Has anyone had any luck stocking SMB in Texas? Here in Central Texas I know Lake Travis has a healthy population and one of the creeks here have them. I caught one out of the creek that went a little over 4lbs once. I wonder if SMB would do well in a pond? How large and how deep would it need to be? How far South could you stock them?

Others will chime in, I think they do fine, they just will not spawn

After that article in Pond Boss, I am wondering how well they would do for me. I might one day give it a whirl.
Did you see I am from Texas?

Brian,

What did the article say?

Brandon -- our TX SMB conversations often come back to the fact that the smallies do well in Lake Meredith -- a little cooler than the heart of TX? Southern pondmeisters commonly report problems with reproduction or at least survival to adulthood for smallmouth bass.

Brandon, IMO temperature will not be an issue. I have SMB healthy and reproducing in Phoenix, Arizona. My main concern would be their forage (they need other than BG only, unless you get the SMB ahead of the BG in size-tricky), habitat (rocks needed to spawn, music and candles optional), and competition (LMB will outcompete unless you plan for it). Water quality is more of an issue than temperature, but mine survive, eat, and spawn with water temps in the mid-high 90's and months of air temp above 110. I had 20 adults in a .15 acre pond - and countless YOY. Aeration would be critical IMO.

Do you have a pond now? If you're trying to put into a current fishery it will be very different than if you're starting from scratch. Both can be done - and I think more people in TX could have great SMB fisheries if they planned for it.

Aaron

We have a new lake in S.Texas that hasn't begun to fill. The area around the damn will be approx 35-40 ft and should flood approx 75-100 acres. We haven't begun to stock yet. Being in S.Texas, heat maybe an issue but with the depth it may be possible.

The other place is on a piece of property my wife and I are looking at purchasing. It currently doesn't have a pond but the spring fed draw makes it ideal to damn up. The creek bed is rock and gravel with several large bolders throughout the bottom. I believe that the depth could range from 12-15 ft at the damn and have some pockets closer to 20ft. The Spring should provide an ample flow of cold water into the pond. I got to thinking that it maybe nice to create a SMB fishery vs. LMB. Ofcourse all of this depends on getting the property bought.

Brandon, IMO SMB would work well in both places. My pond is 6' deep - in the middle of Arizona. It can't get any hotter unless it's a 4' pond in Death Valley, CA.

IMO the cool water issue has as much to do with the fact that LMB don't do well in cool water, thus allowing SMB to thrive, as it does that SMB like cool water. They like warm water just fine - at least mine do. I'm entirely confident you can have a great SMB pond in Texas.

If you want a great mixed SMB/LMB pond it will provide more challenges, but in a 100 acre lake it should be absolutely no problem. In smaller LMB/BG ponds the SMB just get squished out on both sides. The prey gets too big, and the other predator gets too big because it eats the bigger prey. In a bigger pond, more room, more forage, and can have more diversity.

p.s. - I've got 15 adult 1-2lb SMB that have spent the last 2 years enjoying my pond, reproducing, and doing high flying acrobatics when I caught them... and they're going bye-bye tomorrow...

Follow-up question...

Where do you get SMB? And when would you stock them?

I got mine from Hartley Fish Farm in Kansas.
http://www.hartleyfishfarmsinc.com/

When? Depends on lots of things. Are you talking the 100 acre or the smaller pond? To me it would depend on goal and pond size completely. I stocked mine in a small pond, so I put adult forage in at the same time the 4-6" SMB's went in. You can't do that effectively in a 100 acre pond.

If your goals are SMB only in the small pond (or big pond), then I'd focus on getting the forage base built year one, and then stock SMB a year or so later - just like in an LMB pond. If you want mixed pond, personally I'd do SMB before LMB - and let them become adults before LMB went in. You'll have a better shot at this long term in the 100 acre than a <5 acre.

Not trying to dodge the question, but there are a lot of variables that would go into it. I'm ignoring other issues here like habitat and water quality. Forage is discussed really well on the other active post on SMB. If I understood the goals better I could give a little clearer advice. Keys are a) good forage base, but not one that will outrun and outgrow the SMB, and b) ensuring the SMB have their niche and can get established.

That's because you are a SMB Demigod

Going bye bye?!?!?!?!

Do they need a loving home? I heard of some nutcase in Lincoln, NE whose willing to knit his SMB sweaters....seriously.

AaronM - How did they get them to you? Did they ship them?

