Working with a guy to try and convey species of alternative forage that can reproduce/establish in a pond environment that have been historically difficult to source and/or are cost prohibitive to stock. My hope is to create a reliable source of alternative forage that can be shipped to our PB family at an affordable price.

Here's the species list I'm compiling for him to begin working on - please let me know if I'm missing anything you'd like to see:

Lake Chubsucker
Bluntnose Minnow
Spotfin Shiner
Johnny Darter
Banded Kilifish

Would you like to see any crayfish species?

Lastly, I'm also trying to work on setting reasonable pricing as fishery managers will likely be ordering larger qtys of fish than garden pond owners, etc. Any feedback on pricing tolerance for the species listed would be helpful so I can give him some numbers to shoot for.

Thanks guys, hopefully this will provide a good resource for all of us soon!

Inland silversides ?

I'd like to see some data/information on how hardy those individual species are in regards to shipping/transporting.

Papershells always seem to be in short supply too.....

I definitely want on the list for those three I highlighted. The others are possibilities as well.

As Scott said, possibly papershells as well unless you find they're easy to source here.

Josh I can give you papershells and that creek of yours has to be loaded with them, just gotta find the right bait and placement of traps.

I'll call Todd and Greg and see if they are interested in anything listed here.

What are the chances of getting everything delivered to my place this weekend?

Definately include papershell crayfish. I'm not convinced that johnny darter are a feasable forage species because the adults are generally too small (2"-2.5"), they not very prolific - too few young per year, are very easy prey similar to FHM, and IMO they have reduced value and demand as a forage item, but would be useful for some speciality fisheries. They are good pond spawners and spawn on substrates similar to FHM.

I think this minnow has its place in unique forage. Maybe only in the north I don't know. I can tell you they are one hardy minnow.

Central Mudminnow

What's In a Name?
Central mudminnow: the "mudminnow" is a minnow-sized fish named for its habit of escaping into the soft sediments; "central" refers to its occurrence in central North America
Umbra (Um´-bra) means "shade" in Latin, more than likely referring to its dark habitat
limi (lee´-mee) means "mud" in Latin

Where Do They Live?
Central mudminnows occur in all drainages of Minnesota, but they are most common in the northern and central parts of the state. They prefer cool bogs and mashes, weedy ponds and ditches, and small, slow-moving streams. These waters normally have bottoms of soft sediments (but not deep silt). Central mudminnows are commonly found with northern redbelly dace, pearl dace, and brook sticklebacks, among others.
"Cool Fact": Central mudminnows survive periods of low water levels by "burrowing" into soft sediments. They can also breathe air.

How Big Do They Get?
How Long Do They Live?
As the name suggests, the central mudminnow is a small fish. It can reach 125-178 mm (5-7 in) long in Minnesota, but 70-80 mm (2.8-3.2 in) is a more typical range. The central mudminnow generally lives for up to 4 years. The apparent record is 7 years.

What Do They Eat?
The young's diet is made up of newly hatched snails and clams, copepods, and waterfleas. The central mudminnow basically is a bottom feeder. The main foods of the adults are insect larvae, small snails and clams, and sideswimmers. Large mudminnows will occasionally take small fish.

What Eats Them?
In some habitats, central mudminnows are eaten by young northern pike, sunfishes, and bullheads. Fish-eating birds, muskrats, and foxes also consume this species.

How Do They Reproduce?
Central mudminnows spawn in the spring (usually April in Minnesota), when water temperatures are 10-15° C (50-59° F). They gather in the spring-flooded areas of streams and ponds where there is plenty of vegetation. No nest is built. The female lays one egg at a time on the vegetation and the male fertilizes it. The female guards the eggs until they hatch. A female can lay a total of about 425-450 eggs. The embryos hatch in about 7-10 days.

Conservation and Management
The central mudminnow is a very common and widespread species and has no special conservation status in Minnesota. Some anglers use it as a baitfish because it survives so well in a bait bucket.

Good one mnfish. This was one fish I was equally curious about. Jury is still out, officially, though Travis (CJBS2003) had this to say about them:

Muskrats eat them? HUH??? I'd really like to know how they figured that one out.

I've never seen a Fox fishing either.......

I'll strike JD from the list, and add Papershells.

Anyone have experience buying LCS? What size and price?

If the MN DNR writes or says it...it must be true ESSUP. Got the info from a page of theirs. I thought muskrats were vegitarians but what do I know.

I don't want to hijack TJ's thread but why do sticklebacks get such a bad wrap. It's one of the best baits to fish with on my ponds. I assume the BCP are eating them without hooks in their backs.

I've had sticklebacks show up in my bait buckets so I've used them along with the flatheads. Never had a fish bite a stickleback.

Lake chubsuckers (LCS) are quite rare and maybe impossible to find for sale by a fish farm. Currently I don't think any fish hatchery has them for sale. Overtons in TX raised them for one year, then quit. So where does one get them? A few are sold by esoteric aquarium, native fish shops. I think LCS are fairly hard or difficult to economically raise. They do not or rarely accept pellet fish food. They can be hard to harvest when needed. Since they are a soft rayed fish, I think they are very good forage fish for predators such as bass. Catfish probably readily eat them.

