower". So where it said "ounces" I actually thought it said "pounds" and threw in the salt looking stuff like it was confetti at a new years party..

Within days the once pretty pond took on a green color that I have only seen once before....when I watched the movie the "exorcist". Like the knucklehead I am, I sat in disbelief and denial, and along with that, secretly hoping that my mistake would magically somehow just fix itself. Yea, I know, I am 60 years old, what was I thinking?

Of course, it did not get better, and as the years went by I promised that I would do something to at least try to reverse my error if even possible, the poor bass are starving, I doubt they can see more than a few inches, I can only see white for maybe 8" myself. However, the rest of the fish seem to thrive in this nasty looking ( but no smell, never any floating algae ) stuff so I have paused when I should have taken action.

The last few years we began using two feeders ( I assumed that with that poor of visibility even the rest of the fish will have a tough time sooner or later ) and we feed Purina 500 and 600, which is gobbled up so fast ( even the GC get in on this, which grow amazingly fast and large on that Purina, as do the others ) it almost would give one pause to think twice about swimming in that pond, the fish are so large ( even the BG ) and aggressive it kinda gives our friends the creeps when offered the chance to swim. In fact, to date, no takers! Well, the eight or so snappers that also love to get in on the chow wagon action might have something to do with that....

So, there you have it. I have taken large glass jugs and filled them with the water, it is almost difficult to see through them there is so much green suspended algae in them. After nearly a week, they finally clear up considerably, and on the bottom is a fine layer of green sediment. The pond has been this way for 6 years and the fish, with the exception of the LMB, continue to show no signs of any stress, which is utterly astounding to me. The minnows I can understand, but not so many other species and so large, they have to be at least having a difficult time getting enough oxygen across their gills without clogging up their pipes.

I need to be corrected if I am on the wrong track here but I THINK the reason I have been getting by ( living on borrowed time, impending doom is ahead I believe ) for so long is that the new pond leaks. I know that sounds odd. Leak is not to bad, but with the evaporation and the leak, I am forced to add ( in the warm months ) 300,00-400,000 thousand gallons a couple of times a month. It is this reason, I believe, that the water quality keeps from getting worse, gobs of floating algae, etc and the growing fish population ( and size of the fish ) has not managed to pee themselves into unlivable conditions. I just can't come up with any other explanation, on paper, this pond should have, from everything I have read, had a large fish kill by now ( I suspect it is also overcrowded with large CC, but I am not really sure, but I am sure they continue to spawn and produce more ) or at a minimum show some signs of stress rather than the apparent flourishing they seem to enjoy now.

So, finally, way to late, I turn to my fellow PB members for help. I simply cannot decipher properly all the material written about this subject, partly due to the meds that cause a terrible lack of focus ( well, that is pretty evident ) and also because the constant pain keeps me from even being able to sit in this chair long enough to get much done. It took me 2 days to complete this post, type a little, back to the recliner, so on and so forth. I hate making excuses like this, just hate it, I just want the good folks out there that might be willing to give this dunderhead the help I need some explanation why and how this got away from me.

I see many ads in PB about products for clearing up ponds with what APPEARS to be problems like I have, but I am not sure, and I have already goofed up adding something into the pond, I really need guidance with this. I am still searching for a water testing company close to my location but without luck so far, and that will tell me a lot of very important information I will still need, but it is pretty clear what the basic problem is and even how it happened. This pond is greener than envy, and I made it that way almost overnight, years ago. I have FHM, what appears to be hordes of them in fact, swimming around in a pond without any natural cover without fear of predators, despite large numbers of very large BG, CC, etc, the water is so green I don't think anything can see them well enough to eat them. I have not put a FHM in the pond for 4 years, thought they might be gone in a few week or a month, did not expect to have a breeding pond for them!

I am so sorry for the way to lengthy post, and I am pretty sure I have not put this in the proper place, I will get better at this, I promise. I also know a lot of posts have been written on this subject, I just seem to be unable to sort it all out, and most of those ponds do not have such a strong, healthy ( well, except for the poor starving LMB, who, of course, are not chowing down on the Purina like all the others ) fish base. I have read the forums for years, I know the members to be so respectful and helpful, and I am really counting on that help now. Can someone please tell me, in a fashion that my "stuck in low gear" mind can fathom, what, if anything, I can do, add to, take out of, etc ( keeping in mind that an income based on disability checks will prevent anything to expensive ) to try and reverse this mess I have created?

Thank all of you for your patience with me and your advice, I clearly need someone else to drive! Geeze, I can't believe I said that! If I had another driver, my back would be great! Ha!

I just noticed that have posted twice before this. I did not even know that. I have the memory span of the Tri horned , striped garden snail...

Wow now that's a post.. Put up some pics of the pond..

Catbird, thanks for sharing, and I'm sure someone will chime in soon with a possible solution for you. As far as getting the water tested, it's not very expensive and will need to be done. I think you can send it to Texas A&M or Auburn - just google "water testing" and you'll find something. Sorry about the accident, and all the pills that you have to take, but you seem to be handling it very well. Just hang in there and this problem will be solved by one of our many experts.
Best wishes, Randy

PS - like BGK said, pictures would be very helpful...

Catbird -- first a big welcome to the Pond Boss forum.

And, the heck with long posts. I ready every word of yours, and enjoyed it.

As you may know, we are having our Pond Boss conference again this year in Missouri -- at Big Cedar Lodge outside of Branson, MO. How far away are you? I can't promise anything, but if you aren't too far away, maybe we could make your pond a "field trip." Alternatively, if you are near a main highway that many of us will travel, possibly we could have a "stop by" as we travel, and provide some advice.

(Don't post your exact location, phone number, etc., -- we can get that through private messages if this could possibly work. We just need a general area to know if something like this might be possible.)

As for fertilizer -- as usual, I'm going to go off track (I'll turn 65 at the conference, and I too am on disability. Besides being just plain crazy, and the 14 pills I take a day, I find it normal to easily get distracted!) Now back to the fertilizer.

About 25 years ago, some very good friends were going through a relatively bad time due to the wife/mother having cancer. The family was seriously stressed. The son, then about 13 or 14, was really angry at his dad after a spat in mid-June. So, as a father's day present, the son took the fertilizer drop-spreader to their rather large front yard (we lived in a rural area where the lawn mowers were generally brushhogs). In very big block letters, the son used the drop spreader to spell out "F*** You Dad" in the center of the so-called lawn, in front of a big deck, and overlooked by the 2nd floor balcony. He put down way way too much fertilizer. It completely killed all grass, and any hope of life in that part of the yard for several years.

So, your problem with fertilizer may not be as severe as his. I'm surprised it hasn't flushed out.

Does any water flow out of your pond, or does it just percolate and evaporate?

There are plants that can take up significant chemicals. Possibly that could be an answer.

It is hard to say what you might actually have for fish. If the original pond had hybrid bluegill, my guess is that they are long gone. Some of the catfish should be huge. You may need to think about a restocking plan.

Don't worry about the length of your posts. The more info we have, the easier it will be to come up with a solution.

Regards,
Ken

Tell us all you can.

Several thoughts to start this process. Welcome to PB and don't get discouraged. Cat has some good thoughts.

How much fertilizer did you put in? I doubt that is the problem as it only lasts about a year max. A pond always reflects the dirt it sits on as to productivity. Does the water clear in winter ? I have never heard of a plankton bloom that does not decrease in cold weather.

First suggestion - call Shawn Banks in your general area and talk to him. Tell him you come via Pond Boss. web page http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showprofile&User=758 phone -
816-804-5604


Second post pics of the water.

