Hi All,
Not being a fisheries biologist, I could use a little help here. I have family that has a 7 acre, spring fed lake in the St. George Utah area. They recently stocked it with 1500 rainbow trout. Realizing the downsides of a monoculture I suggested that he stock it with other species as well. Can anyone give me some recommendations on types of fish that would enhance the overall fishery and ecosystem?
My first choice would be Tiger Trout, then Splakes. Get some chubs in there for forage. Have some nice hybrids available in Utah. You can also consider diploids, and sterile. But I'd try Tiger, Splake and Chubs to go with existing Rainbows.
Thanks pond frog,
What part of NorCal are you in? Can you recommend stocking rates?
Outside Sacramento.
Stocking rates depends upon customers intent. Those Tigers are Lake dominators, but sterile. Brown Brook hybrid. They say one of the best fighters, chub killers. Rainbows already there eat varied diet, bug, grubs, smaller fishes. May or may not be able to reproduce in there. Depends on inflows. Are the rainbows anything special? Sterile? Steelies? Diploid? The Splakes would be perfect, for ongoing fishery. I'd load them up for #1 species. Lake Brook hybrid. But they can reproduce. They have a lot of behavior from the Lake side, and will school. And reproduce in a lake, a very good thing. Also varied diet. The Tigers you just catch out slowly, becoming very big in Utah for chub eating. Never will overpopulate. You should end up with three compatible trout, and throw some forage chubs in, a lot at first. With that combo they won't last. They all have different diets, behavior, appearances and probably hang out in different areas. Would be a dream trout pond and easy to manage. Also all available locally in Utah.
He just said that they were rainbows that he got from a local supplier. He said they have a variety of fish to choose from. He just wanted a second opinion.
Out of curiosity (or perhaps stupidity) can you explain something to me. I always thought that triploid species of fish were the sterile ones. Isn't diploidy the standard for natural fish or most animals for that matter?
He just said that they were rainbows that he got from a local supplier. He said they have a variety of fish to choose from. He just wanted a second opinion.
Out of curiosity (or perhaps stupidity) can you explain something to me. I always thought that triploid species of fish were the sterile ones. Isn't diploidy the standard for natural fish or most animals for that matter?
The local supplier should have each of the types I mentioned, and might be better suited since he is local to suggest stocking rates. I'm thinking they went for diploid.
OK, if I screw up this explanation don't laugh too hard. Diploid in a marketing term would be fertile, opposed to sterile. In Utah they refer to them as diploid (normal), steelhead, and sterile (triploid). Just to note the differences between them. I guess you could say fertile and sterile, or diploid and triploid, but they don't.
Yes, diploid is normal, two sets of chromosomes. Triploid are usually pressurized eggs that form a third set of chromosomes, making them sterile. The most common usage here is for Grass Carp, because they cannot be shipped to many states unless they are triploid or infertile due to potential infestation. With trout when you triploid them they use all of the food energy to get bigger and fatter, not to reproduce. Triploid trout are very much in demand for trophy applications. 20 lb rainbows are possible.
The reason I asked is for balance. The Splakes are probably going to end up ruling the lake because they are just superior bred. They can really reproduce in a lake enviroment and will outcompete most other trout. The Tigers will just be trophies. Very good eating also. The rainbows will try to compete but will probably fall by the wayside as not being able to sustain and not big enough to rule. If you caught and released the rainbows it would help if they are diploid. They might be able to sustain. What's great about these three is you will instantly know what you caught, they look vastly different from each other. A little late now but I might have gone with triploid rainbows.
Sounds like a neat lake your family owns, any pictures? How deep is it, bottom substrate? Other than rainbows, any other fish known to be in it already?
Is your family planning on feeding these fish? If so, how many feeders are they planning on running and how much feed do they plan to dispense? I ask this as this can make a substantial difference in how one manages a trout pond or small lake in the case of your family... 7 acres is a good sized body of water and to make sure all the trout in the lake got fed via pellet, you'd probably need at least 3-4 feeders if not more slinging out a substantial amount of feed.
