After reading a comment about cold smoked trout as being an exceptional way to go, I thought I would look into it since I may have a few to spare soon.

I can find plenty of sources that say fish should be cooked to 140-145 degrees in a normal recipe were you bake it or such. However when it comes to smokin', it seems like one guy will say do it for 4 hrs at 190 degrees, or another guy may say he does it for 8 to 12 hrs at 80-100 degrees. None of them that are smoking it for a long time say anything about a certain temp the fish should ever get to.

Any thoughts on this?

....Jim

Not sure about cold smoking...but a good website for grilling and smoking is Barbeque University with Steven Reichlin...might be some info there

Cold smoking should never reach temps above 100°...It can take 12+ hours easy to acheive cold smoke fish...The brine used and smoke are actually what is preserving the fish not the cooking..

Most smokers today can't even be turned down enough to acheive those temps...Kinda trick to do, but if you like smoked fish, it is the way to go...

In cold smoking, you are not cooking the fish, just saturating it with smoke flavor. 80F or so would probably be the maximum temp. Time depends on what flavor you want.

You will need to deal with parasites tho. Best way is to freeze it. Brine's and other methods won't work. I doubt a residential freezer will get low enough, but some might get to -10F, but may take a week at those temps. Some of these parasites are toxic to humans!

Just be careful when messing with cold smoking. I doubt you could red neck a true cold smoking system

Watch out for what you read on the internet about this.

I have seen some parasites in action once removed from a fillet.

I am positive I do not want one of those guys eating at my flesh.

I will stick with frying my fish, unless traditional smoking can kill the critters.

Thanks

Eeeks!!!!! I haven't come across anywhere that mentioned parasites in smoking. Do you think that smoking at a low temp and then near the end raise the temp up so the meat would get to 140+ degrees would kill parasites?

Toxic? Do you mean if they are killed off you would still be poisoned by their residue?

Regular 'hot' smoking around 190-210 will let you get across your 140 safety barrier. And you can 'cold' smoke it for some flavor then 'hot' smoke it or bake it to get it over 140.

Consider that most standard refrigerators don't actual hold the temp below 40 (the other safety barrier)--too much food in there, opening and closing of the door, cheaply made thermometer or incorrect settings. So your ground beef that is sitting in there for 2-3 days before you make hamburgers is often sitting in the 40-140 danger zone. Meat at the grocery is unlikely to sit at under 40 in the cases where people are grabbing it and putting in their cart. Do you think it sits for 6-10 hours? you bet ya! Thats why you put it to the fire to cook it.

Though, that is one reason I believe in a good fridge thermometer, grinding your own meat and having a good butcher that doesnt display all that they sell.

Oh and buy a good insta-read thermometer to check meat temp when smoking or grilling. I highly recommend a thermapen--the purple are the fastest.

If you are going to cook it, what would be the point of cold smoking? Totally different!

The parasites need to be killed before ingesting, otherwise they hook up within your system and do crazy stuff. No residue, just interaction within your system. Once they are dead, your cool!

Won't the juice from the trout flesh plug up the pipe's screen?

???

OK, got it!

No, No, No...you roll your own...no screens or pipes...

JKB is right the best way to deal with parasites in fish that will be consumed raw or rare is freezing.Generally your sushi grade and commercially available fish is blast frozen at -35 for 15 hours to kill the creepy crawly things.I used to remember all the times for different temps but the highest you can go is -5F for 7 days or so and be on the safe side of things.Now keep in mind these guidelines are the same if it is a big tuna loin or a single trout fillet.Generally not something the home freezer is capable of.

For home smoking I would recommend getting it close to 145 if it hasn't been commercially frozen.Keep in mind the health and safety folks recommend 145 degrees for 15 seconds to be safe

I just knew that when I titled this post, it would only be a matter of time......... what took you so long?

Tan is eagerly waiting for results here.

Since parasites were mentioned, I have been able to do more researching concerning it and found a lot more articles on smoking as a result of the different search criteria.