Get the dirt and water tested - see this link http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=92617#Post92617 it note MO , Ark and others.

Didn't get let down, thanks folks! I will try and answer the questions as best I can, given the firing on fewer than 8 cylinders situation.

Sorry to hear of your status catmandoo, it sounds very much like my own. I was in a better place with regards to the pain four years ago, I have an internal pain pump and had Prialt pumping into my spinal cord, I am nearly impervious to Fentanyl, Dilaudid, all the opiates, and Prialt is the venom of the Australian Cone Snail. But for Christmas of 08, the pump suddenly went supernova one day, putting me in a coma in less than a minute. On the plus side, that was the best sleep I have had before or since the accident! Pump is still in there, just sitting idle, not unlike its owner

We are located about 2 hours from Branson, in the south central part of the state, close to Rolla, Houston. Something like you suggested, while I understand is a long shot and I completely understand given the nature of your schedule and workload, would still be absoultly amazing if it were to come to fruition. Everyone out here own a pond of some type. Well, that one was kinda a given based on the part of the country we live in I guess. We do have a fish hatchery 28 miles to the North that delivers fish either to the pond directly, or most commonly, "fish day" at our local MFA'S, and the local farmers line up with their tubs and buckets of all sizes and shapes to attempt to get the fish back to the pond in time; always a "cannonball run" type of thing to see if we can get them to our remote locations in time to get the fish in the ponds without suffering any loss. Twenty minute drive is about the limit when buying them 100 at a time ( 3-6" ) in 20 gallon containers without any aeration.

The only water that leaves my pond other than the leak, which is really just heavy seepage, is the evaporation. I have read about some plants that might be able to help, a couple of hurdles to overcome with that are getting out the GC ( spookier than many whitetail bucks ) and finding the correct plants; it is very difficult to find anything close to us, we just are not located in an ideal spot for shopping. Basically, we are half way between St Louis and Springfield, it is a 2 hour drive in either direction. I do not know if such items could be purchased through the internet, but considering that I seem to have a destructive batch of fish, lots of pretty big turtles ( which we very much like ) and maybe 8 GC, I would think that any vegetation would quickly be attacked with zest. But I may be way off on that, we already see what happens when I think for myself

This pond just does not fit all the molds. Most of the fish seem to thrive in what appears to be very poor conditions/ they continue to reproduce at a rapid rate, all with little attention over years from us other than feeding. I finally put in some HBG this spring, small fish, since I know nothing is gonna be able to find them and eat em! Prior to that, I had not planted any of them in 5 years. Yet any bait, or especially any lures within reason ( they even hit very large bass lures ) will usually produce a very nice BG on every attempt, and strangely, perhaps 30% or more will still be HYB. In fact, before we put in the small ones this spring, I noticed that when we had some company that we coaxed into fishing, they caught and released maybe 6 SMALL, clearly spawns, something that I know should occur rarely.

Again, the pond does not seem to fit what the text would indicate. The bass are indeed slender, but still reproducing like crazy, baby bass everywhere every year. The fathead minnows put in many years ago that I assumed would be gobbled up quickly with any survivors croaking soon after, have apparently thrived so well they have established a very large and healthy breeding population, at least it would appear so, as there are ALWAYS an abundance of them, regardless of the time of the year.

We used to have normal catfish food in one feeder on the bridge that separates the ponds pointing into the deep end of the new, larger, deeper pond, and another pointing the other direction, the smaller pond seemed to hold a few more of the BG, so that feeder was filled with Purina 500. Then we went to a mix of 600 and normal catfish food for the big pond feeder, and after we noticed a large number of BG big enough to eat those pellets also ( new goal for last year or so is for big BG ) we went to a mix of 500/600/normal chow. Finally, we have just settled on 600 into the larger pond, 500 into the smaller one.

Because our pond is located just 80 yards out our back door, I actually watch them feed every single evening, usually from the house with a 45X spotting scope, and often we will go right to the bridge and watch the action up close. We always take any visitors out there for feeding time, the feeders go off same time every night ( so great to watch the abrupt waves start forming in the normally very still waters about 30 seconds before the feeder go off as the jockeying for position begins ) and it is a sight indeed, something that people not used to seeing large fish very close slapping the surface in a feeding frenzy do not soon forget. I guess everyone that has CC and GP, lots of large BG, etc has the same thing, but there is no "gentle" surface feeding from these catfish ( some are large albino ); everything is what appears to be race to the finish.

I have always struggled with the question of overfeeding. I know there is no hard answer here, the "fifteen minute" rule is about all I really know of, but again I am a little confused here. I can set the feeder to deliver the max 20 second load, and they will wipe it out within 3 minutes. I program in a second load of 10 to 15 seconds right behind that one....all gone within just a few minutes. Everyone is in on the nightly feast, even the turtles ( we have one turtle that I have been unable to identify, very large, clearly NOT a snapper, and VERY spooky, can't get within 50 yards of the pond, usually only seen through the spotting scope ), the raccoon are in the dugouts on standby by for anything feeding to close to shore. the kingfishers are watching from above for the occasional morsel, it is really a show each evening. Combined with the deer and turkey that are also within 150 yards of the house feeding off another feeder, it is better than anything I can find on TV....and I watch a LOT of TV since I was put down

You mentioned fish numbers and types. I am still petty confident ( well, you know how that goes.....) about the types, nothing has ever been pulled out of the pond other than what was put into them. Could be something out there not landed yet. As to numbers, I can only attest to a few things, most are unknown to us. We are certain that everything but the GP are spawning regularly, in fact, it appears that this year, the greenest the pond has ever been, with terrible visibility, is the best year yet for spawns, but the poor bass, while also spawning right on schedule every year, look like they are starving while everything else we pull out of the pond looks like Jabba The Hut of the fish world.

Since I watch them every day, both in the morning for a short feed and the evening for the normal one, I have become so ( I have done this every day for all 7 years! ) familiar with the fish I actually know many of the larger CC by name, we gave them names some years ago. Based on what I see, and the number and ease of BG that can be caught ( and size!), I THINK that despite the fact I have only stocked a few hundred fish maybe 3 times in 7 years, considering it is so lightly fished, they are actually staying ahead of the curve. I have not taken on any real aggressive program since I realized that I would never be able to get the pain levels down to a point that would allow me to get out there with any regularity, but the amount of company we expected to show up at out door more than willing to take some of these fish off our hands never materialized. So, it is for the best if I do not get to many fish in there actually. In fact, I have no simple way of knowing what the current population is ( pond cannot be drained easily, nor would I want to occur the expense of trying to start over ) except for the GP, I know there are 8 of them, and I have a pretty good idea on the number of large CC. Not to many of them, perhaps 15 and they are not that large, last ones caught were only 12 pounds, 30" long. The 4 or 5 big guys are extremely wary, no one has ever been able to land one of them although at one time or another everyone has had their lines snapped off by something, probably one of them.

