Hey all;

First off, sure have missed everyone. I've been buried with a new project the past four weeks and trying to keep my head above water. Things are starting to smooth out, thankfully, and I hope to get back in touch with my Pond Boss forum family soon.

I announced earlier this Summer we pulled off a successful SMB spawn in one of my reproduction ponds - we were excited and thankful for the guidance of the forum in getting us there. Now that Fall approaches - I need to seine and find a home for my little bronze beauties.

Rex is headed here the week of October 11th and has offered to take as many back home with him as we need - provided some of you out there are in need of YOY SMB. I believe those he can't deliver directly he's planning on shipping via air freight as he has successful experience doing so.



I didn't discover I had SMB recruitment until around 6-8 weeks ago when I finally verified via angling. I caught around a dozen all about this size - 4", with a little low WR. Since that time I've been feeding 2x daily AM 500 and now introducing 600. To help boost growth I've also been hand feeding them .75 - 1" bullfrog tadpoles I gather from my other ponds - 4x week about 250 daily. They hardly hit the water before the SMB obliterate them. Great fun!

I can't estimate with any confidence total quantity of YOY, but I'm guessing we're around 500 4-6" fish. I have this offer out to some local folks but no one has spoken for any - yet. I imagine this will change quite soon. I don't want to overwinter them - so moving them soon is a priority. If you are in need of SMB please contact me and let me know. I have no clue what costs are involved in delivering or shipping the fish - so I'll need to check with Rex on those details depending upon your location.

FYI - I'd love to be able to pay for a few months electricity by moving these fish, but I'm not at all motivated by $ - I'm so far underwater on my reproduction projects there's no saving me now. As always, I'm primarily focused on helping others in need of achieving their dreams of establishing a SMB fishery of their own - maybe I can come fish and visit my babies someday!

Mods - I'm not a paid advertiser - so if you need to remove this I understand. Don't mean to step out of bounds.

TJ

TJ,

Did you do anything special to feed train them or did they automatically gravitate to the pellets?

young smallmouth usually always gravitate to pellets. as they get older the percentage decreases, but even older native smallmouths take pellets much more readily than older native largemouths.

Congratulations TJ! My offer to lend a hand is still definitely on the table. Would love to meet Rex too!

Those smallies are worth good money. So are the bullfrog tadpoles. You have permission to solicit to sell them...

I'm sure that's true but it may depend on the strain or how long they have been domesticated Nate. I say that because when I got some from Mike Robinson of Keystone years ago he told me they were a PI the A to get on pellets and sometimes wouldn't stay on them.

My pellet trained smallies have gravitated to the fatheads and small bluegills vs. the pellets. I'm hoping when they exhaust them they will get back on the pellets.

For sure! Not many producers of smallmouth. Congrats TJ.

On the other hand there is a fly in the oinment regarding the sale of frogs. There's a fungus killing off frogs across the country, and APHIS is proposing required testing (expensive) for a those that sell frogs or have frogs mixed in with the fish they sell:


USFWS Petition to Halt Spread of

Amphibian Disease, Chytrid Fungus



The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service recently announced it has posted a notice in the Federal Register seeking information concerning the possible designation of all live amphibians or their eggs that are infected with chytrid fungus (Batrachochytrium dendrobatidis or Bd) as “injurious wildlife” under the Lacey Act.



The fungus causes chytridiomycosis, a disease deadly to amphibians, and has been identified as a primary factor leading to the listing of a number of amphibian species as threatened or endangered. If finalized, the designation as “injurious” would require a health certification that live amphibians or their eggs are not infected with chytrid fungus prior to import or transportation across state lines.



Designation of amphibians carrying chytrid fungus as “injurious species” would have many important implications for US producers:



- The inadvertent inclusion of an amphibian, which includes tadpoles, in a load of live aquatic animals would be a violation of the Lacey Act.

- Producers of amphibians would most likely be required to obtain individual certificates of inspection for each interstate movement of amphibians.

- The regulation of chytrid fungus as an “injurious species” bypasses existing regulatory approaches and agencies that regulate the interstate movement of important diseases.



