I am thinking out loud here, so what do you think?
First understanding goals.
My goals are to grow some double digit LMB ASAP, and I have learned, that is the goal of most of us older guys. Maybe because we r running out of time or maybe we lack patients.
I have done and will do a heavy stocking of forage fish to reduce energy output from my LMB. I. E. Couch potato lmb
I will introduce Overtons CB Jumpers in or around June 1st
for their genetics.
I have been thinking about introducing some pellet trained LMB this fall, maybe around the same time the HSB will be introduced to the pond. I think I understand these pellet trained lmb will not reach my desired goals but won't they at some point, come together with the CB Jumpers to make an aggressive F1, that would make the double digit LMB while leaving the first stocked CB Jumpers to go on to double digit lmb ? Or am I better off just staying with my first decision, and just stock the CB Jumpers?
What u think?
Tracy

Tracy, I would stay with pure Florida Camelot Bell LMB for once in a lifetime opportunity of maintaining world class genetics!

We are presently culling existing Florida LMB in order to increase CB genetics. My plan is to improve LMB genetics, not dilute them - would not want to dilute genetics with native feed trained LMB- but thats just me..

George

There is a lot unknown about the subject of your question. There are some threads here on many aspects of that goal. Read up on catchability and growth rates. Look into the research on TPWD share a lunker genetics and studies on integration of Fla and Northern LMB in TX waters. Here is a bit to ponder.

Subspecies Composition of Angled and Electrofished Largemouth Bass in Texas Reservoirs , Dijar J. Lutz-Carrillo, and Spencer Dumont in Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeast Association of Fish and Wildlife. Agencies 66:75–81, 2012 Proc . The study’s results provide biologists with a provocative concept that, in southern waters (natural integrated zone of FLMB and NLMB), FLMB likely are more difficult to angle than NLMB, but the phenotype (genetic trait) of reduced angler susceptibility (catchability) is mitigated (reduced) by introgression (genetic mixing), even at low levels of NLMB genes. While many factors may function concurrently to determine angling susceptibility, including fishing pressure, naivety of individual fish, learned lure avoidance, and stress from catch and release , we now know that catchability is a genetic and heritable trait as was previously discussed in earlier Cutting Edge articles ( see Garrett (2002) and Philipp et al. (2009) ). Note that when pure FLMB were removed from the dataset numbers (leaving only crosses with high levels of FLMB genetic influence) the trait of reduced catchability disappeared. Stated differently the addition of only a small amount of NLMB genetics caused poor catchability to disappear.
Trophy fish (≥13 lbs.) from introgressed populations are represented disproportionately as non-introgressed FLMB relative to the frequency of FLMB in the general population ( TPWD, unpublished data). Thus, in an appropriate environment, genetic composition appears to be a critical component of maximum size in largemouth bass. While most of the differences in growth and maximum size between these subspecies are likely due to intrinsic physiological differences, behavioral differences, such as reduced angling susceptibility, may also play a role. FLMB that are potentially less susceptible to angling would be removed from populations at reduced rates relative to non-introgressed NLMB or crosses, allowing a greater proportion of FLMB to reach an older age and greater size. However I recall TPWD data also showing many of the share-a-lunker fish were high FLMB percentage crosses. From Pond Boss – The Cutting Edge.




From 2010-2012, fifteen trophy-sized hatchery coded wire tag (CWT) bass weighing 8-12.5 lbs were recaptured during FWC long term monitoring samples or largemouth bass angler tournaments. Furthermore, 77 largemouth bass weighing 8-15 lbs were collected in 2013, of which only two were not identified as pure Floridanus based on genetic micro-satellite analysis of fin clips. Most of these are likely hatchery reared fish as prior to any stocking, the percentage of pure Floridanus in Lake Talquin was reported at 12%. These long-term data suggest that the stocking of advanced fingerling Florida largemouth bass reared on live prey into a recruitment limited system with abundant, appropriate size forage improved trophy largemouth bass abundance and enhanced the quality of a trophy bass fishery.


The field of conservation genetics, harnessing the power of next-generation sequencing, is rapidly adapting SNP technology (see below note * ) due the advantages of SNP markers including abundance, even genome distribution, ease of multiplexing and lab-to-lab reproducibility. Here we sequenced the transcriptomes of M. salmoides, M. floridanus and their F1 hybrid and identified a set of 3,674 SNP markers with putative fixed allelic differences between species from 2,112 unique genes. We have developed two multiplex panels of 62 SNP markers for the MassARRAY platform and validated their capacity for assessing integrity and hybridization in hatchery and wild populations of bass (n=700). Our data indicates a complexity in natural intergrade populations overlooked with previous marker systems.