Speaking of difficulty in catching CC, I know I have read in PB and other places that pellet fed catfish are not harder to catch than those that are not. Another rule breaker for this pond I suspect,when I put in the feeders a few years ago, they became so picky that it is nearly impossible to catch any of the medium or larger fish, they simply ignore EVERYTHING offered to them, instead waiting like dogs at dinnertime for the evening meal. About the only hope I have for any guests to catch them at all is if I have advance notice of their arrival by a week or so, I will turn off the feeders ( if I leave the BG feeder on with tiny 500 they just race over the bridge and eat that like it was their last meal ) and then they have a chance, otherwise, despite the fact it is not a very big pond and does indeed have plenty of fish in it, as the poor hapless fishermen see after fishing without luck, only to see the surface boil like hot water as the feeders go off even as they pack up all their gear, having caught plenty of big BG, but few skinny bass, and almost no luck on the catfish, only to see big albino cats now feeding with gusto on the surface, a scant few feet away from them. More than a few have inquired as to the possible use of my crossbow back at the house

I think my green water is a self feeding thing. The ponds are sheltered from the wind, but do get a lot of strong sunlight, almost no wave action. I notice that all the ponds around us this time of the year sooner or latter "turn over" or whatever the proper term is for it ( my 86 year old neighbor not to far up the road has a smaller pond, never lost a fish, this summer his pond "turned over" twice, resulting in a large kill each time ) or develop a lot of algae floating on the surface during the very hot months, and yet our pond has always seemed immune to this. With nearly a million gallons of fresh water being injected into it every month, I assume that is the only logical explanation for why we are able to escape such problems.

I have some picture of the ponds, the water, etc. I have never tried to attach any pics to any posts anywhere, so that is something I will have to read tomorrow and then see if I can send so pics so everyone can get a better idea what I am talking about. In fact, as I was trying to pound this out, it was time to get up and open up the back door and watch through the 45X scope for the evening feeding, although it is close enough that is not really necessary, but does give great detail. We finally had a tiny few drops of rain yesterday, what a beautiful evening, as I watched the feeders go off a scant 9 iron from the house, a little bit farther off I watched 8 turkeys mingle with 10 deer, two of which were spotted fawns, while 2 raccoon stood guard on the bridge....just in case. I managed to snap a few pics, not that great, does not zoom out enough, but still, I got em !

I certainly appreciate so much the kindness and help that is offered to me. I know it may seem a little off to ask for help when I am not losing a single fish, and the fish I do have seem so healthy, save the poor bass, but with water this green, in addition to not looking the way at all we want, I have a sense of dread, I think I am on borrowed time, I think it is only a mater of time, and I feel the need to address this oops of mine before I make the raccoon out there very, very happy with dinner for all

Thanks again!

I forgot to add to my last post, the water does clear each winter, like clockwork, then as soon as spring rolls around, the green begins to return and gets worse as the heat and long days set in. When the pond freezes over, I can actually see the bottom in the shallow end on occasion, about 4' deep.

And how much did I put in....uhh, well, as best I can remember, which is a real reach since this occurred more than a day ago, was probably 15 POUNDS, maybe more, of concentrated granules, I cannot remember what brand/type it was...sorry.

Hope that helps. Thanks!

I have ADHD.. let me know the outcome with cliff notes..

Catbird, IMHO, the fact that the water clears every winter takes you off the hook for over fertilizing all those years ago. So don't be so hard on yourself.

Catbird, welcome to Pond Boss.

Like Ken(Catmandoo in the funny papers) says, I'll bet we can get someone out there to look it over.

The green is plankton and it has to have a source of nutrients to get started and thrive. Do you have any runoff from cattle manure or anything like that? Maybe from a neighbor? Do you have any other vegetation in the pond?

The well water, to me, is suspect #1. Think about this. During the winter when you don't pump, the pond clears. Add water and you get a massive algae bloom. Have the well water tested.

It might be that you have too many fish and, as Bill Cody says, fish swim in their own toilet. Thus, they can create their own fertilizer bloom under extreme circumstances.

Small, skinny bass and large bluegills usually says that the pond is bass heavy meaning that the small bass eat the small bluegills before they get a chance to get large enough to feed any larger bass. Thus the cycle continues and this is very common. However, I have no answer to the fathead proliferation in this case.

Disclaimer: Ken is certifiably nuts. And, at darn near 70 YOA, I am senile with ADHD and dementia. Just ask my Wife.

Yeah, and we're the moderators! Sure makes one think about "One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest."

Anyway, at about 15 lbs. of fertilizer, I don't believe that was excessive, and as EWEST said, it would be long gone by now.

I agree with Dave D., that nutrients/minerals are coming in from one of your water sources, and that your fish populations are out of balance. I'm just not sure it is all bad. It sounds like your pond is extremely productive due to the water fertility.

Can you feed too much? Yes. Are you feeding too much? Maybe. As Dave said, that may be where the fertility is coming from. It may just be way too many fish.

Aeration may help -- actually, probably would help. But, I think a serious culling and re-balancing plan would be one of the first places I'd start.

Ken

Thanks Dave for your thoughts, I will try to address them, they are good questions I should have included in my first post.

First, there is clearly no runoff of any kind that has any contains cow manure. In fact, the ponds are elevated on three side against ANY runoff. Perhaps he did not build it in an ideal fashion, but again he knew I would be filling it with well water. The one side that can receive any runoff in from my lawn, has never even had the ground worked or had any livestock on it at any point.

As a note, I also pump in the winter on occasion to break a hole in the ice if the pond stays frozen over to long, and although the leak slows way down in the winter, it never completely stops so I still add in the winter, just not as often or as much. And although the water does clear up a lot in the winter, it has never been even close to what it was before in my ignorance I threw bucket after bucket of the concentrated stuff into the pond, only to discover it should have been small CUPS, not large buckets. The incredible speed and the deep, nearly pea soup color that developed those 6 years ago has never left.

Of course even I figured out not to try that stunt again. The fishing is kinda a situation where if your are using lures, you just have to cast something very bright, shiny, etc in this pond, anything else just cannot be detected. The poor starving bass are so hungry they are often caught by those trying to catch catfish on the very bottom with large and small baits of all types.

The well water...hummm. Now that is something I never even thought of getting tested along with the pond water. I will do that. I already know it must be nearly devoid of any real oxygen content, at least from all the articles in PB, a well pushing out water from that depth should not have much, if any. Thanks for that tip, a good one, and I will pursue that. In fact, the fish hatchery that delivers fish to all the local farmers instructs us to bring containers with the water from the pond the fish are going in and to NEVER use well water as it is almost entire devoid of oxygen.

However, it is unlikely that it is the suspect. As I mentioned, I had the well dug at the same time as the new pond was constructed, so for the first year, maybe 1.5 ( remember that snail like memory both ponds ( one pond really I guess, I will try to attach some pics as soon as I read up today on how to do that, size limit, etc ) were filled and maintained by the well water, and that entire time they were so pretty they could have made a magazine cover it seems.

I still keep returning to the fact I had such beautiful, clear, water ( to clear I thought, I now know they needed just a few ounces, if anything ) and by tossing out 15 or more POUNDS rather than the required same number only in OUNCES of the highly concentrated fertilizer, I watched that poor pond turn to a color so green and full of suspended green sediment ( appears to be very small particles of algae ) so amazingly fast it appeared to begin before I could even pack things up! The very next day the pond began taking on a green tint. I only took three days to complete the task, I had effectively turned my pond into a haven for small fish, tons to eat, predators have zero chance of finding them, so for the spawns and the FHM, this was a great thing! Turtle seem to love it also.....

And, I suppose as long as I insist on throwing that expensive Purina 600 and 500 from both feeders, it is still a good thing for the rest of the fish, who I doubt even bother to hunt under the surface much, they just wait for the dinner bell, and are getting quite fat on that Aquamax, the BG are getting even bigger as we hopped, the other fish have layers of fat on them when they are cleaned that resembles a fat deer being skinned!