Brandon - The article that Brian referrred to was probably my article in Mar April 2009 Pond Boss mag. I discussed the myths of temperature requirements of SMB. If you don't subscribe to PBoss mag, you should begin your subscription with the Mar-Apr issue. All total there will be 4 or 5 articles about growing SMB in ponds.
From my studies it is not so much warm temperatures that hinder SMB it is the competitiveness of LMB. IMO Put SMB in a pond without LMB and they will to well even in TX. Give smallies proper spawning habitat (May-June Poss mag) with some good food items, no LMB and you will get at least occassional spawns even in TX. In smaller ponds it is LMB or other larger predators that hinder SMB more than anything else.

As Aaron mentions if you put SMB into your planned pond with the spring water and rocky structure, I think you will be well pleased with the results. For forage I would try FHM, golden shiners, crayfish, and probably since you are in TX, maybe some threadfin shad. Part 4 of my article series in PB mag will deal with best forage items and management of SMB. If the SMB do not do well enough for you you can always add LMB 5-10 yrs later. They will then take over the pond and be the dominant predator.

If you use SMB keep us informed how they do in TX. Aaron seems to have no problem with them in the heat of Arizona.

I think I am going to try SMB. Right now I have fatheads and Golden shiners. I am planning on stocking CNBG and RES next month.

Bill,

Will I be ok with BG. I am planning on seining the pond if necesarry to keep up with CNBG spawn.

Chris - HOw big is your pond? IMO seining will not be enough to adequately control the BG unless you are planning on a lot of seining. Prolific fish tend to recruit numbers of young to fill the available space. Thusthe more you remove the better the next spawn becomes. Plus since you are in TX BG spawn multiple times. Why not try this for the first 4-5yrs. Use only male CNBG. Gather your males from another pond or grow your own in cages. This way you get the best of both worlds big BG and SMB. IF yo need a reproducing panfish with the SMB use the RES. If things don't meet your goals after 5-10 yrs add the female BG and LMB if needed. Give the male BG a try I think they will work well for you & your dad with your experience and facilities.

I think seining if you remove enough fish will work, even a good size fish trap would work. Also, don't give the BG a huge head start on the smallies that you might do with the LMB. Stock the BG and smallies together or even give the smallies a slight headstart. Depending on the size fingerlings of each you stock. If you do stock the BG before the smallies, consider stocking larger SMB fingerlings than you normally would.

Bill,

The pond is .4 acres. If I seine as well as put heavy fishing pressure on the Female CNBG would that make a difference.

I disagree that SMB do well with BG even with removal of BG. One of the big problems with seining a typical PBoss fish pond is that with so much artificial structure added to ponds they cannot be readly seined - too much junk all over on the bottom. IMO The method of annually removing lots of BG will get "old" after a few years. Removing lots of BG sounds easy but doing it on a regular basis in todays busy society is not real feasable. BG can be real prolific. I have never found a small pond with good SMB and BG together.
Lets hear from pondowners who have SMB and BG. I think it rarely works well, and IMO most of SMB and BG combination potential is theory. We definately need more input and field trials with this fish combination. IMO from my experiences, I would not even try it in my pond unless it was easily drainable or easily renovated. But of course if LMB are added they will eventually solve your BG overpopulation problems.

Chirs - IMO for your small pond, using only male BG will be less work and provide more rewards than the alternative of both sex BG. Which ever way you go, keep us informed. I want you to be the first to prove me wrong and that reproducing BG with SMB will work well providing numbers of BG are managed properly.

I would really like to be able to have some BG to move to another friends stunted bass pond. I will have to make I decision pretty quick. The fish are hopefully coming next month.

Any ideas on stocking rates with only male BG?

Chris - For male only BG the carrying capacity is your limit. I see no reason with the SMB, aeration, and pellet feeding in 0.4 acre why you can't easily have 200 male BG.

Chirs, Moving smaller BG into the stunted bass pond is, IMO, not your best plan for you or that pond. Try removing bass until a better predator : prey BALANCE is achieved. Then bass will grow and BG will become more prevalent. Adjust the numbers comprising the current carrying capacity. The answer is not adding more forage fish.

Chris I have a .4 acre pond I am working on as well. I am doing to SMB, RES, male BG only route with a handful of CC and HSB later down the road. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I am not stocking the fish until next year though. This year is forage fish building only.