• Note
Single Nucleotide Polymorphism (SNP), a variation at a single site in DNA, is the most frequent type of variation in the genome.
The basic principles of SNP array are the same as the DNA microarray. These are the convergence of DNA hybridization, fluorescence microscopy, and solid surface DNA capture. The three mandatory components of the SNP arrays are:
1. An array containing immobilized allele-specific oligonucleotide (ASO) probes.
2. Fragmented nucleic acid sequences of target, labeled with fluorescent dyes.
3. A detection system that records and interprets the hybridization signal.
The ASO probes are often chosen based on sequencing of a representative panel of individuals: positions found to vary in the panel at a specified frequency are used as the basis for probes. SNP chips are generally described by the number of SNP positions they assay. Two probes must be used for each SNP position to detect both alleles; if only one probe were used, experimental failure would be indistinguishable from homozygosity of the non-probed allele.

It is interesting to me that TP&W only hatch pure Share Lunker DNA tested FLMB – no F1 intergrades.
Share Lunker data does not support larger growth from F1s.
I do have a problem with mixing politics and science however – I have received private opinions that cannot be stated publicaly due to politics.

Below link by Ray Sasser, outdoor writer for Dallas Morning News, states his reservations:

http://www.dallasnews.com/sports/more-sp...ker-program.ece

We raised F1s for 10 years. There is a good reason for our discontinuation of this program. It is called outbreeding depression. There was a talk about outbreeding depression in largemouth bass at one of the Pond Boss conferences that, along with our experience in the field, influenced me to halt my breeding program. Basically, once you have Florida/Northern bass interbreeding, you may go down a road of irreversible decline, or be required to manage by adding pure genetics on regular basis.

Pure genetics breed true. Avoid possible inbreeding by supplementing with more pure genetics down the road.

Thanks for your thoughts on this, as I said I was thinking out loud when I posted this, and was interested in opinions of others. I am going to stay with the CB Jumpers for the Genetics. I was just looking at the F1 that would come from the feed trained LMB and the CB Jumpers. I think the CB Jumpers are catchable Floridians. The Texas rigged worm will always catch fish even when everything else has failed. Did you know the State of Louisiana tried to outlaw the plastic worm back in the 70's because it worked so well. And I read a study once that said it was the only artificial bait that the LMB would hit time after time. Never learned not to bite it.

Tracy

Suggest you read this thread for a good review of your question. There is more to come from later work in process about what occurs in a population with Fla and Northerns over time.

http://forums.pondboss.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=184318&page=1

Tracy, if I had a brand new lake, which I don’t, with a unique opportunity to stock pure gentics, I would go with the pure genetics.

Reviewing all this biological info from Eric’s link has my head spinning, so my standard procedure is to go with my fishery consultant’s recommendation on stocking pure LMB genetics.

The Camelot Bell Florida LMB “jumpers” that you are scheduled to receive will be at least 6th generation Florida LMB, each year brood stock selected from the best of the best, based on fast growth, catchability and confirmation.

You can always add native LMB but will never have an opportunity that you have at this time - I am experiencing a severe case of pond envy!
George

Good deals worth of great info in ewest shared link. George are you still having good catch rates with those CBLMB stocked. Just wanting to know if any of them get Lock jaw.

The sun just broke thru the clouds a few minutes ago and temp hit 65 degrees first time in weeks ...the past week we have had rain, sleet and record snowfall....no complaints ... good drought ending rain.
No fishing.

We had been culling LMB heavyly and catching ~16 inch LMB with diffeent markings on back, so could be CBLMB F1s?

Odds on catching one out of 8 fin clipped Florida CBLMB stocked in two acres of Florida bass is slim, but will give them a good shot this weekend.

G/

Thank you ewest and George for your response to my question here. ewest, your post reminded me why I chose to go with Overtons pure strain Floidia lmb. I consider myself LUCKY,LUCKY,LUCKY to be on their list at Overtons to receive their CB Jumpers. And thank you Overtons for your comments here in my request for opinions on my pond stocking. My mind wonders sometimes and it is real nice to have a forum such as PB. And George, I hope we might fish this pond together and talk about the oil patch. And if I do everything right, then maybe we might catch one of the double digit lmb that might be in this pond someday.
Tracy

so what problems do F1 bass have down the line? Is it just lowered potential to be giants (10+)? Or is it reproduction and lowered health of the fish? I see it get said a lot, but no one with any quantitative data about what the "depression" is. Are these fish worse off than native bass in growth potential and health?