My concerns actually lie with what will happen to me since I have not been able to aerate ( hopefully next year ) and water so dense when I have these terrible 100+ days like we are, week after week, and then get 3 days or so in a row of clouds, am I in store for a kill, or is the water being pumped in saving me? The well water is very cool, as it should be at that depth, crystal clear, and has some find sand in it if you fill a glass with it, so clear it looks to be empty, however, closer inspection will reveal a small amount of what appears to be white sand not unlike that found on a beach. The folks that installed the pump all immediately drank a gallon of it, thirsty guys after nearly a week of hard work filled with problems ( naturally ) but watching them trying untested water like that....well, I actually made it a point to casually call them a week latter for some obscure reason, I actually inquired as to if any of them had croaked unexpectedly...it was out first sign to my wife and I that " well..we are DEFINITELY not in California anymore "

I doubt that it is the source of the ongoing problem, but I will certainly have it checked out as you suggest. I pumped in millions of gallons of the stuff that first 18 months and the ponds remained clear and beautiful, it took only a day to begin an irreversible change I did with a 50X to large dose of fertilizer.

I realize that the initial does has long since worn off so to speak, but I THINK what happens is that the first year this massive algae bloom was created, each year the conditions were ideal to simply reestablish it each spring. After I put in half a million gallons of water, it actually gets a little better for a few days, but after the flow of water stops and the water sits very still baking in the immense heat....well, I think back to when I was a kid and some of the pools of water we tried to swim in, or even if we left water in a glass jug in the sun to long, pretty much the same thing always happened.

I really think it is that simple, I had a massive, extremely thick algae bloom and based on the amount of sun the ponds receive, the lack of any wave action, the total lack of any underwater vegetation of any type, lots of factors make for the "perfect storm" to come up with a pretty green pond. I am looking at the jars I filled with the pond water a few weeks ago, I just shook them up and now they look like they did when I first drew the water, all the sediment that had finally settled after a week, settled on the bottom and is green and appears to be some form of algae. After shaking them, the jars are green again, lots and lots of floating green debris.

But I can no longer trust my judgement in most matters, which is distressing to me, that was the one thing that got me through my life so well, helped me in a fantastic career, tough choices in life, etc. But, between the pain and the meds I seem to have lost my confidence in my own judgement, and have to turn to others for help and advice, when for the vast majority of my life, I was the the one that was in the position of doing that, so it has come full circle.

I am ok with that. Pain, meds, confusion, mistakes, embarrassment, and more, the last 11 years will not improve, and I expect it to deteriorate at the same rate it has been. And yet, that is just fine!

You see, on the rare occasion ( and it is indeed rare ) that I ever find myself feeling blue over my situation and the "why me" kicks in, which, by the way, is usually only triggered by an extremely intense pain day that the daily dose of EIGHT Dilaudid [ 8mg each all taken at once each day at noon, enough to cause most folks extreme distress and a trip to the ER ] will not even touch, I have a neat little trick that not only works for me, I used to give it as advice to the many that came to me in my profession seeking some form of help with all kinds of problems. Worked very well for them, and when it was my turn to need some of the same, what better thing than to try some of your own advice, and it works just as well for me as them.

I simply turn on the news for 30 minutes. Doesn't really matter what station, just the world news. Doesn't really matter what night either. Cause in the span of that 30 minutes, I will see up to half a million people that have things SO much worse than me they would trade spots no questions asked and think they were kings of the world in my place! I only have to see the horrible misery that so many go through all over the world, including right here at home ( it might even be a report on terminal cancer patients, etc ) to realize that I can still at least walk, and although I could not walk away from that wreck and spent months in the hospital and 8 months in bed after that without getting out, that is a small price indeed for my life! I shouda croaked in that wreck, it was spectacular, and since I assumed it was all over, I enjoyed the 160' plunge off the side of the road into the canyon as long as the ride lasted, let out the rebel yell, went out in style, or so I thought. Never passed out. Even managed to land the car perfectly, albeit destroyed after that jump of 160' and over 40 feet down into a gulch.

But realizing that so many, have it so much worse, and yet they manage, and even do so with a smile on their face in many cases, is a very humbling experience for me, and immediately snaps me out of any slump I might be in, so I am just very happy to be able to see these flowers growing from the top down....not the roots up!!

Again, thanks to all, I so appreciate the kindness and patience you continue to show me, especially bothering to read and respond to the dime store novels I am writing

On another note, I have been able to get a few die hard Amish friends to fish the pond the last month, and they were able to pull out several dozen large BG each time, released many more, but those crafty catfish still prove to be very elusive and difficult to catch.

And if ever there was a group of people that know how to catch catfish, it is our Amish friends, who grew up as babies with a pole in their hands needing to catch fish so they could even get by in tough times. They have taught me a great many tricks. But the large cats frustrate them, the best they can manage is to pull out no more than 2 each trip no larger than 12 pounds. I have maybe six in the pond that have heads that look like they might have been exposed to radiation or something ( must be males ) for they appear to be a giant head a foot across with a tail behind it They have never been caught in the years we have been watching them, although I suspect they are responsible for breaking the lines that happen each time a group fish and at least one will hook up to something that will make short work of their line, but never pulled in close enough to get a look at.

I am concerned with overfeeding, and at times I have shut the feeders off or down very low. But, according to everything I am able to research on the subject, with the fish cleaning it up almost immediately, overfeeding should not be the issue. On the flip side, the more I feed them, the larger they are getting, the more waste they produce with no where for it to go and I have no aeration to disperse any of it, so it is kinda a no win proposition at this point I think.

A question. Since I have switched to all Purina high protein Aquamax 500 and 600 for the ponds, will that in fact perhaps cause an even faster growth spurt in the CC also? I realize that was the goal for trying to grow large BG, but there was little point in trying to separate food when my fish are scattered in both sides of the two bridges and the darn CC swarm to the Aquamax like flies on roadkill no matter where it is tossed by the feeders. The only way to make sure the BG were getting enough of it was to load both feeders with Purina and blast both sides with it at the same time, some of the largest RES ( I just discovered this year that they are spawning also, I put 50 redears in 5 years ago and forgot I did so, now we are catching small ones ! ) and BG are actually in the larger pond in the deep water, out where the catfish are normally waiting for the food.

Another problem that will face my kids or whoever gets this place when I check out of the game is that the catfish have decided to dig massive tunnels ( and the turtles are not helping I suspect ) all over the island that separates the two ponds and that is where they are spawning, lots of holes they are guarding. However, they have already nearly caused a cave in at the foot of the new bridge we placed there a few months ago, eventually, that island, trees and all, is slowly gonna just "go away", it gets a little smaller each year. Kinda funny actually to see them come flying out of the holes when we walk on the bridge, like dogs waiting for their treats!

At times I think maybe I have to many fish in the pond. Then at other times, I realize there are very large areas of the pond that appear to never be utilized by the fish at all, save for the occasional bass that cruises below the surface desperately grabbing any bug that hits the surface. In fact, the entire population of the ponds APPEARS to be heavily concentrated in the immediate area in front of the two feeders. Of course, they are pointed at the two best locations of each pond, but we are amazed at the lack of fish in both ponds in so much of the water. When I look at the total amount of water available to the number of fish I appear to have, I would say that I am not near an overcrowding situation, save for a LOT of very small fish, FHM, spawns of all types, etc which would and should be great bass food, but it is just to darn green and difficult to see for the bass to have much of a chance to catch but a fraction of them. When the pond was clear, I noticed that the minnows seemed frighted all the time and hid in the cover or right on the edge of the shore in very shallow water. Now they swim wherever they want, sometimes in groups of 20 or so will come up to investigate a tiny Aquamax 55 pellet I will toss in and they will come to the surface in deep water, in great bass water, and peck at it, play with it, swim around like they own the pond, completely fearless, I have NEVER seen a single one attacked by a bass or bluegill. First thoughts would be that I just done't have any bass left in the pond ( and I have NO idea how to catch bass, never did ) so after watching that I was actually convinced that the pond was without bass of any size, despite the fact it was full of 4-6" spawns.