If they don't plan on feeding or only feeding for viewing pleasure say at one dock area, rather than for management purposes management will need to be different. They will be looking at a mostly natural diet for the trout. First this means a much lower stocking rate... Second, many studies have shown that trout, especially rainbows do better in the absence of cyprinids that people often stock as forage. One species the
Utah chub, which is very common in much of the Rocky Mountain area is a major problem to trout populations for this very reason... The cyprinids compete with the trout for invertebrates and zooplankton that make up a large portion of a rainbow trout's diet and even splake and tiger trout, particularly smaller ones. Even larger rainbow trout feed heavily on rather small invertebrates, particularly in a pond or lake. Splakes and tiger trout are more piscavorous, but even they have a large percentage of their diet being invertebrates. I would do everything possible to keep chubs or other cyprinids out of my pond or small lake. In bigger waters, cyprinids may play more of a role but in smaller waters they just are too much competition with the trout. If you absolutely can't stand not stocking some sort of forage fish into the lake, I would recommend the
redside shiner. Unlike the Utah chub which can grow over a foot long, it maxes out at a much smaller size and therefore stays within the range that trout can feed on. It also competes less for food and space with trout... Redside shiners also spawn readily in ponds which is an important attribute for a forage species.
The odds of any trout species naturally reproducing in a 7 acre lake is iffy. With it being spring fed, it does raise the odds but only for some species. Tiger trout are sterile as has been said and splake although not sterile have only been documented to have spawned outside a hatchery environment just a few times with few of the young surviving... If a minor miracle were to happen, for splake to spawn, they'd need clean gravel with upwelling through it. The odds of those conditions is pretty low in a 7 acre lake. For this reason I highly doubt any splake would reproduce in your family's lake. If they did, you'd want to notify a fisheries biologists in Utah as they would love to know the secret!
The only trout I would guess would have a chance are the rainbows if they were able to run up the spring, if it was in the form of a small feeder creek. But with as piscavorous as the splake and tigers are, any baby rainbows would be easy pickings. Throw in the competition those young rainbows would receive from any forage fish stocked and their growth rates would be very slow. Kokanee salmon may be an option and they may be able to pull off a spawn in a 7 acre lake, but again it would depend greatly on several factors.
If it was my pond, I think I would go heavy on the rainbows as has already been done and add a small percentage of other trout as bonus fish. Say 10-20% of the total fish numbers as fish other than rainbow trout. The bulk of your fishery should be rainbows though. If it was my lake, I'd strongly consider some golden color morph rainbows, cutthroats and perhaps a handful of tiger trout and/or splake. Brown trout could be an option but are often very smart and hard to catch. The more piscavorous trout like tigers, browns and splakes should be given more consideration if cyprinids naturally make it into the lake. This would be to help control their numbers which the less piscavorous trout may struggle to do. This is especially important if Utah chubs find a way into your family's lake. Kokanee salmon may also be an interesting option if the lake maintains a cool enough temperature and the lake does not contain any cyprinids. Kokanee are even less adapted to competition with cyprinids as their diet is exclusively made up of zooplankton and small invertebrates. Kokanee are some fine eating fish!
As a side note, I would not mix non trout species in the lake. Trout usually struggle to compete with bass, sunfishes etc. I would keep the lake as an exclusively trout lake.
Most animals are diploid and produce monoploid gametes. Triploidy can be caused by several methods , pressure , heat/temp or chemical IIRC.
There is a chance nothing is going to reproduce in this lake. Especially if it has no feeder streams coming in. I'd plant it with all three species, and the smallest chubs I could get and feed, feed, feed. Then I would catch and eat most everything. The chubs are not going to compete with anything because the trout will eat most, and not reproduce anyway. If some chubs make it until breeding all the better for the next time you plant, they will already be there. Some say Splake can reproduce in this lake, the way Lakers do in Lakes. Will they? But that is what I would do. I'm planting good sized trout and dink chubs.
Most important, what the clients want, and what the local hatchery guys have at the current time and what they suggest.