I ask because our 2 acre pond has F1's, but we really don't care about getting any fish over even 6. We just want the fish to be easy for the kid's to catch and have fun with.

taylor 5887, back up a few post here and read what ewest has posted here. It might help with an answer for you. As I understand, it's the future genetics of the F1 and not knowing where the future will go with the new fingerlings each year. Not knowing what the future brings you verses keeping a pure strain and knowing what to expect in the future. I hope this helps, or maybe someone here can do a better job of explaining.
Tracy

TGW1, Did you know the "wackey Worm" technique was actually started back in the 60's. It was a old guide's secret over here on Toledo Bend in Texas and Louisiana. Lot of people thought it was something new that came out just a few years back.

I'm a scientist in another field, so I'd still like to see some data, but it may just not be available, as I know it takes a lot of money and planning to do the studies you'd need to answer any of the questions I (and others have posed).

My take away from the discussions was that the concern is not quite as bad as it sounds if you have the fish in your pond and good forage for future generations. But, if it did concern you, you could add even small numbers of a pure strain fish to combat any effects you might see.

I'm not downplaying the experts there and here, but it seems like a lot of "best guesses".

Taylor, at one time I was a scientist in another field and "still like to see some data, but it may just not be available"....

I am seriously committed to "pure" genetics, based on current field experience, observation and fundamentals.
"Best guesses" have less serious consequences with pure genetics than dealing with the unknown....IMO.
George

If they've been in there for years you may still have F1s -- your original stockers or those offspring from a FL/Native cross if you stocked populations of both. But you will also have generations of backcrosses of FL/Native F1s onto either parental stock, in any order.

It's not necessarily that the F1s themselves will have problems. It's the future generations that may suffer from outbreeding depression. Hence part of the popularity of HSB and HBG is that they have poor recruitment and you get the extra hybrid vigor of a F1 cross without having to worry about outbreeding depression.

The wikipedia articles on backcrossing and outbreeding depression are both pretty good.

Flame, I also remember the wacky worm in the 60's. And, it was on Toledo Bend. I thought that it was about the stupidest idea ever. And then, I almost got my arm broken.

Flame, I started fishing TB in or around 1973 and would take vacation there all through the 70's and 80's. We never fished wacky worms but did fish without a weight sometimes. I remember getting so sunburned in those days. We did not know about skin cancer back then. I remember schooling 5lb lmb. That lake was crazy back then.

As the story goes,The guides were even struggling to catch fish when while sitting around the marina they noticed a older couple coming in each day with large sacks of fish. Curiosity got the best of them and asked how they were catching the fish. The couple was vacationing from out of state and had never even been bass fishing before.They had inquired at the marina what bait to use to catch bass. They sold them a bag of purple Crème Worms and some hooks. On the water not knowing any better they just hooked the worm in the middle like a live worm they would use back home in their pond. And as they say...The rest is history!! A very good friend's grandfather was one of those guides.

Oh the plastic worm, there has never been a better Bass bait, no matter how u fish it. Texas, Wackey, Carolina style. To build a better mouse trap, never going to happen when talking about the plastic worm. And that is why Louisiana was looking to out law it lol
Grandpa tell me about the good ol days
Tracy

I guess I should have said "stringers of fish" instead of "sacks" back then.The first Skeeter boats had no live wells but the next generation at least came with a compartment to keep your beer in. At least that's what we thought it was for!! TGW1 do you remember nailing aluminum pie plates and hanging beer cans on trees to find your way in and out of the flooded timber? Every time we saw that, We thought we stumbled onto somebodys honey hole!

it was like a flooded forest back then, I even remember hearing of boats that would bump a tree and it would fall into the boat and some fisherman were injured back then. And yes we would drown a minnow around those beer cans stuck on limbs, our thinking was crappie holes lol, and the pie plates were marker's for so called boat lanes haha, many a lower unit is still on the bottom of the lake. We would always hire a guide to take us on the first day or two to locate the bass but we would only remember one spot out of many because all that flooded timber looked the same. People today don't realize that there were 60' trees under the water and above the water line.
Tracy

I have not seen reported data or studies stating that there is outbreeding depression in Fla X Northern LMB in the natural integrated zone SE US through TX. Not once in probably 200 studies has a scientist mentioned it. In addition I have not had a Fisheries Scientist or pond owner say they have encountered it in a private lake or pond.

