And I need some input. The pond is 8 feet from normal pool height with about 2 inches of clarity. I assume this would be ok to stock FHM, bluegill and redears. The ponds about 3 surface acres and will be 28 ft. deep. I don't completely understand the difference between the different types of bluegill (not sure if they're genetically engineered). Would someone care to enlighten me on this subject and give me a guesstimate of stocking numbers for these 3 species? Any help is appreciated.
congrats cm, you've come a long way. 3 acres and 28 ft depths sounds awesome.
what are yer pond goals? i'll let others chime in on stocking rates, but here's a couple pics from my puddle to help enlighten you on the different lepomis species...
Redear (RES)
normal Bluegill (BG) (not to be confused with Condello strain BG (CSBG) or Gallus strain BG (GSBG)
female
male
and the best fish you could possibly put in the pond, especially if yer goals include BIG LMB
Green Sunfish (GSF)
youngin
oldun
here's a couple pics from others of some trophy fish to help w/ yer ID skills:
a beautiful coppernose BG
a real trophy......3 lb RES
hybrid BG are a whole nother story, i would stick with pure species but again that depends on the pond goals..
some may warn you about not stocking GSF, but i know first hand, bass love em...and they wont last long w/ BG and bass around, and IMO they will help jump start any bass pond......ok, shoot it down guys
good luck cm..
Dave,
Thanks for the input. The overall goal is to raise trophy largemouth. Next spring I will stock FSB, LGB and F1 with some channel cats. But I need to get the sunfish and minnows going this fall. What about Gams? I've heard from some to stock them and others say not to. Is there any downside to GSF? Thanks for the pics.
as far as gams, its all been positive in my pond and others i've had experience with here and elsewhere. the only downside i can think of is where gams outcompete native species, but raising native species is not yer goal, so stick some in. as a small minnow type species, i believe they are good link in the food chain.
as far as GSF, again, all positive for me and the few other ponds i've had direct experience with. they provide preferred forage for the bass and add a nice diversity to the panfish species.
my take on why folks dont like them is that in neglected unbalanced ponds, GSF can stunt in large numbers if the bass population is weak, use biomass that the pondowner would rather see BG and bass use (out of prejudice of course
), and compete for food items in the same range as small bass.
in a balanced BG bass pond, they cant survive long because they dont breed as prolifically as BG, and the bass seem to prefer them as food.
thanks for listening to the ramblings of a madman, please wait for further input cm....
edit post....someone help cm w/ some stocking rates.
my shot for 3 acres would be a load of fatheads (did you put any fathead spawning structure in?), at least 2000 BG, 500 RES, and 500 GSF if you can get them. they are so rare most fish suppliers dont have them
CM,
You're smack dab in the middle of fish farm nirvana. Many suppliers just down the road in Lonoke County.
Hopefully this link works...
http://www.uaex.edu/wneal/Pond_Management/pdf/Sport-Fish-Supplier-List-2008.pdf Since your objective is a trophy LMB pond, you might want to consider additional forage to the regular FHM-BG mix. Golden Shiners and Threadfin Shad should do well in your area.
Some stock more, but I stocked 100 RES and 400 BG per acre, additionally put in 100+ adult BG 6 to 8", 20 lbs of FHM, and gave them 6 months before I introduced first predator. Many would say wait a year before predators, but I lack patience.
Bluegill are your primary forage, CNBG are native floridians, but will do very well at your place, they'll spawn 2 to 3 times per year, RES inhabit a different niche, don't spawn as often, don't produce as many babies as BG/CNBG, but they eat all the nasty snails in your pond, decreasing incidence of parasities in your trophy LMB.
Don't worry 'bout stocking GSF, they will magically appear via tornado, egrets, cranes, bird poop, migration....
Thanks for the input Pedro. We are fortunate to have a lot of fish farms around here. Let me do some calculations and I'll get back with some numbers and you guys can dissect them.
OK guys. Here is what I have so far. Let me refresh everyone's memory about the size of the pond. It will be between 2.5 and 3 surface acres, up to 28 feet deep, I plan on fertilizing, I probably will get a Lake Life Pump within 3 years. From what I gather the stocking numbers should be as follows.
October 2008: 1000 BG, 200 RES, 30 lbs. FHM, ? GAMS
May 2009: 100 LMB, 100 FSB, 100 F1, 200 CC
2012: introduce threadfin and gizzard shad, crappie
I'm unsure of the number of GAMS to stock. What do you guys think? Any help is greatly appreciated.
If you put Gams in when the water is warm enough to breed, without any predators, their live births produce an incredible amount of offspring. 100 Gams have produced what must be millions of offspring in my new pond this Summer. JHAP establish a permanent Gam population in a pond with predators using 70 stockers, half of which he estimates were eaten in the first few minutes.