The primary goal of this proposed designation is to prevent the spread of chytrid fungus to wild populations of amphibians, however, scientific investigations* that have looked at the current distribution of chytrid have found the fungus to be widely distributed already in wild amphibians in North America including the East, the Rocky Mountains, and the Pacific Northwest.



The Notice of Inquiry was published in the Federal Register (attached) on September 17, 2010, and explains the chytrid fungus issue and asks the public to provide information on the subject. The submissions will be reviewed and a decision made whether to proceed with a proposed rule or to take no further action.



The NAA urges all members to submit comments opposing the listing of live amphibians infected with the chytrid fungus as injurious wildlife.



For more details, and to submit comments, go to http://www.regulations.gov under Docket No. FWS-R9-FHC-2009-0093. The public will have until December 16, 2010, to provide information on the subject of the petition.











* Ouellet, M et al (2005) Historical Evidence of Widespread Chytrid Infection in North American Amphibian Populations. Conservation Biology 19:1431-1441.



Muths, E. et al. (2008) Distribution and environmental limitations of an amphibian pathogen in the Rocky Mountains, USA. Biological Conservation 141:1484-1492.

Pearl, C. A. (2007) Occurrence of the Amphibian Pathogen Batrachochytrium Dendrobatidis in the Pacific Northwest. Journal of Herpetology 41(1):145-149.

Read the next PB issue to find out why TJ's fingerling SMB were first caught offshore !!

That is awesome TJ! Hopefully one of our fellow pond meisters can take advantage of this opportunity.

Ditto Omaha!

Depending on my delivery schedule to the eastern middle of the US, we may have to bust downTJ's gates and seine ourselves....you distract and I'll ram the gates!

I am a master distracter Rex! I won't let you down!

FWIW, the tadpole thing is just a proposal and is far from being another regulation.

Thanks Bob/All. Really great to hear from everyone!

Wasn't aware BF Tadpoles were a commodity. If anyone needs any I literally have thousands and they are easy to capture in my minnow traps.

I have lots of Tadpoles but I would like to know what a hundred or so of those smallies would cost to get here to zipcode 16403...as long as the money didn't go for more economic stimulus I would be interested.

Joe sent you a PM.

Cecil,

I trained my SMB the same way I trained my BG - started by feeding them hoppers. Once I got their attention, I introduced softened pellets - very few at a time. Then I graduated to AM 500 floating - now they're hitting 600 too. Not sure of the logic behind my method, but both my BG and SMB were rejecting floating pellets until I tried this. Can't recommend this process for anyone else, but it worked for me - and was a lot of fun!

TJ - you've really encapsulated the history of fish culture. Difficult to train species or strains were often started with some more palatable food item and then gradually weaned to a dry diet. The fish hatcheries of the late 1800s had grinders -- ground liver was a favorite to start a lot of the trouts onto feeding, especially when they only had the wild strains with which to work.

Of course I did...was my intent all along, of course.

Anyone else ever use BF tadpoles to feed their fish? It's a blast...if my water was gin clear like Nate's I'd take some video. Like lighting firecrackers and throwing them in the water - POW!

I bucketed probably near a thousand leopard frog tadpoles from the sitting water in my half dug pond early this summer. For the heck of it the kids and I took them home and put them in a smaller aquarium next to the larger aquarium with the bass, catfish, gar, etc. in it. I would occasionally throw in a couple small net fulls and they were nailed immediately.

I've been told that bass don't like the taste of tadpoles. Obviously, that opinion was way off.

Firecrackers and water???

TJ wouldn't let that happen at his pond Scott. Bruce's sure, but not his own.

TJ, good to hear you had a great SMB hatch.
I also get tons of tadpoles hatching in my pond but I'm not sure which fish take advantage of them, since you've had good luck feeding them to the smb next year I'll bring a bunch back here and see if the PS's in the mini pond eat them, their favorite live snack are crickets, they explode into action when I toss one in.

BIG firecrackers!!!
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For use in Bruce's ponds only

Yes that's why I used the word "proposal" in the post. However since I've been in the fish business many of these so called "proposals" become law. The comment periods are only a formality until APHIS forces it down our throats.

The VHS sham is one example.

dont tell me you guys never lit firecrackers and tossed them into the water? better yet are bottlerockets...or something bigger! just make sure it's not YOUR pond!