I kicked in BMP 1. My brilliant master plan was to get my neighbors son in law, who we knew to be a borderline pro bass fisherman, to come down with is wife, also very good at this, and fish the pond for a few hours and see if there were actually any bass in the pond, since up to this point only 3 had been caught in 7 years ( admittedly no one ever fished for bass, only CC and BG ) so he agreed and fished it in May I believe, possibly April, and in the span of a couple of hours I watched them pull in 18 bass. Took em a zillion casts, but I guess that is the life if you wanna catch bass according to them, they sure did not mind at all Now in my book they were not that impressive, for our pond yes, for any other pond, no. They said the bass were healthy, but they could not explain why their mouth was much larger than their girth. The bass were all the same size, about 15" long, but skinny, not a single one had a bulge or stomach of note at all. They looked very thin to me. No parasites ( maybe the redears are doing their jobs? ) and otherwise healthy, but skinny, not like any bass I am used to seeing.

I would like to learn to catch bass, but not the poor starving fish, I want to build them up first, and I think I need to clear up the pond in order to do that so they can begin to eat the hundred of thousandths of minnows as it was intended. Are ANY of the products that I see advertised in PB that say they can eliminate suspended solids quickly an option for me or will they have no effect since the suspended particles are in fact algae? Is there a product, a bag of something, anything, that I can toss in there to try and reverse this and clear up this excessive algae bloom?

Again, thank all of you for bearing with this old, highly medicated, disillusioned soul

Catbird, concerning the bass. I think that the large head and small slim body means that the bass were once much larger and lost body weigh while, of course, the head stayed the same. You're right, first get the water cleared up, and then the bass and everything should get back in balance. There are chemicals that are used to clear ponds, but I don't know what to recommend. Someone will have an answer.

Catbird, how much AquaMax are you going thru each month? (both sizes combined) in how much water?

Large BG, smaller LMB with larger heads/mouth, all point to high predator/low forage numbers. LMB can find food just fine in water that doesn't have good visibility by using their lateral line.

I hear ya on the hard to catch CC. I have some in my pond. IF you can catch one, it's only one per fishing trip if you're lucky.

Look up a product called Phosloc and see how it works. I don't know how expensive that stuff is, but it (or something that does the same thing - Alum maybe?) might help.

The food is adding a bunch of nutrients to the water as well. I'm not saying to stop feeding, but just something to be aware of.

Have you looked at a catfish trap? That might help remove some of the CC from the pond. With the large CC in the pond, they are also eating the forage fish (i.e. BG) that the LMB could be utilizing.

Just stocking more BG isn't the answer, they would be just expensive fish food. Removing the predators is the answer. Work diligently on removing as many CC as you can, even set out a trot line. By the catfishermen having their lines broken, they are giving the CC a higher education. Once a CC is hooked, they need to be removed.

Maybe fish with a smaller BG as bait. If the CC are used to eating BG, then they might be caught easier on a live BG.

Have you looked at Purina LMB food? It's a pellet that is about 1" dia. If you get to the pond every day, maybe get a bag and toss some out daily. It's easy to get a hook into one, and if the CC get used to eating it, they might be caught easier.

I'd also look into getting some Stubby Steves . It imitates Purina AM600. That might help you catch a CC or 2.

Yea, makes sense to me, when the water was clear and they had the FHM I was dumping in for chow along with the BG, I suspect they ate well. Now, they are on a diet they never asked for blundering around in that soup hoping to run head first into something they can eat....and not one of the turtles looking to eat them first!

I sure have to warn people that do fish in the pond to leave the turtles alone, they are all convinced that left alone, a handful of turtles will clean out a pond of all fish, including catfish many times their size, with little difficulty. When I explain to them I have studied reptiles turtles, frogs, etc all my life, since I was 4 in fact, and that it just is not so, they politely remark "well, things musta changed' or something like that. When I explain that I NEED the turtles I have to clean out the dead, old, and sick fish from the pond since I cannot be out there often enough to catch all that potential problems, they claim that the turtles are not interested in that, they want to eat ALL the fish.

So, I show them how the turtles just sit in the pond all day, sunning, waiting for the evening feeders to go off, and actually line up ( the larger turtles ) and occasionally hold their mouths open in the apparent hopes of catching some of the food on the fly. It is funny to watch. They are also great at eating the floating food that washes up on the edge to close for most fish to ever find or get, but the turtle keep if from going bad.

But geeze, what a show when we accidently get one of our snappers on the line. We are not content with cutting the line, that would leave the hook in its mouth, so the fight is on. Trying to get the hook out of a ticked off snapping turtle mouth may be one of my more exciting events in life. That and attempting to see how far I could drive while sleeping are all gonna stick with me for the rest of my life.

I've used the "drive by braille" method of driving a few times myself, and luckily nothing has happened. I've also pulled over on a long trip to take a nap when that happens too.

Not a lot of turtles are needed for clean-up. Having a few for dinner wouldn't be a bad thing!

esshup, I hear what you are saying, and I know that you are right. It just doesn't quite seem to fit in this case, at least from what I can determine. There are just way to many BG at all times of the year ( they must be spawning more than once ) of all sizes, large, very large, small, tiny, you name it, and nearly every cast will net one. The pond, both sides, are not only full of BG of all sizes, I still have a huge population of FHM swimming around enjoying the silt for cover apparently. As far a dinner is concerned, it does not LOOK like there is a shortage of any kind for the bass.

Interestingly enough, I asked everyone that has been catching the larger CC to look into the stomachs for any sign of fish /bugs /etc. Of the fish that have been caught, none have had any fish in them, it all appears to be a mixture of bugs / Purina material. I have thought it odd that I often see small and medium size BG and FHM swimming within inches of feeding CC and have no fear at all, if I did not know any better, I would swear that the CC and the BG are living in some kind of relationship that is ok with each. I know it can't be so, but NOTHING seems to impact my BG numbers, they just keep increasing and despite the fact that I never stock, I always have a pond stuffed with them.

Perhaps the unique layout of the two ponds married into one has given the BG a place of safety, perhaps the CC are content with the Purina, perhaps there just are not enough CC in the pond to overcome the BG population ( quite possible, that same green water offers the BG excellent cover from predators ) since it is maybe possible for 15 or so pretty big ( especially albino cats that show up so well ) catfish to make such a commotion on the surface while feeding as to give the illusion that there are a lot more CC than there really are.

That thing you mentioned about catching one and that is pretty much it. I remember many years ago I flew out to MO from California to visit my dad and mom on a 40 acres farm they had. She was getting ready to ask for the tab ( colon cancer for 9 years, one tough fighter ) and wanted to see me one last time so I stayed with them for a little while. He had a pond very much like mine ( ironically, not 60 miles from here, where I bought mine over 25 years latter ) and had some large catfish he fed by hand each evening. One evening I caught one and he remarked "well, that's it for two hours" and when I asked him what he meant, he explained that in a small pond, the ruckus caused by trying to land a fish that size in a small body of water always bothered all the fish and there would be no more bites for 2 hours.

Well, of course, I had to see if dad was right, and like most dads, he was. Now, many years latter, I have discovered the same thing in our ponds, the longer it takes to land a big fish, the longer it will take before the bite is back on.