The genesis of the idea came from genetic survey in IL and other northern states and did not deal with long term events but with stocking Fla in cold climates. The link earlier in this thread is the first time I have seen the subject brought up and IMO it is not a problem in the area mentioned (south US).

As a future pondmeister -- and it's getting more "future" every time it rains, haven't been able to move dirt for nearly a month -- I've looked at Tiger Bass from Am Sportsman. However, this talk of inbreeding and depression from F1 is kinda scary!

First Question: Does this really matter much when you are talking the next ten or twelve years? I'd like some 10 lb plus bass, but not if they won't bite -- I have grandkids.

Second Question: I've been told that ponds peak out around ten to twelve years, then decline. Best thing to do is either drain the pond or poison the fish and start over at that point.

Is this true with modern feeding and fertilization? Or is it only true when bass get stunted due to insufficient forage?

Thanks for your input. My pond is in NE Texas near Marshall, approx 8 to 10 acres.

anthropic, I am pretty sure we met up at PBC and it's was a pleasure to meet you and your son. Now as far as the lmb getting Lock Jaw, I think all lmb act that way at times. It's like a light switch sometimes, fishing and no bites, when all of a sudden they turn on and bite till dark or till 9 am. And like you, I looked at the Tiger lmb, and I think it is pretty cool with what has been done with the Genetics of those fish. I also looked at the Camalot Bell's lmb and I found that those lmb have grown to the high side of the double digit lmb and of those that were shown to be great catches were all caught on artificial baits (plastic). And as discussed here on the Forum, you can always use live bait(bluegills) or such things, to get a bite. I am not trying to persuade you in any direction, because if we all did the same or acted the same, the world would be Bor Ring
Tracy

We stocked F1 intergrades and were consistently disappointed with growth rates as seen in fishery surveys. Not sure what the problem was… We also have surveyed lakes where the infamous tiger bass (from other sources) had been stocked, and we were disappointed with those as well. Actually, I was downright bored with my largemouth bass program until I was able to acquire these Camelot Bell brood stock. Now I feel that I have my groove back.

With pure genetics in a new pond you have something you can count on to breed true year after year. You can start your own breeding program in a brood pond, and you have something that has true bartering value with your network of pond boss buddies. Sell or trade your culled overcrowded bass. But if you mix up the genetics or stock hybrids, then you won't know what you have in a few years.

If you have a new body of water to work with in southern waters, I don't see why you would want anything other than pure Florida genetics.

Because of the scientifically proven fact that Fla LMB are less catchable. Because many of American Sportfish's customers complained after ASF stocked all pure Fla LMB that there were no fish in the lake ( they were there and big but not catchable) AFS breed F-1s. There are + and - with every stocking system so it depends

If you want a true trophy LMB lake then ok but realize you may fish a lot with only a few bites and the fish may be bigger.

I suggest that everyone get a copy of this study and read it.


Subspecies Composition of Angled and Electrofished Largemouth Bass in Texas Reservoirs , Dijar J. Lutz-Carrillo, and Spencer Dumont in Proceedings of the Annual Conference of the Southeast Association of Fish and Wildlife. Agencies 66:75–81, 2012 Proc .

I well remember the first bass I ever caught!
It was more than 80 years ago – creek fishing for “perch” with worms and cane pole.
Ran out of worms and hooked on a berry blossom!
Been fishing for LMB for most of my life until I got bored and began pursuing other species.

I fished Lake Fork in the early 80’s when the first rise flooded the farm ponds where pure Florida LMB had been stocked and left long enough to get maximum reproduction.
Lake Fork Florida LMB hard to catch – nope – only got hard to catch after being caught and released so many times IMO.
Hundred fish days – until TP&W introduced slot limits.
Got bored with LMB and began fishing for striped bass on Lake Texoma.

I agree with Todd ... “Actually, I was downright bored with my largemouth bass program until I was able to acquire these Camelot Bell brood stock. Now I feel that I have my groove back”.

George

Many thanks to everyone who replied! Obviously there are a lot of opinions out there from very sharp folks re genetics. I will try to do some more research & reading before making a final decision. Catchability is a big factor -- I have three grandkids -- which is why F1 appeals. However, pure Camelot Bell genetics is tempting as well.

On the second question, what do you think of the advice I was given about starting over every 10 to 12 years? Does this still apply if you keep up the cover, fertilize, and feed?