Chris, I'll completely echo Cody here. If you're targeting SMB, and have the choice (i.e. they're not in the pond yet) don't go mixed sex BG. Seining will be too much and won't do it well. Even catching would be HARD to keep them down enough. I've watched this for 2 years with 20 SMB - they don't like BG unless they're tiny.

I'll also FULLY agree with Cody on the male only BG pond. And I've heard that if you have tons of mixed sex BG in a .15 acre pond and have to seine and sort out the females it's a lot of work, so it might be better to start with male only BG's. Although less sporty! I think a male only BG, with a few SMB, female LMB, and a couple RES, along with GS and FH sounds like a FANTASTIC pond.

Aaron

What's your take on RES instead of BG? Not nearly as fecund - therefore not much of a threat to overpopulate? What are your impressions? Bill and Dave Willis encourage RES instead of BG for a SMB pond.

Bill & Dave are dead on with my experience. They're a little more fusiform, and not nearly as prolific. I put in about 25-30 RES in my pond and have had no recruitment. Not sure if they all get eaten, or if the BG just push them out. I'd be (am) concerned if you have mixed sex RES with male only BG - I just don't know enough of the implications of the cross other than they're beautiful fish. But if no BG, I think Bill & Dave are dead on.

I plan to find out over the next couple years if all male BG will successfully mate in a pond that has mixed sex RES. I have a feeling they will under a limited basis.

Thanks Aaron...

Thanks Aaron and Bill. Great info. I never even thought about stocking SMB until I found PB.

Aaron,

The first one we will try will be the 100acre lake. Hopefully we will enough rain so we can start stocking the forage fish. Initally we will stock BG, RES, Threadfin, and FH. We won't plan on stocking any gamefish unti for 6-8 months to give the baitfish time to take hold.

Sounds like it maybe a good idea to stock the SMB 6 months before LMB?

That lake sounds awesome. Do you have stocking numbers of the forage? Obviously that's a big job (would love to see it!). I'd wait *at least* 6 months. I waited a year and it was a good idea because the SMB were adults. Remember they grow a bit slower than the LMB (mouth/prey size).

For the mixed bass pond, IMHO This is good:
Forage Day 1
SMB + 6 months from Day
LMB + 6 months from SMB

This is better:
Forage (minus BG) - Day 1
SMB + BG 6-12 months from Day 1
LMB 12 months from SMB +BG

All of that would depend on stocking ratios and sizes of stockers. If you're doing more adult forage, then time can speed up. Ewest always recommended, and I agree as I did it, stocking various year classes of forage. It speeds up reproduction and ultimately gives you a great base. 100 acres is big, and patience will pay off years down the line in building forage base and letting it grow before it gets hammered. BTW, are you going to be supplemental feeding anything in that monster?

Aaron for a lake that size would you still not recommend BG?

Depends what you want out of it. Sometimes we all start answering the specific questions before we really know what you want out of it. I could answer both ways.

So can I clarify a few things? I know it's a lot of questions, but they're important and we can give more guidance on the pros and cons of various situations.

What's the goal of the pond? Why would be your perfect situation? Plan on feeding? How much fishing pressure? Do you want SMB only as your sportfish? or SMB and LMB? or SMB and HSB? Catfish? Do you want big fish, and if so, which type? or do you want a more balanced fishery where you can catch lots of fish? Are you going to or willing to harvest fish? If you harvest, will it be for food or food & population control?

Feeding is the other main question. To feed effectively you'd need quite a few feeders, is this something you want to do?

Aaron

I think that the goal would be to create a balanced fishery focused on trophy LMB and possibly SMB. We will also want to stock some catfish for food/recreation. Their are no plans to feed fish on a large scale due to the cost. We may have a feeder on the dock for entertainment.

Fishing will be primarily friends and family. Harvest will be based on food & Population Control.

With 100 acres I think that it will be easier to manage for trophy LMB and still be able to have a nice mixture of other fish to catch.

Cool. Wasn't sure if you were going to create the most unique lake in Texas with a 100 acre smallmouth haven. (could kinda get excited thinking about a 100 acre SMB and HSB lake - but I digress!)

If you're going mixed, you should keep with BG for sure. Realize that there isn't a lot of experience with developing mixed bass lakes in Texas that we've seen on here, but like Cody, I think it's very doable especially starting from the start.