I'd make it a catch and eat, try to grow some 10+ trophys and replant it a few years down the road. But that is me.
http://www.keskoranch.com/fish.htmlUtah chubs, native, licensed by UDWR.
http://coldspringstroutfarm.com/pond_stocking.htmTigers, Browns, Splakes
Sorry, no Kokanee on the UDWR, I'd never put those fragile fish in anyway. They might even have native chubs in the lake already. And forget all the exotic species, special rainbow trout. Going to cost you and arm and a leg even if you could get them. Deal locally with approved hatcheries. You have to deal with hatcheries approved by the UDWR. For out of state I think you need a certificate and also approved by them. The troutlodge in Wash fits that bill and they have thier triploid, 3N or sterile rainbows, but also steelies.
http://www.troutlodge.com/index.cfm?pageID=4212FDFA-3048-7A03-39A58E291D56192A
Utah certainly is one of the strictest states I have seen in their regulations for what can be stocked and how to source those fish. It's a shame Utah doesn't have Kokanee on their approved list. The state stocks them in several of their public fishing lakes. The reason I would want them in my pond si they taste great. They may be more delicate than trout, but I like the way they taste.
I am still trying to understand why you would want to stock Utah chubs? Particularly when even the Utah DWS states they compete with game fish for food and space and can reach 16" in size, far larger than all but a world record rainbow trout or splake could eat. Trout, particularly rainbow trout can do quite well in the absence of any forage fish. They feed on aquatic insects and their many different larval forms along with other invertebrates found in a pond or lake.
http://wildlife.utah.gov/fishing/fish_ponds.php Your family should be able to find out most information they need from this link. Lot's of great information related directly to Utah there. Each state is very unique in their laws and regulations. We must remember that...
It's best to get the trout off of pellets. The Utah chub is the native forage fish. By the time the trout are 12" 90% of thier diet and 95% of thier diet weight is other fishes if present Everyone of those species can eat another fish 1/3 of it's own body length. The chub will not compete with the trouts diet unless they start eating thier own. The big chub can't eat planter trout, ever. The planter trout will eat chub all day long. All of them are late age carnivores. They switch up and eat crawdads, birds, mammals, anything they can.
I would always want Utah chubs in my pond if I was in Utah. That is the natural food chain fish. That is the trout's number #1 preferred forage fish. I would hope to get some breeding adults the trout could not eat as that would supply a full time forage in my little lake.
Most of the time hatcheries supply 9-10 inchers. Sometimes 12. By that time, they are after bigger prey, and are easy to switch off of pellets to natural diet. Those late releasers and trophies can struggle, as they have been pelletized. If I'm creating a food chain to bulk up my trophy trout with natural food, the Utah Chub is it.
Why is it best to get hatchery bought trout off of pellets? In a private lake setting such is this case, pellets are the easiest way to grow trout to good sizes and raises the number of trout one can have in their lake...
So you are saying 90% of a 12" rainbow trout's diet in a 7 acre lake would be other fish? Even with Utah chubs being present I would be very surprised if that was the case. Even for splake or tiger trout, I would be shocked if 90% of their diet was fish.
Rainbow trout feed heavily on the larval forms of insects, such as caddis, Chironomids, stone flies among others... Utah chubs also feed on these limited food sources. You have to consider the fact that it's going to take 5 pounds of insect larvae to make 1 pound of Utah chub. So why waste 5 pounds of insect larvae on making 1 pound of Utah chub when you can simply skip the Utah chub and let those 5 pounds of insect larvae go directly to making more trout biomass. Rainbow trout do not need forage fish... That is my point. By adding Utah chubs, you are taking away from the total biomass in rainbow trout...
Now splake and tiger trout may have more needs for forage fish, but even they can do just fine feeding on invertebreates, larval insects included along with crayfish and shrimps.
I would agree if it's not a problem, keep feeding the trout pellets so they can attain maximum size in the shortest time.
They will definitely take advantage of most forage available and pellets are cheap insurance. The trout in my pond have gsh, ps, frogs, tadpoles and tons of dragonfly nymph's judging from all the nymph exuvia stuck to the cattail stalks, but they still take some pellets.