JHAP establish a permanent Gam population in a pond with predators using 70 stockers, half of which he estimates were eaten in the first few minutes.
Oh sure throw me in front of the bus again. JHAP kills his fish, JHAP is a fish stocking idiot, JHAP shouldn't be trusted with live fish and probably not dead ones either.
DIED stocked 9 (nine or eleven I forgot) Gams and ended up with huge schools of Gams. We netted 70 Gams from his pond and transfered into my pond which I quickly reduced to about 35 in an incident that I will never be allowed to forget and will forever be brought up on this forum. My 35 Gams turned into LOTS and LOTS of them.
And yes bass love Gams. The love them to death.
Folks have brought up some negatives about Gams, but I haven't noticed any real problems with them. At my place they breed in early spring and create HUGE swimming schools. You see Gam schools swirling at the surface that contain thousands of Gams. Once the sunfish and LMB fry get big enough they begin to voraciously feed on the Gams and their numbers are significantly reduced. Like DIED said it seems like they are a good link in the food chain.
OK guys. Here is what I have so far. Let me refresh everyone's memory about the size of the pond. It will be between 2.5 and 3 surface acres, up to 28 feet deep, I plan on fertilizing, I probably will get a Lake Life Pump within 3 years. From what I gather the stocking numbers should be as follows.
October 2008: 1000 BG, 200 RES, 30 lbs. FHM, ? GAMS
May 2009: 100 LMB, 100 FSB, 100 F1, 200 CC
2012: introduce threadfin and gizzard shad, crappie
I'm unsure of the number of GAMS to stock. What do you guys think? Any help is greatly appreciated.
the gam advice is good, you dont need many to start a major population provided they have some shallow weedy cover. just a gut reaction here cm, but i think yer ratio of BG to bass is too low. in other words my gut says either stock more BG for that many bass, or stock fewer bass for that many BG. what does anyone else think?
In Texas the stocking rates are 1000 BG fingerlings per acre. I don't think that would change much here in Arkansas. Using the Texas plan you would be stocking at 1/3 of the recommended rate.
I would stock 300 Adult BG. Those BG would spawn in the Spring and provide your LMB all the food that they would want. I believe the recommendation is at least 40 breeding pairs per acre.
Newer stocking research for trophy LMB indicates doubling the initial BG #s to 2000 per acre (if using 2 in BG)and reducing the initial LMB #s ( I would go with 70 per acre using 2 in fish). GShad if used should be delayed until 70% of your LMB are 18 in or larger. GShad can outgrow the ability of LMB to control them. There is very interesting research on the results of TShad mixed into ponds with GShad. I would avoid that. You may be to far north for TShad to avoid winter kill ( you may loose them in 2 out of 5 years). GShiners would be a good addition and FH are good to start. I can see no benefit to CC in a trophy LMB pond as they just take up space (carrying capacity) better used for forage and LMB growth. Some Florida LMB genetics will help with size in the trophy equation (say 25%). I am using 25% Fla , 25% F-1 , and 50% northern LMB in a balanced pond. If you want a trophy pond then you may want more Fla genes. However note that Fla LMB males are disproportionately small (smaller than northern).
Thanks for the input guys. Point taken on the intial BG stocking. I will probably double the number of BG and RES. I talked with several fish suppliers today. They are trying to talk me out of stocking Florida bass and GAMS. They stated that the GAMS have no added benefit, and the Floridas won't do well. But I want the genetics to potentially have HUGE bass. Sounds like I need to stock 100 northern LMB and 100 Floridas. I also thought that CC were good because of their scavenging. You know, cleaning the pond of dead stuff, kind of like bacteria.
GShad if used should be delayed until 70% of your LMB are 18 in or larger. GShad can outgrow the ability of LMB to control them.
...
GShiners would be a good addition and FH are good to start.
GSH as initial forage will do a great job of helping your LMB reach that 18" mark (especially at lower bass stocking rates as ewest mentions), after the Fatheads get them big enough to eat adult Shiners.
You are right on the edge of the recommended range of Florida Strain LMB. I think you should at least giving them a try to see how they do. It may be best to go with a mix of all three types of LMB.
cm, are you planning on feeding? IMO that would change the stocking dynamics considerably. if not, the GAMS will be an added benefit especially for young bass and the entire spectrum of sunfish....not to mention elimination of skeeters in the weedy shallows where other species dont go.
I believe golden shiners would be a good intermittent forage between fatheads and gizzards. I might stock them in 1 to 1.5 years. I also agree that I should at least try to get the Florida bass to grow. If they don't the northerns will take over. If they do, I could potentially have some huge bass.