I'd think of the SMB a bonus fish, but I'd work to get them established before the LMB - and then I'd go lighter on the LMB numbers. Greg Grimes presented at the Conference last year with a modified trophy bass strategy which is 2-4x the traditional amounts of forage, and half the traditional LMB numbers - and the results have been amazing for big LMB. I'd try to go the same route with lower LMB numbers after the SMB. There should be enough forage for the SMB to do well, get a good start, and then still plenty for the LMB to take off with.

The LMB will catch up, but you'll give yourself a good shot. You've got a pretty good traditional forage base with BG, RES, FH, and the TS. The TS will be key - so make sure you can basically walk across the lake on the TS schools when your bass go in (exaggeration, but only a little). IMO with the mixed species bass I'd want a really diverse forage base - as your fish should be able to find their niche in a lake that size. I'd think about adding Golden Shiners and crawfish early on as well.

Do you have numbers on the forage you're stocking?

Aaron, I think you you pack a whole Great Lake's worth of fishing action in if you had 100 acres to work with. Condello would never leave.

Kind of scary, really.

Aaron

Working on the numbers now. Due to the size and cost of stocking we are considering stocking in stages. Over a 12 -18 month period before we add sportsfish. Especially the FH and TS. The BG and RES would be stocked toward the end. We would like for the baitfish to spawn a few times and naturally stock the lake with forage.

We have other lakes that we can fish and enjoy while we wait. The idea of creating a SMB & HSB only lake is intriguing.

Brandon stages is a great idea for a pond that size.. if you're patient you can stock it slower and get to the same results at 1/10th the cost. Why wait on the BG/RES? You could do significantly fewer sooner than waiting 12-18 months.

Aaron

My thought on waiting was to hopefully ensure that the BG won't be large enough to eat the LMB or SMB on the inital stocking.

I think BG/RES would have to be pretty big to have much chance even with small bass fingerlings. IME medium large adult BG/RES (up to 9" or so) are very successful at eating Gambusia in a target rich environment, but not nearly as efficient at eating slower but larger FHM. If the Bass fingerlings exceeded 4", I think they would be very safe.

Theo

Thanks. My goal is to get a huge jump on the forage so they will be self sustaining once the sportfish are introduced.

I talked to American Sportfish today. They are the advertiser that will ship SMB fingerling. The cost was $2 per fish at 2 inches in size with 100 fish minimum order plus shipping.

Thanks for the info Chris!

IMO 2"-3" fingerlings of LMB / SMB would be very safe in the presence of adult (7"-9") BG-RES.

My water is really muddy and will be until I clear it. Should I wait to stock the SMB until after it is cleared up. I think I remember hearing that SMB are mainly sight feeders.

I'd wait til it cleared up. I don't know of a single good SMB lake, pond or river that stays muddy for long.

Cody, in a smallish pond, wouldn't HBG or GSF provide the limited recruitment needed for Chris?

BrandonA I strongly suggest you contact Dr. Jeff Slipke with Southeastern Pond as he and the others at SEP have experience with southern SMB ponds. As a general rule the smaller the pond the quicker it gets out of balance and the easier and less expensive it is to fix. On bigger ponds (10 acres + ) it pays to do it right the first time and they tend to keep their same condition because they are more like a train - they keep going are harder to stop and change course and cost a lot to correct. I have no hesitation trying things on a small pond that I would not try on a big one because I know it will be easy to fix. A 100 acre lake magnifies those concerns. Take a look at this thread.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=16774&fpart=1


by Dave Willis ,
Ok, folks. I heard back from Dr. Jeff Slipke, who is with Southeastern Pond Management. He graciously gave me permission to post his smallmouth bass comments here on the forum.

"I do not manage any ponds that have SMB as the only predator in the pond. I have a few ponds that periodically add adult SMB as bonus fish in their LMB ponds. In these, the SMB do not recruit…no earth shattering news there. But the adults grow and thrive quite well.

However, I do have one 15-acre pond in southern West Virginia that is managed as a SMB fishery. It was stocked with bluegill and fathead minnows in Fall 2003, and golden shiners and crawfish in spring 2004. We added 350 adult SMB (8 to 14 inches) in July 2004. Things looked good until LMB got introduced by accident in Fall 2004 via a flooded creek.

Our electrofishing survey in July 2005 showed YOY recruitment of both SMB and LMB, with LMB fingerlings outnumbering the SMB fingerlings by 20 to 1 (WOW!), even though SMB adults outnumbered LMB adults by about 3 to 1. It’s sure tough for the SMB to compete. Anyway, we spent the better part of an entire day removing as many LMB as we could via electrofishing. We ended up pulling out about 40 LMB weighing a total of 29 pounds.