Some of your other points...live bluegill, yes, several of the Amish have tried that when all else failed since they said that was a fail-safe, but our CC ignored it.

Phosloc....have not heard of it, will eagerly look into that, google is my friend after all

I do not know how much I am putting in each month of the Aquamax, I definitely should have been keeping track of it, at least 100 pounds a month combined , probably more, maybe twice that for all I know. The BG feeder, with just 500 in it, goes off for 1 second in the morning and 1 second in the evening. But a one second burst of pellets that small is a LOT of pellets. The plan of trying to grow really big BG with this 500 seems to be going very well, I just seem to be growing very big turtles, birds, CC GC and everything else eating those expensive pellets! Al I can say to that is I have indeed struggled with the question for some time now how much is enough, or to much. IF I use the "15 minute" guideline, then I am not feeding nearly enough, as they clean their plate in a matter of just 3 minutes. But I refuse to go by that, I KNOW that I am not underfeeding in any way, even though the very large catfish are clearly still quite hungry and would stay up there and eat me out of house and home if they had their way, so I stop the feeder at what I can only guess is reasonable, despite the fact they are clearly still hungry. And I have to remember the GC in this equation. They are very gentle feeders of the pellets and actually do me a favor. They do not like to be in the dog fight that takes place in the major center of the pellet spread, the catfish boil is probably to rough for them, they appear to be like gentle giants as they feed, eating all the pellets that fall far from the crime scene, to far away for the catfish to notice. We enjoy watching a fish that appears to be close to 40" or more in length gently pluck one single pellet at a time from the surface without even causing a ripple. Occasionally one of the CC tries to muscle in on them and then a massive slap of their tail or body cause such a spalsh it actually causes a wave action felt through the entire pond! I have to remember the GC in this equation also. My Amish neighbors actually managed to catch one of the first plants years ago, only 13 months ago after the 6 were put in. they were about 10" at the time. This is gonna sound like a fish story, I swear it is not, if I had not measured it myself I would not have believed them even though they won't lie if you point a gun to their heads. Tha fish had grown to 32" long in ponds that were not fed and had NO plant life of any kind, I had NO idea what those GC were eating, in fact, AFTER I put them I realized that they might starve to death. Instead, they found SOMETHING to eat, and eat well, they got huge! I know what you must be thinking, it was already in there, but that is not it. The GC love to swim together near the surface sunning them selves, and we were able to see the remaining 5 ( all 5 are still in there, look like Nile Crocodiles ) nearly every day since that time. Geeze, they are getting so big it is hard to miss them in a small pond. By the way, my neighbors ate the fish based on my advice, which came from PB articles, and they told me it was the BEST fish they had ever had by a long shot!

However, I do not think that the feeders are the problem leading to the green water, it was this way years before the feeders made their first appearance, it is no better or worse since I began feeding. IF it had turned after their introduction, then overfeeding would be a very easy conclusion to come to. Heck, I think I could have gone there by myself....eventually

I really do not know how much water I have. I did take my range finder out to try and size up the ponds, but with two different shapes and two totally different depths, it is very difficult to estimate the amount of water I have. The ponds are not that big, but I DO know how much water I put in since I know how many GPM the pump puts water into the ponds, easy math....even for me, so up to 400,000 gallons of fresh water over a 8 day period every 2 weeks or so is accurate. I still think that is my life saver. The folks that built our pond came back a few months ago at our request, we wanted to see if there was anyway to extend the ponds again. They were amazed at how clean the surface was ( they did comment on how green it was ) and asked if it ever "turned over" as it was going crazy all over this part of the country at the time, but ours remains the same always. We discussed the leak and they also firmly believed that the adding of so much fresh water was nearly like a spring fed pond and the only thing they could think of why our pond never develops any surface algae during the extreme hot months or any fish kills due to lack of oxygen. They have been building ponds for 35 years, and although they have their own pond of course, building ponds and maintaining ponds are not the same thing and do not expect them to have the same expertise as you folks do. Still, it was nice to hear at least one other person with a whole lot more knowledge than I ( didn't have to hunt hard for that ) to confirm what I had long suspected. I may be off base. But that much fresh water is doing something in there I suspect. Perhaps it is the only thing that offsets the fact I have not been able to aerate yet. or maybe it is just as simple as making up for lost water and nothing else!

I will look into the other suggestions you had, all sound good to me, thank you so much!

To measure the feed, just figure how many days it takes to go thru a bag or 2 bags if you're feeding both 500 and 600.

The GC could be eating plants that are growing on the botton that you can't see.

I can show you how to measure your ponds.
Open and let your fingers do the measuring.

LMB need forage that is 1/4 to 1/3 their body size for optimum growth. If your LMB seem to have large heads and smaller bodies, then they might be missing the right sized BG. Go here and print out the chart for LMB. Next time they are fished for, weigh and measure them. Compare them to the chart. If they weigh less than the chart, then they aren't getting enough to eat.

If you want to stop the GC from eating pellets, buy some Stubbie Steves and C&R the GC. That should stop them for this year. They are smart and learn quickly.

Maybe there are no BG in the CC stomachs because they aren't eating when they're full, only when hungry.

What kind of feeders? Are they directional or scatter? When I had 500 in my AquaPro feeder, 1 second = 3# of food.

The fertililzer gave you your green water at the start, but I'll bet the feeders are contributing greatly to the green water now. Did you have the feeders when you had the clear water?

Call Shawn ! You need an eyes on opinion by a fisheries scientist with all the inconsistent data. I am not sure some of things you are seeing make sense when considered together. Pics would help.

The green is a plankton bloom which is the base of the food chain. It is not caused by the fertilizer you put in long ago. Most likely from productive dirt and water added to by the feeding.

I fully concur with everything that ESSHUP and EWEST posted directly above.

Additionally, I believe you need to remove all of the large catfish (those greater than about 24 inches), and you need to get several of the grass carp out of there. They become very ineffective when they get large, and they thrive on the sinking pellets from you feeders.

The catfish compete heavily with the bass for forage when they start getting into the 20+ inch size. As you've found, they can do some pretty significant damage to your pond. They keep the bottom stirred up, adding to the turbidity. They have huge mouths that work like big vacuum cleaners when the feeders go off. They eat, they become bigger, they get hungrier, they cause even more damage to your ponds and your forage population. I'll have to do some digging, but we have a number of good threads here about attracting, catching, and removing big catfish. It is how I got my name, and how I got my start here many years ago. "Chumming" with chunks of shrimp just before dusk, and then baiting large circle hooks with shrimp at dusk can be quite effective. Minnows at dusk, and just after dark, can be pretty effective too.

Jug lines with various baits can be effective around their holes, but I've unfortunately gotten quite a few snappers that way. I like having several snapping turtles in the pond. They help keep it clean, and they are just plain fun to have around. Mine eat a few pellets, but not enough to affect anything. They are too slow to grab anything really healthy.

Same with the grass carp. They are great for a lot of purposes. But, those critters become inefficient weed eaters after a few years. They become huge. They get really lazy and become major consumers of your feed. They don't really bother the other fish, but they turn all that food into something that causes the green stuff in your water. Yes, they are great fun to watch -- but get all but one or two of them out of there for now. Because your water is so dense, I suspect you have few weeds. I wouldn't add any more grass carp until you suspect a weed problem arising. They can be caught with large (about 1-inch diameter) bread balls or paste balls made from moistened fish feed.

You have to figure out if you want big bluegill, big bass, or intermediate of both. You can have catfish, but you can't let them get to destructive sizes -- IMO, over about 20 inches.