I don't have any experience with splake, but the Tiger trout will be more aggresive than either BRKT or RBT to take bait or lure when your fishing, definitely get tigers.
Thanks for all the great info. I guess I misunderstood Pond Frogs original comment about diploidy. I thought that he was saying the diploids were the sterile ones.
Anyways he says that the fish feed heavily on airborne insects and he does not pellet feed because it is remote. Sadly enough, I have never been to the lake so I don't have photos. I have encouraged him to join the forum. Now I'll let him know that we're talking about his lake and that maybe that will get him to join.
Would there be a downside to simply keeping it a Rainbow only lake? I'm usually a proponent of biodiversity but it seems like in this case it may be best to just leave it alone and let nature take its course. Ahhh...the definition of sustainability.
I don't like the ongoing expense of pellets. And to be honest, trout have such a subtle flavor pellet fed trout just don't taste like naturally fed trout. I'd get the chubs, let them eat up the plant and zooplankton and convert that to trout food. If you could I'd put some diversity in there, some crawdads, and whatever else they let you do in Utah. I'm not a big fan of pellets to begin with, unless they are feeding forage like bg or tilipia. I'd rather establish a natural food chain and augment with pellets but that's it. Myself personally, I have never used pellets, and probably won't, just not my deal.
I don't think there will be enough food for the trout without doing something. And even worse how will they grow out when the food runs out, which it will. You either have to establish and ongoing food chain with forage or supplement with pellets. What did the guy that sold then the trout say?
PF I have to disagree with you again, I eat BRKT from the stream on my property, and from my pond which eat natural food and pellets and cannot tell the difference.
Two years ago I had a friend come up and he heard that pellet fed trout weren't as good, he's a big trout fisherman so we got some from the stream, and some from the pond, he couldn't tell the difference.
Maybe trout with nothing other to eat than pellets might taste different, but if they have a diversity of forage they seem to taste just as good as wild trout.
A food chain can be present without chubs... There are numerous aquatic insects, invertebrates of many kinds(scuds, shrimp, crayfish), terrestrial insects that fall into a lake, etc, etc, etc...
I do not see anything bad about a rainbow only pond. Honestly, in the situation your family is in, I think it maybe the best option...
First it's your going to need 4 full time pellet feeders in there, tossing in pounds and pounds of food daily, now its insects will be fine. You have no idea if crawdads are even present, for that matter, none of us know anything at this point. As soon as he said we are not using pellets that changed everything?
I have only fished and eaten kokanee, trout, steelhead and salmon for 40 years now. Extensively. We have a very large, or had until the Stanford lawsuit, planting program for hatchery trout. They are pellet fed, except for maybe a lone bug that falls in thier concrete lined troughs. They are planted everywhere. You pay to play, hook them with any color power bait and they almost rollover and die from the shock. They do not fight at all, and taste like pellets. This much I know. To the point I refused to fish for them any longer. Some of the lakes even have thier own hatcheries like Lake Amador. The trout are just substandard. They either get caught in three days, starve and float up or become LMB food. They just are not equipped to handle the competition for food when the pellets are instantly cutoff.
The bigger the trout, the longer it has been fed pellets the stupider it is. and once they get over 12 inches, they want bigger prey including fish. They even have studies in Utah of trout populations suffering badly when native minnows were displaced by spined fish. And what to they plant to eat the Chubs? Good old trout. The State of Utah, they should know what eats what.
The reason I said should have got triploids is they don't waste what little food they get trying to reproduce in a Lake that they will not be able to. Without forage fish the food chain is broke. It's a trout pond with no pellets. If you think these fish are going to add bulk and grow out on a diet of whatever might be present that is merely wishful thinking.
Again, thanks for the comments. At this point I think I'll just recommend keeping it a Rainbow only pond without supplemental feeding and let the chips fall as they may.