The brine has been mentioned almost always as a preparation for smoking fish....to get the fish to have a longer shelf life. Bradley's smoker website eluded to the fact that it does not have to be cured, though most folks do. Has me wondering about this part of the process.

What are the opinions of brining? If you do not brine, does the fish spoil while it is being smoked at lower temps ( below 140) over a long period of time, say 6- 8 hours? This kind of goes along with Rentlaws idea that food is often not stored at cold enough temps most of the time.

Thanks everyone for the feed back so far on this. Never tried anything like this, and I want to give it a shot somehow, someway.

i've never cold smoked. Always brined and hot smoked.

All I've used is a Luhr Jensen electric smoker. Yeah, I'm behind the times. I can't tell you how many pounds of Barracuda I've done in them.

recipe book

When we were on the boat fishing we never worried about parasites. The chef would say "Who wants to donate the next Mahi Mahi that they catch to make sushi?"

I'm a big fan of brining when smoking. Due to climate, I rarely cold smoke (I only cold smoke if the outside temp is under 50-60). But adding the water and flavor of your brine (salt, sugar, pick your seasonings) is worth it. The added water content makes the fish a little more forgiving in hot smoking and, if like other meats, should give you a longer smoke time for cold smoking allowing more smoke flavor to be absorbed.

Brining will do nothing for parasites.

I think that I will lean towards hot smoking because its the only solution for me at this time that will hopefully kill off parasites. I have never seen evidence of them in fish out of our pond, but I rather be on the safe side.

I must have always eaten hot-smoked fish in the past. Now that I know there is two different methods, I will have to pay more attention when buying it and try each.

I've watched Barbeque University on PBS, interesting show. I like cooking fish on a covered grill while adding some soaked wood chips to the coals (or put in aluminum foil) to give it that smoky flavor. Quick, easy and delicious!

Essup,saltwater and freshwater fish carry different parasites and anadromous fish like salmon can carry both.

Fish like mahi mahi and tuna carry what we called round worms in the restaurant (forget the real name) and they are visible for the most part in the flesh but not always.I used to come across these more then the average person would care to know.

Parasites in freshwater fish like trout and walleye while I know less about,I do know they are different.We where always just taught to be sure they are cooked.It's been so long now but I seem to remember that they could carry a form of tapeworm,but please don't hold me to that.

One last thing,the saltwater parasites can cause allergic reactions even when cooked dead.............Have you ever ran across anyone who eats or ate seafood,and then all of a sudden they are allergic or had a reaction.Chances are these little buggers caused it and not the actual fish.

Most people I know that cold smoke freeze for at least 30 days before then vacuum pack and flash boil for 10 minutes after packaged...

Carnivores are more apt to have parasites than omnivores or herbivorous... Just like with making jerky... Freezing/boiling kills parasites but only heat kills bacteria...

Well I played today. Wanted to try a few things out and see how they go. Everything was fine until towards the end.





I let the bear have it.

When did the end start?

This is a good blog...here is how she cold smokes fish...

http://cowgirlscountry.blogspot.com/2012/10/cold-smoking-and-canning-salmon.html


Here is the DIY smoker she built...

http://cowgirlscountry.blogspot.com/2008/01/building-cold-smoker-smokehouse.html


Wish she and I were neighbors.

I remember this gal from a homesteading website, years ago.

Early in the morning.

I smoked for a good 8 hrs. Not bad for an experiment. I was able to keep the temp between 80 - 100 degrees, with smoke, for the entire time.

I worked in Alaska for a few months, some years ago. I got to know some of the locals and discovered that everyone and their dog was cold smoking salmon, in some of the darndest looking contraptions I had ever seen. I normally don't care to eat salmon,(I think it smells and taste like rotten fish) but this stuff was delicious. Heck, the kids up there would just as soon eat a smoked salmon sandwich, rather than peanut butter and jelly.

Before I left, I procured a variety of homemade canned smoked salmon and jerky, both of which I shipped home. Over the next year or so I would occasionally retrieve a jar from the pantry, pop it open, and savor the flavor. I especially enjoyed one variety which was jalapeno flavored. It also made for a nice dip when mixed with cream cheese, chives, and crushed walnuts.