Our June 2006 electrofishing survey showed a 3:1 ratio of LMB:SMB fingerlings, so the LMB removal must have worked somewhat. We are scheduled to go up there in two weeks to remove LMB. We’re going early this year to remove LMB before they get a chance to spawn. I’ll keep you posted.

There are a couple reasons we don’t have more folks go with SMB as the predator species in this area:

-Fingerling SMB are not readily and reliably available.
-The fear of getting LMB introduced and messing the whole thing up.

I wish more of my customers would experiment with them, because I really believe they would do well. My gut feeling is that recruitment would not be a problem if we could keep those darn green fish out of the system."

ewest

Thanks for the link.

I guess the SMB is not as prolific as the LMB. I don't have a problem having both. I love catching big ol bass. In the 100 acre lake when full it will flood approx 50 acres of mesquite/brush. I would think that the LMB will spend the majority of their time in this area habitat and the SMB will spend most of the time in the deeper water by the damn. I may be wrong in my assumption though.

Is the green fish he is referring to GSF or LMB, or something else?

I was going thru my night stand and found a stack of pond boss magazines that my wife consolidated in the drawer. I think its the March/April issue where they hit off of your last statement.

I like you believed that it was the SMB's niche to be a deep, cool water predator but in that article it suggests the opposite. They say that the main reason SMB end up in the deeper waters is because the more aggressive fish such as LMB push them off of the prime hunting grounds similar to how bullies sit where they want even if there is a skinny little guy sitting in that seat. Eventually that bully will get what he wants. It appears that there will be a few more installments on SMB in upcoming issues so if you don't subscribe I'd recommend you do. That article has me leaning towards setting up a SMB pond when I get the ball rolling. I can get decent largemouth at almost any lake/pond in my county but to land a fat smallmouth off a top water lure, that just has my arm reading to set the hook.

But of course in a 100 acre pond they will have plenty of places to choose from.

RB

I think even in a 100 acre lake, the LMB will dominate the SMB and there will be little to no recruitment of SMB particularly in a Texas environment. Even lakes of 200, 1000 or more acres, LMB seem to dominate the fishery most of the time. Every now and again you do find a lake where the smallie dominates though, but they always seem to be fed by a creek that has a healthy smallie population to begin with, the water stays cooler and there is a cobble/bedrock bottom to much of the lake.

Thats very true. Here in Washington there are two lakes about 1/8 of a mile apart. One is creek fed and super deep with strong runs of cutthroat trout and a HUGE perch population and you can get some nice smallies out of there, but oddly enough you'd be hard pressed to catch a largemouth. The other lake which is mainly spring fed there are 8+lb bass in there and a very limited smallmouth population.

If my wife and I are able to buy this particular piece of property with the spring fed creek, I am really considering SMB only now. The more I think about it the more I like it. Like RB said I have several places to catch trophy LMB.

I strongly believe RB Blackshear's good review of the SMB article in PBoss magazine, probably because I researched and wrote the article. The SMB-LMB combination results in a direct competition between the two fish with LMB winning esp in small waters. The smaller the water the more LMB tend to win the game. In smaller waters there are not enough niches for the SMB to thrive thus the LMB eventually crowd out the smallies esp regarding natural recruitment. When the two are combined and when more LMB are removed or thinned, as mentioned above in the quote by Jeff Splike, the better the SMB thrive.

I challange anyone to put smallies in a small pond by themselves with a decent forage fish community and watch what happens. Smallie success is not so much about warm or cool temperatures as it is about compeyition from other fish. I've stocked smallies with out LMB numerous times with great success. The resulting size of the smallies will be dependant on the quality of the forage food base and the number of SMB competiting.

As I often suggest start with the smallies and when they don't live up to your expectations, add the LMB and they will give you a different type of bass pond. You will learn from the experiences.