I haven't planned on a feeding program. To tell you the truth, I haven't researched it that much and thought that it was geared more towards feeding the predators, i.e. LMB. The fish suppliers I talked with today stated that the BG and FHM will eat the same things as the GAMS like mosquito larvae. I'm not sure if I believe them or not. What I learned today was that I need to devise a plan with the help of a lot of people that have 'been there, done that' and not lend as much weight to the people that are selling stuff.
Chris & CM there was a long term study with Fla LMB in Okla (Tulsa I think) and they did fine even where several of the ponds had ice over for 2 weeks. Another study on both types of LMB and both crosses indicated that F-1s were more cold tolerant and still grew big.
ewest, there is another study (or maybe the one your talking about) done on Boomer Lake in Stillwater, OK with Fla and Northern bass. The only reason I know is becuase thats where I go to college and frequent Boomer Lake. Boomer Lake has a heated effluent, so the study may not be of much help.
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/OAS/oas_pdf/v59/p47_50.pdf
cm you raise a good point discussed from various angles here before. feed the forage or feed the predators or feed both?
feeding the forage is probably the easiest. BG will take to pellets readily whereas you either need to buy feed trained bass or figure a way to train them yerself. for a slightly more hands off management style, i would speculate feeding the forage the more efficient route if you plan on feeding at all.
BG will most definitely feed on the mosquito larvae, but GAMS can happily thrive in water so shallow warm and weedy that not even BG fry or YOY will inhabit. if you'll have any extensive shallows/wetlands anywhere on pond, i'd recommend some gams too......cheap insurance, and a little diversity.
Not in Boomer lake as the one I am talking about was done in a series of ponds. I will try and find it.
OK, I've gotten several quotes from fish farms in the state. It looks like JM Malone in Lonoke has the best prices. Their BG are .20 and RES are .30. These are 1-3" in length. I was quoted .65 for hybrid BG at another location for .65. I'm not sure that I understand the difference between the hybrid and regular BG. Do they grown faster/bigger or something? What is it a hybrid of, BG and RES?
BG and Green Sunfish. Consensus opinion here is that they grow faster than BG for about the first year, as their bigger mouths let the eat large food items sooner than BG, and typical "top out" out around 3/4 lbs.
I DO NOT recommend stocking both BG and HBG. The BG's fecundity wipes out the HBG's chief advantage, better numbers control.
Thanks guys. I don't see any reason to go with the hybrids. Besides, I like BG and RES just the way they are. Largemouth, on the other hand, need a little Florida DNA to grow to XXXL.
I agree. For a LMB pond BG and RES are much better than HBG.
"I also thought that CC were good because of their scavenging. You know, cleaning the pond of dead stuff, kind of like bacteria."
Did anyone address this comment?
If you are going after growing large bass, the Channel Cats will detract from that goal as they eat the same things that bass eat. They really are not "bottom feeders" as many folks believe.
i agree on the cats sunil. cm, if you want cats thats great, but they will be using up biomass the bass could use. you'll have to weigh the options. cats will add alot of diversity and great table fare, but IMO will detract from a pure trophy bass objective.
Thanks for the input on the cats. I'll have to think long and hard about this issue. I'm also struggling with the decision to add black crappie 3-4 years down the road. I want fish to eat so I'm leaning towards stocking the cats and crappie. I know a lot of people say don't add crappie but damn they're good to eat. Same with the cats. I know I'll be taking enough out each year to manage the population. I'd rather not eat the bass, just catch them.
I'm not expert but from what I have read in books and on here about crappie the main reason why they are discouraged is because they are early spawners and will feed on the fry of bass, bg, etc which allows them to grow faster while denting the next generation of the fellow fish that inhabit that body of water as well as competing with bass for food. I am sure if you stock some bass in there that have some size they will control some of the population, allowing you to have large crappie. I apologize if I am mistakened but that is the jist that I have gotten from lurking on here. Hopefully the experts will chime in soon.
OK, given the new information I have revised the stocking numbers:
October 2008: 2000 BG, 600 RES, 30 lbs. FHM, ? GAMS
May 2009: 100 LMB, 50 FSB, 50 F1, 50 CC
October 2010: golden shiners
2012: introduce threadfin and gizzard shad, black crappie
What do you think? I think I will be stocking this Friday!!
Why the long wait for the Shiners?
I was going to use them as an intermittent forage between fatheads and shad. What's your opinion on this?
Good usage. Stock 'em earlier and let 'em multiply.
Will do. What do you think about next fall?
cmfulmer I think Theo means stock them before the bass even. At least that is what I am going to do im my pond. But Ill let Theo speak for himself. IIRC he has them in his ponds.