I grew up on a large farm where we did a lot of cold smoking. My father was the meat cutter/sausage maker/ham and bacon maker, etc. We smoked meat from hogs and beef, but we also did a lot of fish, mostly red horse suckers, lake trout, and steelhead.

We had about a 10 x 10 smokehouse where my dad would build a fire in a pit, in the middle of the dirt floor. Twice a day he would add wood to it, let the fire get going, then close it down so it would smolder for 12 hours. This was always done while it was cool in the springtime or late fall/early winter. Everything we smoked was either dry cured or brined, with salt, saltpeter, and sometimes sugar. By the time we smoked it, it was probably OK to eat from the curing process. The whole process was rather long.

I have graduated to a thermostatically controlled electric smoker. Yes, it hot smokes, but I really can't tell the difference anymore. I still do the brining or curing, but I know I can get the product to a safe temperature.

I'm just about to go start brining a turkey that we will smoke for mother's day dinner. It will be put into a 450 degree oven for about an hour, or until it gets to about 140-145 degrees. It will be wrapped tightly in foil. Then it will go into the smoker, with a pan of water, for about 6 hours at 235 degrees. At that point the meat will be about 180 degrees, but very tasty, juicy, and falling off the bone.

That's a nice site YJ.... She doesn't really come out and say that the fish needs to be frozen to be safe, for cold smoking. However, she canned it, so maybe that's ok? But as JKB said, if you heat it to 150+ degrees, then is it really cold smoked.

Ken,.. dry cured? I have seen this mentioned but don't know about it yet. Suppose I will have to research. Any info would be appreciated.

We still have the old farm smokehouse standing from when my dad and grandparents smoked meat. Don't have any memories of this from when I was a kid. They were all done with doing this by then. I do remember going in there and relishing the smell of times gone by......

We keep it for a garden shed now,

fish n chips, I found this site, pertaining to smoking meats. Seems informative. Here's an excerpt.
Correctly prepared cold smoked salmon never reaches a temperature above eighty degrees Fahrenheit. Technically, the fish is raw, but cured. A long bath in a highly saturated brine causes the proteins to denature…it modifies the structure of the salmon flesh. And in a sense, that's "cooking it" by way of a chemical process
Home Made Cold Smoked Salmon Is Worth The Wait

She brines the fish first...wouldn't the salt kill parasites? Her cold smoking is less than 100F...she does cheese, nuts, bacon....I'm starving!

We need to get you to a Pond Boss event. I usually bring venison pastrami. I did an article about it several years ago, and it has also helped raise more than a few dollars for the Jesse West foundation for the fisheries students at South Dakota State University. Search for "pastrami" and "catmandoo" here on the site.

Anyway, if it were beef, the difference between "corned beef" and "pastrami" is how it is cooked. Corned beef is boiled. Pastrami is hot smoked.

For me, both start with a dry cure of Morton's "TenderQuick" which includes salt, sugar, sodium nitrate, and sodium nitrite. I also add spices. The TenderQuick is very safe if used as prescribed. It provides a nice finished red color, and it will be botulism free.

I will start with several pounds of meat, in a crock or stainless steel container. I add the dry mix. I thoroughly mix it all together. I then do that twice a day, for at least a week. It is kept refrigerated during this process.

For pastrami, I then rinse it real well, cover it with fresh cracked black pepper, and put it in the smoker until it reaches the proper and safe temperature.

Ken, I moved my last package of pastrami from the freezer to the fridge tonight. It should be warmed up by tomorrow evening.

All this talk about smoking fish is going to drive me to pull out the smoker and see about removing a few Golden Trout from the pond.

I'll try some LMB too.