Unless you fully understand the ramifications, don't put in any more hybrid bluegill. They serve a great purpose in many ponds, but in a general fishery, they can generate offspring mutt fish, based on green sunfish, that you just don't want. They don't produce a lot of offspring at first, but the offspring of the offspring can proliferate. These offspring don't grow big, they spawn early, and they eat way too much of the offspring of your desirable fish.

Regards,
Ken

I second calling Shawn.

Absolutely. Shawn is a fantastic person to know.

And, if for some reason you can't get Shawn's assistance, see if your Missouri Extension Service has an aquaculture extension service agency or agent. Here in WV, ours are second to none. They are extremely dedicated, extremely well educated (most have PhD's), and they aren't afraid to wade into a pond up to their armpits filled with leeches -- been there, done that, with several of them.

Thanks to all of you for the information. My PC I built I built a few years ago decided to lock up on me multiple times since my last post so I have not been as attentive. Additionally, I took my wife and the Polaris Ranger to the ponds yesterday to get pics and video for all of you ( I will try to post the videos to Photobucket, more on that latter ) and managed to hurt my back more so than normal, so I am down for a bit.

I believe all of you when you say that I may not be seeing what is really going on. I have never owned a pond, these last 7 years is the sum of my experience. As soon as I got here and acquired the pond and built the second one, I subscribed to PB and followed the forums as best I could, and that is the extent of my knowledge. While extremely helpful, and of course years of observations of the fish behavior and such is very valuable, it is no substitute for experience and especially if I would have had other pond owners to help with any advice. Clearly I am lost, and as I pour over the back issues of PB and the posts in these forums, I am able to draw a few conclusions, especially based on the comments so far.

First, I want to make one thing clear, I feel I did not do a very good job on the timeline with regards to feeders, colors, etc. In 2005 the old pond was pretty clear. I had the larger pond dug right next to it in August of that year, ( I still have not had time to read how to post these pics I took yesterday, I will do that right after this ) and it SHOULD have taken months to fill it, so it was completely empty and bare as a bone. In fact, I was going to go down inside to establish some cover, etc as I had read.

However, one of the two spots that the tractor operator came as close as he dared to the old pond, with the idea of latter, when I was ready, we would use a backhoe to break down the 18" walls separating the two ponds caved in about 2 hours after he left. I looked outside and was shocked to see the new pond was already a third filled! One of the walls, a kind of dam so to speak, had partially collapsed, the top two foot of it had given away, and in a matter of a few minutes, the new pond had water everywhere! On a side note here, the folks that built the pond came back out several times the next year over the leak issue, they are convinced that because the pond was not able to fill slowly ( this was the first time in 35 years of building ponds they ever had a pond fill in a matter of a few minutes ) normally by rainfall or even by my well, the sudden rush of that much water before the newly dug material even had a chance to settle was the culprit behind the leak. Anyway, we got to the smaller pond fearing that all the water had drained and the fish would all have croaked, but there was enough water left for them to survive while I immediately began the filling process from the well. After some time ( I cannot remember how long ) both ponds were full and very nice. Not crystal clear by any means, but probably at least 40" or more. We did not feed at that time. I did a small stocking of some HBG CC, RES and LMB twice in the first 18 months, along with 4000 FHM. The ponds stayed the same color, fishing was great, all was fine. Then I came along to take care of that.....

Deciding that it was TO clear, the fertilizer I added ( I now know ) was of the concentrated type that should have been dispersed in small amounts, not by nearly 20 pounds or more of the stuff. So, 18 months into a great system, within 3 days I had a pond as dark and green as a dollar bill, and it has remained that way since. Now here is the thing. We did not begin feeding for over 3 more years, so it does not SEEM to me at least ( but it is clear I have no idea what I am doing, so you kind folks that are setting me straight is of more help than you can imagine ) that the feeders are the culprit because that green color never went away. Each winter it would get better to the point I could see 24" or so ( from the current 6-8 ) but spring and hot sunny days quickly changes it back to the same old deep green.

If it were the feeders, I can't understand the years of the green water prior to their introduction. I THOUGHT perhaps the water was maybe mostly muddy ( I have a clay pond, great clay in fact, and I know the large CC can't be helping it any ) but when I gather it in big clear jugs, the suspended particles that take nearly a week to settle look exactly like the green algae I have suspected from the beginning, I do not see much mud, etc in the water, other than the algae, it looks good.

I am gonna do everything all of you have suggested, all of them sound like excellent ideas. I need to get my water tested ASAP ( and I am so glad it was suggested to have the well water tested also, I would have never thought of that, it is so crystal clear ) I have been wanting to do that for a long time, it is surprising how difficult it has actually been for me to find a place I can use, I keep following links but run into dead ends, etc. But I have been given help here.

As for the big CC, it will be next to impossible for me to do it, I physically can't be there long enough....that and well, uh, er, um..well, I will just blurt it out...FOUR of them are at least as smart as me, more so I suspect. They are so smart I feel like I should start a college fund for them or something. I agree, they need to go, no one has been able to do it, and they try. I was unaware of the traps, I will look into that. I knew the GC were next to worthless as soon as they got big, they are also next to impossible to catch, they are extremely spooky, a slight shadow and they go deep and don't come up for hours. Can't even get an arrow into one.

About the plants. I know most feel that there must be some in the ponds. All I can say to that is that I am still inclined to say they are mostly plant free, or reasonably so, and never did appear to have any, certainly not enough to draw our attention to it, and we were actually looking for some plants, I intended on taking some pictures and trying to identify them. I know there were none in the new pond, and while one would think the old, established pond would have plants, strangely, I have had people, including myself when I was better, walk every inch of the pond trying to map it out, looking for the logs, etc, and we never ran into a single weed even. All the people that have fished both ponds, including me, that have been hung up on the bottom, etc, has never had a single piece of plant life on their hooks, lures, etc. That was BEFORE the first GC were put in ( mapping the old pond ) and additionally, since it was so easy to see most of the pond, we could easily see to the bottom of the old pond in all but the deepest places, all barren of plant life. I may be completely wrong, ( well.... we can safely assume that is a safe bet ) and perhaps what plants have tried to make a stand since then were quickly gobbled up by the GC.

I feel like I also need to say something that I should have done much earlier. I am not really trying to get this pond into any great fishing status for a couple of reasons. I would like to grow some large BG, hence the feeders with Aquamax 500 and 600, but frankly, without any help or attention from me, I already had big BG in the pond, ( but no idea about the numbers, probably much lower than I think ) against all odds. They are getting BIGGER I have noticed, so I think the addition of the Aquamax is doing what it is intended for. But I only want to do that because we feel so badly for our 86 year old neighbor who is caring for his 82 year long time friend who barely knows who he is anymore. His only delight left in life is when he comes down and catches big BG. For that reason alone we are willing to spend thousandths to make his last years just a little bit better. My wife and I are of the type that just do not feel well at all unless we are helping someone less fortunate than us, and he sure qualifies!