In terms of fish flavor I have an interesting anecdote. Although I have never eaten pellet fed trout, I have eaten quite a bit of trout. I have another family member who lives on a small lake (really it's a very slow moving river) just below the dam that drains Tuloch lake in Jamestown, CA. This is the beginning of the Stanislaus River and one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. Anyways, when I fish there in the summer, the water is not flowing over the dam the trout are very difficult to catch. When you cut them open they are filled with snails and other bottom dwelling invertebrates. Unfortunately they taste like dirt...literally. However, in the winter and spring when the water is flowing over the dam, the fish are much easier to catch, much livelier, bigger (most in the 3-5 lb. range, some bigger), and when you cut them open they are filled with shad. These fish taste excellent, almost like crab. This experience tells me that there is some effect on flavor based on foraging.
Rich, good luck with the family pond, it sounds like a great place.
Maybe the best thing to do is just try minor changes to see what works for that pond depending on the time and money your family wants to put into it.
One last point, even hatchery trout are not totally stupid when it comes to eating to survive, as has been stated before, "it all depends". Each time I have stocked hatchery trout they will feed heavily on pellets for a few days then taper off to lighter feeding, even dumb hatchery trout seem to prefer natural food but still take pellets, and my trout average growth between 1" to 1 1/2" per month. The pellets are providing an additional back-up to natural forage.
If your family wants to go with a natural only pond then you have lots of options mentioned on this topic.
Trout with such a delicate flavor can be overwhelmed by what they eat. In fact, a hatchery trouts flesh can even smell like pellets. And yes, they are ignorant as dirt because they have never been in a natural setting. No, a farm does not count. The only food from egg on in thier entire lives they know is pellets. So much so they frenzy when the pellets hit the water, they even start to boil when they hear the feeders turned on. That is what they are conditioned for. They are survivors, probably moreso than any other trout/char species. But when you take them off that forage fish diet they scrounge. When you take them off pellets they have to learn, what do I eat? And no, they do not prefer natural food over pellets. You throw a load of pellets out there, that is an easy meal they know. And they will continue to feed that easy way until they are 20 pounds. Why chase prey when you can just come to the surface and inhale? An older trout won't even chase a minnow. You can catch them on power bait because it smells like pellets. You won't get a natural trout to even look at power bait. Nor a holdover.
I'd put chubs in there. I put forage fish in every pond I manage. I'll make cover for the forage fish. I'll feed the forage fish. I also will put in bullfrogs, crawdads, and cover for invertebrates. If I'm eating these trout I want them fed with fish. It does not matter if they get to be trophy size, but they better taste good. Bass get huge eating tilipia, bg even trout that are pellet fed. Big carnivore fish eat little fish. Been that way for millions of years.
I've fly fished for trout all over Colorado and have also eaten pellet fed trout (from a non commercial pond), don't think I would ever pass a taste test. Maybe a bit "Wilder" but not sure I could nail it down blind folded. My palate could definitely pick out store bought farm raised rainbows with a blind fold on
PF, I can see we're never gonna agree on the trout pellet issue, that's ok everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
I am stating a fact from my own experience and it doesn't really matter to me who believes it, BUT when I put hatchery trout in my pond and feed them the same feed they had at the hatchery they soon loose most of their interest in the pellets cause I have plenty of natural forage in the pond, and they grow fast on that with a minimum of pellets. Pellets only become a back-up depending on availability of natural forage.
THAT'S A FACT!!!
Again, thanks for the comments. At this point I think I'll just recommend keeping it a Rainbow only pond without supplemental feeding and let the chips fall as they may.
In terms of fish flavor I have an interesting anecdote. Although I have never eaten pellet fed trout, I have eaten quite a bit of trout. I have another family member who lives on a small lake (really it's a very slow moving river) just below the dam that drains Tuloch lake in Jamestown, CA. This is the beginning of the Stanislaus River and one of the most beautiful places I've ever been. Anyways, when I fish there in the summer, the water is not flowing over the dam the trout are very difficult to catch. When you cut them open they are filled with snails and other bottom dwelling invertebrates. Unfortunately they taste like dirt...literally. However, in the winter and spring when the water is flowing over the dam, the fish are much easier to catch, much livelier, bigger (most in the 3-5 lb. range, some bigger), and when you cut them open they are filled with shad. These fish taste excellent, almost like crab. This experience tells me that there is some effect on flavor based on foraging.