My neighbor behind me used to shoot them my way and I'd find them in my ponds. A couple of times they landed on my roof. Fortunately his kids are all grown up except one now, and he apparently isn't inclined to do it anymore.

I still do it!!!! Love the bottle rockets in water! Paaaluuuup

M-80's, rubberbands and stones.

Congrats TJ! Nice looking fish...

Wow, this is really tempting. I just started my forage base (FHM & GSH) this last spring and didn't plan on stocking predators until 2011. Will SMB stockers be available in the late spring or should I pull the trigger now?

SMB stockers can be very hard to find.

Meaning get 'em while you can!

Very true. They're next to impossible to locate.

Especially at the time you want them - like spring/summer.

I'm convinced. PM sent to TJ.

Thanks

jsec, I'm most likely getting Rex to deliver some fish for me, and probably some of TJ's smallies, so Rex will be in the "area."

Rex going to have any of these in the area of Central, OH on the way to Sunil's place in PA?

This looks like a whale of an opportunity!

Sunil,

That should work out well. If Rex takes the Turnpike to Somerset I'm only 15 min. from the New Stanton exit.

Thanks for the heads up.

Yes, I will have the SMB on board and possibly some CSBG as well.

The eastern run had to be delayed due to some ponds getting trout still being too warm to stock.

I will have HSB, BG, RES, Rainbow and Golden Trout (certified), large Shiners and can add most anything someone may need.

If needed, I'm sure I can find a couple places to use as central pick up points, but I will likely be going through along I-70 and north on I-75 toward Bill Cody's.

Rex,

Keep in touch once the dates firm up... I'm in Marion and right near St. Rt. 23. I've got a store located on St. Rt. 309 in Western Marion Co. which could be used as a pickup point possibly - or my house 5 miles away (with pond for something to keep busy on) while waiting... Just keep the .22 away from the PVC overflow pipe

Send me a PM with your prices if you will. I'm looking to add some things this fall and thinking about Trout and some shiners, etc...

Also - glad you are back up and feeling well.

Will do Rcooked!

.22's??? I use a .40 cal hollow point for added damage!!!

OK, so now I need some stocking advice. My pond is 3/4 acre already stocked with 5 lbs. FHM & 2 lbs. GSH back in April.

I'm thinking 40 of TJ's SMB, 2 lbs. more GSH and maybe 30 YP.

Does that sound reasonable?

jsec, the spawning has stopped. IMO the amount of forage, FH&GSH was WAY too low, especially if you stocked even a few BG with them. You may have darn little if any forage left.

Sunil or Bill Cody could advise you better than I on the SMB stocking rates, but I would suggest stocking at least another 25# of GSH with the SMB to hopefully overcome the winter predation and create a self-sustaining population next spring. Adding another 25# of FH wouldn't hurt either to help out the GSH.

You sure Rex? I transferred 8 dozen fatheads to my perch and bluegill pond a couple of years ago and by late summer had hundreds of thousands of them. Personally I've never seen perch and bluegill decimate them like bass.

Bill Lynch a big perch producer in Ohio keeps his brood yellow perch in a 1/3rd acre pond with fatheads and crayfish. He doesn't feed them pellets even though they are feed trained, as he says he gets better quality eggs from non pellet trained perch. Says they have very high condition factors.

I think jsec is on the right track. My motto is when the fish truck is here, the fish truck is here. Accordingly, I would probably put more than just 2 lbs. of GSH in just because Rex will have them, and at $9 bucks a pound or so, why not. I'd put in at least 10 lbs. And I do believe that jsec's pond is currently loaded with bait fish after his April stocking.

Regarding the YP and SMB, jsec's goals need to be stated, and then considerations for the size of each the YP and SMB stockers, to then determine optimal quantities of each.

I could be wrong on the baitfish stocking. I just can't see where a couple pounds of baitfish can produce the numbers or predator growth high stocking numbers will for the investment. But my philosophy is like Tim Allen's was....


Cecil, in a fed pond where the predators are acclimated to high protein for little effort, yes I could see that happening. In an unfed pond, I doubt 96 fatheads would last 96 seconds.

Maybe so but my bluegill and perch won't eliminate the fatheads, but once I added the smallies that all changed! Kind of wish I had a different pond for the smallies as it would be nice not to have to feed the perch and bluegills.