Something that is really delicious is smoked trout spread/dip. We make it with American Neufchâtel low fat cream cheese. We mix one package with about a cup of smoked trout, add some dill weed, horse radish, lemon juice, and either a little bit of chopped onion or crushed fresh garlic. I usually also mix in a few drops of Tabasco sauce. It should sit for several hours, but that never happens at our house. It is fantastic on crackers or bread sticks. If it doesn't have quite the smokey flavor you desire, add a few drops of liquid smoke.

We don't really have a recipe. We just mix it by eye and experience.

That's exactly what my thoughts too. I know eventually I will have to cull LMB, and if I get a lot of them, smoking might be a nice option for a change of pace. Let me know how it goes if you do it.

Thanks Ken,
I have seen that product mentioned elsewhere. Good to know that somebody I trust likes it. And yes, botulism free is big on my safety list. That's why I want to learn as much as I can before any tasting is concerned.

Gullywasher- that was one of the better sites I have found so far. Lots of good links there too besides the article. Thanks..

NO!!! I have not come across any reliable info that say brine will kill parasites in fish.

A brief summary so far, more for health concerns than anything:

Cold smoke:
- temps are around 80 degrees (but could be anywhere from 60 - 144 degrees)
- fish needs to be frozen to -10 below to kill parasites.
- preserve fish first(brine,etc) for long smoking time (6 hrs to 3 days)


Hot Smoked:
- temps in fish get to 145+ degrees at some point, (kills parasites)
- temps may start off low to allow more smoking time (aprox. 2-4 hrs)
- should still brine to preserve while smoking.


Grilled and Smoked:
- fish is cooked normally on the grill at aprox 300 degrees
- fish will get to 145+ in aprox. twenty minutes
- chips are added for a lightly smoked flavor

There is still a lot more to this than listed above said. A lot of different ways to go thru the process. I have seen Cold smoking done in cardboard boxes because of the low temps. Hot smoking is in a fireproof container. And grilling done, as we all know it, on a grill. However it looks like you can cold smoke in a grill if you know how. There are a lot of different ways to even create the smoke, from soldering irons to high priced gizmos).

I hope to still learn more....

That is a very good synopsis. I have a lot of books on butchering, meat prep, sausage making, etc. Most are pre-1975, so I am reluctant to post anything from them.

However, nearly all land grant university Extension Services have excellent downloadable food preparation and processing books and booklets. I can't put my fingers on any right now, but I've seen several that are quite extensive in dealing with your exact questions and concerns. If you just Google something like "wvu extension food preservation" you will find all kinds of stuff.

Good luck. Stay safe and healthy.

As from Ken's recommendation, here is some good info I found on smoking fish safely. Not recipes, but food safety. Well worth studying for anybody who is considering trying it sometime. It should be noted that this article says fish should be cooked at 160 degrees for 30 minutes after smoking (Hot smoked fish), which is considerably more than any other source I found so far, or previously mentioned here..

http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/cepublications/pnw238/pnw238.pdf

I had a weird dream the other morning.

I was at a social gathering. Family, friends... Great food and plenty to go around, including smoked salmon.

Well, those who gorged on the salmon, soon broke out with these zit like pustules all over. When you popped one, out squirted a little wormy like creature covered in ooze, and I mean they squirted!, different colors of ooze too! It soon turned into a competition to see who could make the biggest splotch on a wall. I had one going that produced a multicolored triple splotch, and it covered the wall like a mural. The wormy things were yellow

Let's see,
What was I doing the night before?
- Had a couple beers
- Talked about parasites
- Caught a couple sunfish in the pond
- Posted this:


- Ordered a pizza and 2 pounds of wings. Ate half the pizza and a pound of wings drenched in Bleu Cheese right before going to bed.

The wings did it!

I have crazy dreams if I eat a lot of protein type stuff right before going to bed, except on burrito night. I just wake up really early, because of need

JKB, That just sick man, just plain SICK. Glad I could help..

..I was all set to actually try this today, perhaps I will wait a few more days now.

LOL

Now that I think about it JKB has one of the best smokehouses I know of about a half hour away from him.Their beef jerky is so good I would make the 800 mile drive just for it
http://dougborns.com/about.html
Maybe we can convince him to do some research

Now you did it! There goes a paycheck on smoked deliciousness!