Yes put in the GShiners with the early stocking Fall 08 or at latest early spring 09 well before the LMB.
Stock them by next Spring to let them get in a 2009 spawn.
Will do. Is there anything I need to do before I stock the fish like check the pH or alkalinity? If so, is there a test kit that I can buy to do this?
When someone answers his question, can they point me to a link or tell me, what the Ideal Ph range is for a fish pond. Also the alkalinity and hardness?
Anybody have a good idea for a water test kit? Digital or strip, whichever is easier and keeping economy in mind.
CM, just reread previous post stating you were stocking tomorrow, if that is the case disregard following...
CM,
I'm probably going to get in trouble for this, but...Go getcha' some fish. You started this thread on Sep 8, isn't it driving you crazy having 20' of water in your pond and no fish. You are doing a disservice to those poor fingerlings relegated to the hatchery pond at your local fish farm.
I know PH, Alkanity, ....and all that other stuff is important, but look around you, your pond will have similar charecteristics to the ponds around you. You're in Conway, AR, unless your watershed is heavily pine forested, you'll be fine.
Probably not the reccomended approach, but when I had 2' of water in what is now a 23' spot, 5 lbs of "sacrificial" fatheads went in, they sqawned within a week, heck you have 20' of water!
You're far enough south that you will get significant growth on your bluegill this fall and winter, especially if you feed. If you can find some larger bluegill say 4 to 6", you can probably get a spawn next summer. Just my ignorant opinion, put some fish in that hole.
Disclaimer: The views of previous text are not in any way associated with scientific or reccommended fish stocking strategy, and said views are materially influenced by the desire to stand on the bank, watch fish munch on pellets, and drink bud light. Not necesarily in that order.
Pedro,
It is VERY hard to wait, especially when looking at all that empty water. I'm sure the water is fine I was just trying to learn a few things about water quality and find a tester that I can use down the road. It's easier for me to do the research and buy the right tools ahead of time before you need them, then to need them in a hurry and end up buying the wrong ones.
I stocked today. 2000 BG, 600 RES and 30 pounds of FHM. I may stock some golden shiners in a few weeks as well.
First I tempered the bags for about 10-15 minutes until the water was relatively close in temperature.
First we put in the BG.
Then the RES.
Then the FHM.
I got the fish in Lonoke, AR from JM Malone and Son. The guy was very knowledgable. We transported them in plastic bags. The FHM were placed in very large plastic bags and then placed in plastic garbage cans. There were a few fish that were DOA, but I consider that collateral damage.
Most of the dead ones were FHM but there were about 5 BG that didn't make it.
The water is looking alot better. Probably 5 inches of clarity, maybe more.
Anyway, that's what I've been doing today. The
congratulations cm!!
i was really excited the first time i stocked my pond.
dont forget its national talk like a pirate today....i hope you told yer new babies
"....ahoy mateys....enjoy yer new crib....yarrrr"
Great pics. I believe you have your RES (speckled sides) and BG (barred sides and more visible ear tabs) labels backwards.
Nothing like a fun day stocking the little rascals ! !
i thought the same thing theo. there's also a BF tadpole in with the FHMs.
wish i could stock more.....its more like i'll be drag netting dead bodies if we dont get some rain.
CM, how many bags of fish did you have in all? just wondering
Dave, I didn't know it was pirate day. . . . very nice! I also noticed the tadpole and thought to myself 'that's a strange looking little guy'.
Theo, you're right. Sorry about the confusion. I did label them backwards. I was just excited about the stocking I guess.
Jakeb, I had 2 very large bags of FHM (each bag enough to fill a 50 gallon drum), 5 smaller bags of BG and 2 smaller bags of RES.
It's been a good day!
Chad, let me know if I need to bring some alum with me when I come visit my grandkids near you! Hopefully the pond will continue to clear on it's own! You'' be seeing swarms of FH fry in a couple weeks, they love the low visibility!
The place looks great! Did the siphon activate from Ike? How close to full-pool?
Rainman,
I'll let you know about the alum. I hope the pond continues to clear. It has made a huge improvement in the last few weeks. The water is still 6-7 feet from normal pool. We didn't get as much rain from Ike as I thought we would because the pond only came up 1 foot. I was doing some tinkering around with the siphon using some old parts and a Shop Vac, but I couldn't get that to work. Vacuum cleaners just don't pull enough vacuum. I guess I'm going to have to look on Ebay for a Gast vacuum pump. I know that will work.
CM,
Congrats on the stocking. Not sure if you're planning on feeding, but me and my fish sure do enjoy it.