Cecil. my thoughts on stocking baitfish, is to always stock very heavy, and not because I sell them.

Fish such as YP, BG, PS, trout, etc, simply don't have the mouth gape to be as effective predators as CC, LMB, SMB and HSB. I could be way off on my reasoning here, but I think of baitfish as being like a flying birds. I also think of small gaped fish as being like sharpshooters with their gape akin to a rifle and large gaped fish like skeet shooters using a wide spread pattern shotgun.....it's a whole lot easier to hit a bird with a shotgun than it is with a rifle. Small gaped fish have to aim much more precisely than a wide gaped fish once the target is picked, plus heavy stocking provides a LOT more targets to choose from.

Small gaped fish have to be dead on chasing fish were large gaped fish only need to get close.

Sorry for the long winded thought....lol

Sunhill said...
"Regarding the YP and SMB, jsec's goals need to be stated, and then considerations for the size of each the YP and SMB stockers, to then determine optimal quantities of each."

My pond goals are habitat diversity, relaxation (read working around the pond) & aesthetics and occasional fishing for family and friends. Trophy fishing is not important.

Since this is a new pond there are no predators. The FHM population has exploded since the April stocking, thousands of minnows everywhere you look. I've only seen two of the shiners since stocking 120 (I screened them for undesirables). There are also hundreds of half dollar sized tadpoles that volunteered.

Hey all;

Glad to hear there are so many SMB brethren out there - terrific news. We need to unite and dominate this forum!

FYI - I have absolutely no clue if anyone has truly ordered any SMB or CSBG....I've been sending everyone to Rex as he's the one responsible for delivery. Just wanted everyone to know...I have no clue who is in or who isn't. With that in mind it might make sense to get to Rex asap and verify your orders.

I will be seining Sunday October 17th...that's all I know! Josh, tell me you're coming out to help?

I agree with you. Like I said the yellow perch and bluegills alone didn't crop down my fatheads but once I added the smallmouth...

I am there dude! I will likely have a 10-year old along with me. He's better in the water than I am so he'll probably be a better help than I will be.

Thanks Josh! Bring your waders - water's getting a tad chilly. I'll provide all the diet pepsi you can drink.

Uh oh, will have to buy me some waders. Anywhere I can get some on the cheap?

And diet soda? Haven't acquired a taste for it. Will probably just drink pond water.

Waders? I'll have wet feet for two weeks!

Plus your skinny legs will be even more shriveled from the cool water. It's 62°F here.

I would invest in a pair of Cabelas, but you can go cheap and get Hodgmans. They have performed pretty well for me over the years. I prefer stocking foot waders. I would go with light waders, not thick neoprene unless you plan on duck hunting.

I may have an extra pair for you come to think of it.

Yeah, let me know if you have an extra pair. I'd like to invest in a good pair, since I plan on putting them to good use over the years, but probably shouldn't do that right now if I can avoid it. I'll shop around though, see if I can find a deal.

Hello all;

That time of year again, I'm happy to report we managed a much stronger spawn this year. At one point a few weeks ago I'd say I had a few thousand 2-3" SMB in the reproduction pond. Today we have far fewer due to a few bruisers who can attribute their growth at the expense of their little brothers and sisters!

I will have 4-6" pellet trained CSBG and 4-6" pellet trained SMB in the next few weeks. I have some local pond owners who have ordered, yet confident I'll have plenty remaining for my Pond Boss brethren.

My one problem is fish transportation...if you can get to me in Lincoln, NE - they're yours. I am not experienced at shipping fish, and don't know how reliable it is ensuring survival, so I hesitate to attempt without someone experienced leading the way.

At any rate, let me know if I can help you out. I want my babies going to good foster ponds!

TJ

TJ, how are you catching the fish out of the pond?

Awesome! Let me know if you need a swimming buddy.

I know Sunil was looking for SMB. I am sure if he can work transport out with Rex he'd be in...

Scott I can catch around 50 CSBG/hr. I may be able to seine but it will be hard work with my slopes. Obviously a fyke net would be ideal....

Do you have any holding pens/cages?

Yes one homemade circular cage 4x4 should be able to hold plenty of BG.