We use to get jerky and other smoked delights when my BIL ran his charter boat from Crosswinds Marina on White Lake. I could OD on their bacon alone There are only 2 places on the planet to get really good bacon. This is one, and the other is from a farm in Newaygo.

I was going to go check out access to White Lake next Sunday. Heard the NP were limiting in 4' of water, so wanted to check it out.

PM me your address and what flavors you want, and I'll send you a couple pounds. I'll see if they can vacuum pack it, or use the original packaging and double zip lock it.

I get a bunch of stuff from Franks in Grand Haven. They have some really good jerky, which is addictive!, same as Granddad's on M46 and Maple Island. Cold Smoked Salmon at Frank's is a bit pricy, but it sure is good!

Sorry F-n-C, but at least it wasn't a couple of Moo Rare Ribeye's. Those really crank out the crazy dreams

Safe tonight tho. Pork Tenderloin, well before bed time

I have spent many hours of research on building a Cold Smoking facility specifically for Coho (Pacific Salmon) and Steelhead. All the equipment and gub stuff. Been a while since then. Got an older puter fixed which should have everything on it. Have a bunch of Stainless Steel in storage for the smoker. Sold the freezers and a bunch of other stuff tho, which I could kick myself for doing that.

Sometimes life happens and your plans get detoured or changed.

Sounds like you were thinking "big-time" or business.

For my trial run, I just used that small grill in the pic and put an electric hotplate in contact with the area the briquette ashes would normally fall. I was surprised at how easy it was to keep a steady temp to it. Put chips in that pan. Fastened a heat thermometer thru a hole. Add lid, and sealed off all air as best I could.

I used hickory, but I may shave off some maple the next time for the hickory was a bit strong smelling. Taste-wise, don't know!!! Wasn't going to risk it, and I think I made the right decision as I have since learned a bit more.

Nutin big time, just a niche thing. If you sell a product like this, you call it a facility and meet all the regulations like HACCP and stuff. You would not believe the amount of records you have to log and keep every minute!

The smoking rig itself is quite complex. Much akin to an environmental chamber. It will also hot smoke too!

This PDF has a short, but quite accurate bit of info on Cold Smoking: Smoking

Preparation and proper equipment are the key.

Most of the info I remember came from processors and states and countries like Alaska, Canada, Norway... and of course gub entities.

None of it came from a guy who bought a new grill setup or from a blog. It was professional information.

That's why I said, be careful what you read on the internet about this. Internet is not the same as it was after Google took over. Did I ever mention that I hate Google!

Building the smoker is a bit down the road, but I have the vast majority of it, the real expensive stuff. I can get a new small commercial freezer for under a grand, which would be the only type of freezer I would buy.

BTW, you can Cold Smoke just about anything. I'm hankering for some Cold Smoked Anaheim Chilies, still crispy and diced up after, smothering a grilled burger. Yep!

Very interesting PDF there, JKB. Thank you for posting that. Its very similar in nature to the one I listed above. I think it may be from the same sources. However, I get a kick out of how the two still vary in their recommendations. This is the part that drives me crazy, not knowing what to really believe.

For example, the one you posted says freezing it to 0 degrees for 14 days for parasites.. Hmmmmmmmm.

I have checked two freezers, and both were at 10 below. I don't know what to exactly call these type of freezers. I wouldn't call them commercial, but they are the kind that people put their bulk foods in. I am not talking about the freezer that comes with the fridge. I would like to see it get down to 15 below to add a little safe cushion.....

Temp is time dependent. It said 2 weeks or longer with core temps consistent. Really cold temps get it done much quicker. Home freezers could take a good six weeks.

You get the idea tho.

Too humid when smoking and it will get really slimy.

There is quite a bit to this, so have fun and don't break out in pustules

Hey, thanks for the link! I have an old recipe that I used to follow for many years but this time I decided to try something new and dammit, it IS worth the wait! My family truly enjoyed this version of Sammy the Salmon!