How is this for info ? FYI 37C = 98.6F.

http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=91120&fpart=1



Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 109:617-625, 1980
Effects of Elevated Temperature on Growth and
Survival of Smallmouth Bass
WILLIAM B. WRENN


Considering that the minimum temperature
was 35 C on 9 days, I concluded that the
lethal limit was greater than 35 C and that it
was probably as high as 37 C. Other studies
support the second conclusions L.arimore and Duever
(1968) reported an upper lethal temperature
of 38 C for smallmouth bass fry, and, basing
their results on laboratory temperature-avoidance experiments and field observations S, tauffer
et al. reported that smallmouth bass could
tolerate 35 C. An upper incipient lethal temperature f
or smallmouth bass, as classically de -
fined (see Brungs and Jones 1977), was not
found in the literature The lethal temperature
of 35 C reported by Cherry et al. (1977) was
derived on the basis of a single death during a
7-day exposure period. This value (35 C) was
used as a reference level In the present study
because it was the highest lethal temperature
reported for juvenile or adult smallmouth bass.....
As a result of the growth and survival of
smallmouth bass in the present study , we found
that the temperature tolerance of this species
is quite broad, which is typical of a warmwater
species. According to the proposed temperature
classification for freshwater fish by Hokanson(
1977), smallmouth bass more closely fits
the category of a temperature theme: species
(including largemouth bass and carp, Cyprinus
carpio) that have an ultimate incipient lethal


The juvenile category

is qualified at this point because the fish were

age 0 at the start of the study, yet unexpectedly

reproduced within the following year. The

study was conducted in 12 temperature- controlled

outdoor channels located on the Tennessee

River in Alabama which is the southern

limit of the native range for smallmouth bass.



Bill Noted
Bill Cody
Lunker


Registered: April 18, 2002
Posts: 3924
Loc: Malinta OH
(64.31.90.50) Readers, keep in mind that the data Ewest provided above (July 11th post) are from laboratory stuides and they did not involve: 1. hooking from angling, 2. bleeding from angling, and 3. stressful excercise to exhaustion causing intense lactic acid buildup in mussle tissue. I think those factors will significantly lower the upper lethal temparature limit for SMB.
_________________________


Smallmouth Bass Reproduction in Elevated Temperature Regimes at the Species' Native Southern Limit
WILLIAM B. WRENN

Tennessee Valley Authority, Division of Air and Water Resources, Knoxville, Tennessee

Abstract.—The effects of elevated temperatures on reproduction of smallmouth bass Micropterus dolomieui were evaluated in large outdoor channels (112 m long; 0.05 hectare) on the Tennessee River in Alabama, the southern limit of the species' native range. Replicated treatments were the ambient temperature of the Tennessee River and 3, 6, and 9 C above ambient (December 1978-October 1979). Peak egg deposition was advanced about 8 days per 3 C increase over ambient but occurred at temperatures (18-22 C) within the normal range reported for spawning by this species (15-26 C). Peak spawning time ranged from March 22 in the +9 C treatment to April 16 in the ambient regime. Duration of spawning periods (11 to 19 days) in the four temperature treatments was similar to those reported for natural populations. Survival rates from egg deposition to emergence from the nest were about 90% in all treatments. A maximum weekly average temperature of 26 C during the spawning season will allow survival of smallmouth bass eggs and larvae. This study indicated that the southern limit of the original range of smallmouth bass was not determined by the influence of temperature on reproduction and that above-normal temperatures would not affect reproduction and recruitment to the extent that low temperatures affect northernmost populations.

Received April 9, 1983 Accepted March 19, 1984

DOI: 10.1577/1548-8659(1984)113<295:SBRIET>2.0.CO;2
Transactions of the American Fisheries Society 1984;113:295–303

Bill,

I came up with another plan. Tell me what you think.

Stock RES,FH and GSH this Spring.
Stock SMB this fall or Spring 2010.
Stock bluegill Fall 2010.
Stock 15 adult feed trained LMB males Fall 2011 or whenever the SMB are big enough to not get eaten.

Would that many LMB be able to control the BG?

Why male LMB rather than female ?

When I have talked to Todd he said using males won't effect future stocking decisions because they won't get as big as females.

Chris - Try it. Learn from what happens.
I'm not sure about how much assistance 15 male or female LMB will have in helping the SMB in controlling BG. There are a whole lot of "ifs", "buts", and "it all depends" with this plan. There are way too many variables that can occur to cause things to work as planned or not work as planned. One of the big variables is as the LMB grow they will tend to eat larger and larger prey (BG?). Could be pro could be con. Another big variable with the LMB is they may mostly target other prey (small SMB, lg GSH) rather than the BG you want them to eat. LMB won't read the research papers as to what they are supposed to eat.