Considering Sunil's fishery I'm thinking he'll need at least 9", preferably larger SMB to escape immediate predation. I don't know if he has a growout cage...that too would work. Last year he received some fish from me - they were 4-6" and I fear too small for many to survive.

Yeah, I think he is willing to take what he can get though. As we all known, SMB aren't the easy fish to source with consistency.

Cecil said he has them to 15", and Laggis said he had a good spawn this year. Laggis pellet trains his, and I think Cecil's are eating pellets too. I don't know how many Cecil has, or if he's selling them this year. I don't know if his have pedigrees (health certs), but Laggis said his do.

If I owned a pond with LMB established as the top predator I would be hesitant to stock anything less than 9" depending on the species but that's just me being extra cautious. For something fusiform like a YP I might even go longer, while BG probably arrive at the security length at 6" is my guess. I think stocking these SMB [4-6"] into a LMB pond without first growing them out in a RAS or blocking net is an unwise investment. That being said, I think the SMB could easily be grown to that 9-12" size in an RAS over the winter with steady pellet program and ready to stock the following Spring.

TJ, there's a guy in Bruning that might be interested in some CSBG.

That is great, if I only had a way up there. Maybe one of these years, it would be nice to meet a few of you guys anyway.

Thanks

TJ I would be interested in some of your CSBG. I can't be too far from you and I do have a way to transport them. Unfortunalely, I will be out of town through labor day.

TJ contacted me about providing transport again this year and during our email exchanges, Both TJ and I are happy to help out our PB brethren, but as we all know, it all comes down to economics and timing. There is a good chance I will be in TJ's area (within 250 miles) delivering juvenile and adult HSB, Golden and Rainbow Trout orders that are now flowing in and if there are enough orders for TJ's fish also, I could cover the fuel costs to make the 500 mile side trip from a Timber Hills Resort near Fort Scott, KS.

Like I said, if there is enough interest, I could get there and for those not on a run from NE to PA, I can package and ship the fish FedEx or same day air freight.

Rainman, check your PMs, Freak.

I did! Poppa Freak

Hey boys:

Seining here in next few weeks - most SMB are age 1 around 5-8". Anyone in NE or nearby interested please let me know, I'm happy to help.

Let me know what day buddy!

If I can get some water in my pond I would love some. I will be going through Lincoln on the tenth of Sept heading back from Wyoming with the guys. I would be very nervous stocking any right now with the water so low.

Let me know if you need a help TJ, I still owe you a favor.

Steve

I'm about 3 hours from you. With very few fish in my pond after my recent fish kill, I may be interested. Let me know. Thanks.

Josh and Steve thanks for your offers to help! I'm going to try and tap into Condello's high school labor pipeline for the hard core seining and ideally we can sort fish and enjoy cocktails whilst they toil.

OZ I don't want you to lose the fish you stock...how much water are we talking about here? Depending on depth, quality, and temps you may be wise to wait. Let me know.

Schmidt I'm PMing you.

Yeah TJ none of the above are good right now. I have lost over 50% of my water and now the island is so far out I actually have three seperate small ponds. If we do not get a bunch of rain soon I will be starting over. But I have tried to make my peace with that and figured If I have to start over perhaps I can avoid some of the mistakes I have made along the way.

If you truly want a SMB/YP/WE/HSB/RES fishery you could lime the pond and start over due to the BG "infestation". Lime is cheap...as long as you know you won't have any invasive species enter the BOW again [creeks, overflows, ect.] this makes sense to do this now as y our entire fishery is probably at risk anyhow. I know that sounds drastic but if I had a chance to start over I would and keep BG and BH out of my fishery.

I would never advise you to do something I wouldn't personally do. Really the only thing you're losing is some forage and BG, right? All depends on your goals - BG aren't going to ruin your fishery, but will always be a management issue I can attest to that. If you ever want to talk it over you know how to reach me.

Hey TJ I just read through this thread and it sounds like you usually have a crop of SMB to sell in the late summer. I am still getting my forage base to where it needs to be but there is a good chance that it will be set this time next year. Put me down as someone within driving distance of PA who is interested!

Copy that...maybe Rex will resurface and be an solution for us. Where is he these days, anyhow?