But for us, frankly, the fish are pets. When I do fish, I release everything! We just want a healthy, good looking pond, with some of everything, turtles included ,and maybe a lot of big BG. Bass? I guess that would be nice, the the truth is I have NEVER been able to catch them, I caught ONE in 7 years, that is why I brought in the pro, thinking there must not be any in the pond, however, they were there....and they were hungry! I STINK at it. I watch TV shows all the time on it, buy the right equipment, even fished along side the pro and duplicated him, I just don't seem to have the touch. I am at a loss on how I will ever be able to cull or balance the bass population ( or the slightest idea for that matter what the population of the bass, or any of the fish is , probably MUCH lower density than I thought ) since there appears to only be one guy in my zip code that has figured out how to catch them! I know bass fishing can be considerably more difficult than much of the other fish in the pond....except maybe that huge albino ( Moby ) that has eluded us for years, I know he is smarter than a 5TH grader! We already SEEM have enough large BG that it is no problem to catch them, sometimes one per cast, and I have no idea how we pull that off considering how little I know about what I am doing. As I said before, with the exception of the poor bass, the rest of the population seems to thrive in this rich, green water.

These ponds, for the most part, despite my best intentions, have been on their own. Over the last seven years, my TOTAL stocking only consisted of perhaps 40 albino CC, 100 normal CC, 50 RES, 8 GC several hundred LMB and same for BG. There were no additional stocking for five years, this spring, for some reason I added 100 CC that were 6" with the intentions of removing the larger fish and replacing them with these, then realizing the folly of my decision. MEDS make me do really stupid thing, I really was not this much of an idiot prior to my snooze fest, I promise In addition, I also added 100 HYB, which I now see may have been a mistake also.

The RES is an excellent example of what I am trying to convey about how little I have been able to contribute to the health of this pond, and yet something is still working in my favor. They are not a fish that is normally available, only a "special" on rare occasion, and in the very first small stocking, I put in 50 of them, as well as a number of albino CC, which was also a special. The albinos grew quickly, occasionally we would go out in the evening and hand toss in some catfish food, and even in green water they were easy to spot and keep track of. As the years went by, they all got in the perhaps 8+ pound size, but when we installed the two feeders last year and got a real good look at the fish in numbers that were feeding, we were quite surprised to see perhaps 15 or more smaller albinos, of TWO distinct size classes, some were only 6" or so, some were in the 2-3 pound class. They looked to my uneducated mind to be of two separate spawns, maybe a year or so apart. More of a surprise to us is the RES. I had told people that if they ever caught one, to toss it back. But with only 50, and they were quite small, I thought perhaps they all took up residence in the belly of Moby or Darth Vader, maybe even a bass, because I never had anyone report that they had caught one in 7 years. I was never able to find them again on fish day, so there was never any additional stocking, that original 50 seven years ago is it. However, a few months ago we had a large family that used to be our neighbors bring their children over to fish ( ex Amish, the entire family really knew how to fish, so great to watch even 5 year old girls bait and unhook their own fish, even cast! ) and I stayed out with them the entire morning. I was caught totally of guard when one of the kids found a pocket of BG, all sizes, of which at least 10 were RES, and those fish were small, clearly young fish. Those were the first confirmed sighting of a RES in seven years, I assumed they were long gone, I had all but forgotten about them. Yet this child hauled in one after another, I unhooked each one carefully, they were indeed a different fish each time, all young fish, most definitely red ears, and I finally told him stop fishing in that part of the pond, I needed time to think about this. I am still a little surprised that of those 50 little red ears seven years ago, enough managed to make it to where they are actually reproducing.


The thing is, I don't think I have properly emphasized how seldom this pond is fished. Maybe twice a year during some years. At least one year it was not touched. The pond is basically self maintaining. Most of the fish we have, with the single exception of the grass carp, are all spawns that continue to keep the pond with enough of everything to make it a pretty good fishing pond actually. Well, that good fishing rule is out and you need to be a genius assuming you wanna go after Moby or Darth Vader If I feel up to it, I will go out, but I release everything. There has been entire summers with no takers. People get upset when they catch a lot of big BG but see large cats ( especially the albinos that really gets them excited ) but cannot catch them, even the people that are VERY good at catching catfish normally. They think the CC are immune to any known tactics and get discouraged, don't want to come back. And, because I do not normally stock ( it is not a money issue, it is a physical issue, every time I do it I am in bed for the next 3 days, unable to move ) I ask them to throw back the really large BG and limit the number they take home. None of the people that do come out to fish rarely are any good at bass either, and try as they may, they get skunked as I do, insisting the pond has no bass, even as they watch maybe a dozen or more bass spawns 4-6 inches long all along the bank where they fish. Were it not for the one guy in our part of MO that apparently knows how to fish for bass, I would sign a document in court swearing we had no bass over 6"!!

By the way, the two feeders are Moultrie directional feeders, hold 100#, have solar chargers, excellent products. They shoot the feed in an area over the deep end of both ponds, as soon as I figure out how to attach the pics I took you can see them and where they are aimed. Might also explain why the fish always like to stay in these areas of the ponds and seem to pretty much ignore most of the rest.

We bought this farm, with the 43 acres and the one small pond, and most of the acreage being hardwoods, thinking that I might still be able to hunt and fish once again. I spent 45 years hunting very hard in the high Sierra mountains of CA at up to 10,000' walking nearly straight up and down, all of it was very difficult, but very rewarding. I knew before I ever recovered from that 13 hour surgery I would never be walking up ANY hill again, much less a ten thousand foot mountain. Buying a farm in very flat ground, covered with woods, something very different than the country I had spent my life in, was my only shot. When we got here, I had the pain under better control since the pain pump was working, and we cleared the 7 acres behind the house, put in food crops, had the new pond dug, put up tree stands ( something completely foreign to me ) and within a year were able to attract many deer and turkey right into our backyard. But two things happened that ended my dreams of being able to resume my hunting status. My pain levels kicked in to high gear when the pump decided to take a shot at killing me....and, after watching the deer and turkey all day, every day from our backdoor and bedroom window with binoculars and 45X spotting scope, we made the mistake of naming some of them

I know all of you encourage me to post as long as I need to, but I really feel the need to apologize for the length of this, and I know in my attempts to try and give all of you as much information as possible I sometimes become more of a "carpet bomber" rather than stick to the points. If it helps explain any, the reason behind most of that is I am alone out here in the woods, just my wife, and she is gone often. Very alone. I only leave the property line some years only 4 times, each quarter I have to travel 2 hours to Springfield MO to the Dr for more tests, make sure the rods have not shifted, make sure the massive amounts of opiates are not destroying my liver, etc. So I have extremely limited exposure to any other people, and I am a very sociable type guy, so the last 7 years have been tough in that regard. Nearly all the Amish friends move out of state. I have not had another person to talk to about the pond for help, there are very limited resources locally available to me, and my pain levels pretty much restrict me to the point that I am not really able to go very far, very often in the first place. I have not been into town in over 2 years, my wife does all the shopping, etc and I have not driven the car in a LONG time. Where would I go Anyway, hope you can maybe understand why I have gone overboard in my attempts to get help / pass on any requests for information and such, I have had so many questions and concerns for so many years it is SO VERY NICE to finally have people that are actually willing to put up with my dribble and help me with things that may prove to not really be issue at all when the smoke clears, I don't know, but it sure is nice to have such knowledgeable people willing to find out! I did take a lot of pictures yesterday and two short videos, I will go to the section that explains "how to" and get the important pictures out to all of you and additionally, I think I can ( another downside to living out here is we have a terribly slow ISP, so all uploads are very time consuming, but I have a lot of that ) upload the videos to Photobucket and link all of you to it directly, I think they will show you much better the size of the pond, the color, the odd layout, etc.

I am so thankful for all the suggestions you have given me, and I will pursue all of them. I will report back as soon as I have anything to report. Again, thank all of you so very much!

Catbird, as we've said, don't worry about the long posts. I think they are interesting and when you get the pictures posted, we'll have a good idea of what needs to be done.
Did you find a place to send the pond & well water to be tested?