I have the same experience, I'll ad a noticeable change in collor of the flesh do to the same reasons.
To compensate for the mud/dirt/soil taste I throw the trout in a box in a creek and let them starv for 5-7 days, before eating them.
The taste/flavor gets back to "normal" but it dosen't help on the collor.
As for farmd trout and salomon, I think they can be to fat in the flesh(over fed), and every so often have a odd/different odoor.
PF, I can see we're never gonna agree on the trout pellet issue, that's ok everyone's entitled to their own opinion.
I am stating a fact from my own experience and it doesn't really matter to me who believes it, BUT when I put hatchery trout in my pond and feed them the same feed they had at the hatchery they soon loose most of their interest in the pellets cause I have plenty of natural forage in the pond, and they grow fast on that with a minimum of pellets. Pellets only become a back-up depending on availability of natural forage.
THAT'S A FACT!!!
You are a nice guy, like a brother to me, as with everyone else on the forum. If you say it is a fact I am sure it is. I believe you even if it does not matter. Have a great evening!!!
Agreed, we all have valuable experiences to pass on, since I'm not trained in pond or fish culture I try to learn as much as I can from this valuable forum, and hope to contribute in some small way.
PF I enjoy interacting with you and other pond bossers even though some of the moderators keep a close eye on me.
Thanks and you add plenty here AP. It takes all kinds just to keep things rolling. Just don't let Cecil get you in trouble.
--
Speaking of Cecil, did he get spanked lately? He's been awfully quiet......
Enough spankings and you get conditioned...
Every spring I stock around 100 trout in the creek behind our hunting cabin in March. They never see a pellet again in their life... By June when I catch them and gut them, the items I find in their stomachs are incredibly diverse... Everything from pebbles and hemlock cones that look like pellets to bluntnose minnows, crayfish and a mix of many assorted aquatic insect nymphs. I even found a 6" white sucker in the stomach of a 18" brown trout last spring!
This spring I may think about putting a feeder on the bank of the creek and feeding pellets for the first time ever... My only reservation about this idea is all the trespassers who as of now have no clue we stock trout will get a strong hint by seeing a feeder and 50 trout hanging out around it!
This spring I may think about putting a feeder on the bank of the creek and feeding pellets for the first time ever... My only reservation about this idea is all the trespassers who as of now have no clue we stock trout will get a strong hint by seeing a feeder and 50 trout hanging out around it!
Have you thought about putting it in a tree?
Or you could build a tiny shed around it and have a hose sticking out of the side, to make it look like a pump or something. Maybe put a "WARNING: 10,000 VOLTS" signs on the outside to confuse any trespassers.
If I decide to feed, I'll come up with something creative... Still not set on the idea of feeding.
Speaking of Cecil, did he get spanked lately? He's been awfully quiet......
Lord give me strength.
Not gonna do it.
Not gonna go there.
Fingers are twitching at the keyboard.
Mind is reeling with the possible responses.
Dark side is calling to me.
Whew, that was a close call.
Speaking of Cecil, did he get spanked lately? He's been awfully quiet......
I knew I could count on you guys!
I think that this thread is interesting, but for a recreational pond, I think that philosophy rather than logic rules. I know that feeding and aeration will produce more bigger fish in my pond, but I like the idea that a "natural" food web develops. I enjoy seeing how the ecology develops. I also like to catch less domestic fish, although in reality, they are genetically hatchery fish. I throw everything back, but let my neighbor take as many BG as possible. From a logic standpoint, when insects and other invertibrates are present, it is more efficient to have your preferred species feed directly on them, because it is inefficient to have them pass through another species (great loss of calories). However, in my climate, perhaps forage fish provide a sink for calories during cold periods (or perhaps not). Non-commercial ponds are for entertainment, so manage them in a manner that entertains you. Not to say that information is a bad thing, but as others have said, it depends on what YOU want.
Adironack - Where did you get this sign? I love it!
Thanks - Actually I was looking for signs to post on the property line, but we could always make some.