Muskrats may be primarily vegetarians, but they are opportunists also. They relish freshwater mussels, and their middens often contain shells by the bucketfull.

If these Mudminnows tend to burrow into the sediment during drought conditions, then I can see where Muskrats, Coons, and maybe even Foxes might exploit their vulnerability.

I am thinking I paid $2 or $3 a piece for my LCS when I bought them from Overton's back in 2009. I watched mine spawning today in the shallows over old willow tree root masses covered in algae. Water temp was 66 degrees.

One species I would love to get my hands on is the brook silverside. However, they are very sensitive to handling so they probably would be a nightmore to keep alive during shipping.

Eastern silvery minnows are another species I think warrants consideration. Eastern Silvery Minnow (Hybognathus regius) are easily cultured in shallow earthen ponds. Raney (1942) describes raising several thousands minnows in a 0.15-acre pond ranging from four inches to four feet in depth. The pond was fertilized three times during the summer with cottonseed meal, and fresh-cut timothy was scattered along the pond's shallow borders several times. The bottom was silt and lacked vegetation except for filamentous algae later in the summer. The fish were not fed. Spawning occurred in late April and early May. A stocked total of 68 males and 14 females produced 6,650 young 4-7 cm (1.5-2.75 in) in length by the end of September.

I am still personally experimenting with this species, but think it could be an excellent pond forage fish. It spawns much earlier than other species, making it an excellent early forage for YOY predatory species.

I think Greg Grimes a while ago either shocked or seined up a bunch of LCS, only to have them die before he could get them delivered. Maybe he'll see this and tell us his experience with them.

At first glance the LCS seems to be not so differant from a gold fish, would gold fish not be a substitute for the LCS if not able to source the LCS?

Bobby, there's a big difference between LCS and goldfish.

what advatages to LCS have over gold fish as forage and sustaining population in pond?

LCS are America born and bred (actually they will inbreed like West Virginia citizens, they took virgin out of west) but we love them anyway as we need someone to sell our worn out 4x4 to. Goldfish were sent over here by commies to destroy our country. They do it one pond at a time as they are a common carp with a punk hair dye. A real disappointment similar to your prom date that had a half box of tissues where you wanted to rest your head. Do not let a pretty face fool you, you need to go for character. Buy American.

LMAO!

Reading that just made my day!

TJ...I am ordering paper-shells as soon as they
are available from these folks.

www.smithcreekfishfarm.com

They say that is June to September.

I will let ya know how the paper-shells fare
in their travels from New York to Texas.

This is also an interesting website about crayfish:

www.crayfishworld.com/internationalusa2.htm

Zep, make sure you get next day shipping and not 2 day. Had some shipped here from New York 2 day shipping and most were dead. They were replaced, but 2nd batch came next day and were perfect.

esshup I will do that, thanks so much.

do they sell them by the pound?
how many do you think is a conservative
amount to order for a 4 acre pond?

Yes, by the pound. As for an amount, I'd make sure you have ample habitat for them. Large rocky areas (like riprap) for them to hide in or they won't survive long.

IIRC the client stocked 5#/ac without enough habitat and very few have been observed. One pond that didn't have any fish predators, when drawn down, didn't show any signs of the papershells. I'm thinking turtles got them due to no habitat to hide in.

Ok thank you. I do need to add riprap anyway.

I caught a scualpin while running a trap line once (had a trout poll along) and rigged it up on a 110 conibear. Had a rat in it the next day.

On the Brook stickle backs, I have poor luck with them when I use them for bait. But in North Dakota they seem to be very popular. A new pond I have been playing on have a LARGE population of brook sticle backs. and I am tempted to uae them for bait, and they will undoubtly be forage for the WE SMB RES an YP going in.

any one learn much about the smaller stickle back, are they three spine or 5 spine?

Some ponds here have them and they seem ahfull bony and small, but you can see several hundreds swimming around in schools.

Euopean rudd?? I have read that southern bait growers mix them with GS to get more size and it breeds out the pre natal gene that makes GS females less fertile as they get older. just what i ahave read...

The rudd is illegal here but our state record is over a pound.

Never read that about rudd before. GSH do have issues with fertility as they get older but that is caused by a parasite, not cross breading with rudd.

Mark, why are you ordering from NY instead of AR or SE Texas? Is there some advantage to them?

Dave they were the only source I knew about for paper-shells. Red-swamps are much easier to come by in and around Texas, but they have a bad rap. In my searches I found paper-shells somewhat hard to come by...some sellers I ran across that had them would show "out of stock" or they didn't ship them, or if they delivered them there was some large minimum total order. What sources do you know about where I could get say $500 worth of paper-shells shipped and/or delivered to my pond? The shorter the distance the better.

At one time I contacted some Louisiana crawfish farms on the www. They were all willing to ship them to me. Or, you could just drive down and pick them up. You're not that far.

ZEP, have you found any other sources for papershells or are you still going with Smith Creek in the next few months? I'll be very interested to hear how the shipment turns out.

As a fur trapper I can tell you for a fact muskrats love fish, its a very good bait to lure them with, they mostly hunt and eat fish in winter when vegetation is sparse and the fish move slower. Foxes do fish, they will wade out in shallow water and wait for an unsuspecting fish, they will try to either snatch it with teeth or swat it to the bank with a paw