Many pondowners tend to forget that the pond is a VERY, VERY dynamic ecosystem. That is a hard concept for many to grasp the full concept of. The more one learns about it the more complex it becomes. Even the fishery does not stay the same as when it was stocked. Add to it the continual changes in water quality, plant community, plankton community, the invertebrate community, and even subtile changes in the pond basin all contribute to and complicate the entire process. Things are always being added and substracted from the ecosystem (pond) to constantly change how things inter-react. Everything in the pond is always in a state of flux or change. Things can relatively quickly go from fairly well balanced to somewhat out of balance with just one successful or unsuccessful spawn or a plant bloom. The ability of predators being able to find prey can fairly quickly change the balance. Even water clarity often changes noticably from week to week, month to month and can affect how well fish numbers esp forage species survive. What is "balance" anyway? Balance is definately not a steady state. Balance is a relative term.

Your latest stocking plan (May 02) involves six species - FH, GSH, RES, BG, SMB, LMB(sexed). It has been often noted here and in the literature that the more species that are involved in a fishery the more complicated it becomes. This is due primarily to the specific dynamics and ethology(behavior in habitat) of each species when placed into an eco-system (here a pond). They all inter-react and are acted upon. The more species you have inter reacting the more complicated it becomes especially in terms of balance. IMO the easiest fishery to manage is one using a single species. The more species that are then added the more difficult it becomes in regards to keeping all species present in a state or conditon of balance or keeping them thriving. There are various definitions for thriving. I won't cover them here. Managing a pond does in many cases involve hands on managing to a greater or lesser extent. Knowing what to manage is truly the difficult task.

So after all that verbal throat clearing, It is a crap shoot as to how well your newest plan would do in your 0.4 ac pond. I think you may be trying to crowd too many species in to a too small of a pond for all to be a good success. They may survive, but not to the best of their potential. But for some people that degree of success is very acceptable. Anything you try will be a learning experience for you and maybe us. You are talking about only 0.4 acre of water. Not a major job (at least compared to 1-3 acres) in renovating and starting over.

I am sure that your latest stocking plan could work. Most any stocking plan or combination can work given the right amount of effort from the manager regarding additions and removals of the standing stock (fish). The main differences are in the amount of effort involved to manage and adjust the balance that developes.

Thanks Bill. Right now I have RES and 100 male BG coming.

Good stuff Bill and Chris. Discussions like this really help amatures like me.

When are you going to write a book Bill Cody?!?

Why do I feel like Jethro with a 6th grade education? I am amazed at the knowledge around here. I have learned more in the few weeks I have been on here than I did my entire life prior. You guys are good!!!

Yes, Brandon, this is an awesome place. And then you have jokers like me who have an occassional nugget of wisdom, but still feel the need to displace it with about 1000 useless posts.

Chris, Are fish coming from Todd Overton?. 100 male BG is a lot of male BG to sort and do it with 100% accuracy. Please do a couple things for us. 1. Try to be present when BG are stocked. 2. Get a photo of some of the fish (BG). 3. Measure what you think is the smallest BG and get a good 50% front end photo of it. 4. Cross your fingers the fish sorter was accurate. 5. Report back regarding any YOY you see of BG. Thanks.
I think the 100 male BG is a real good way to start out your pond. I think you will be happy with the results. Adding a few female BG later will quickly change the dynamics of the pond.

Yes I am getting them from Todd. Will do on the rest of the stuff.

I think Todd is capable of providing 100 male BG with good accuracy. I am interested in seeing what his smallest males look like, thus the photo request. In a few years if you think you need more forage fish, you will hopefully be able to get some lake chubsuckers from Todd. Chubsuckers and SMB are a very good combination. Your SMB should do real well. I am really interested in your 0.4 ac pond project. Practical fishery science in action.

If the CNBG aren't milting, I won't count them.

What I can't guarantee is what might be entering Steelman's pond from upstream/downstream......what he might receive from nature's contributing forces....

Will report positive chubsucker results asap.

I am impatiently waiting for the results!

Ok I heard something new the other day that has me wondering. My pond is in Livingston, TX approx 3 miles from the big lake. Many WT on the lake. I do not live on the property so the lead in the head method of controlling WT will only apply on weekends.
I am ready to add FH, BG, and had planned to add the F1's this fall. My fish guy recomended that I wait till spring to add the LMB or if I did stock this fall use larger fish to discourage the WT buffet. Said that the WT are not around during the spring as with the fall.......Is this BS?

Not sure about TX but in VA the WT are more of a problem in the spring than the fall...

WT? What fish is that?

Water Turkey AKA cormorant AKA pond destroyers

AKA DOA.