I tore down a bridge that was crossing two gullies at the edge of an old dried out pond. It spans around 60 feet at the top, and around 40+ at the bottom before I added about 3 feet of topsoil in Sept of 2012. I need to fill this so I can drive across it. Attached are pics of the topsoil I've added to date. I realize this is not the right way to do this, but I'm on a very low budget. I have access to a small JD 790 24 HP PTO tractor with 4wd and a loader so I can move more dirt and/or rock to the site.

An excavation company recommended taking out the dirt and just filling it all with rock, but I hate the idea of removing what I've done. We've had a lot of rain here in central KY (south of Lexington 30 miles) and this topsoil did not wash much even without any grass on it all winter, spring and summer. It's in the middle of the woods so the trees may deflect a lot of the rainfall. I was thinking I could put a little more dirt on it to raise it some more, then put either some shade mix, moss or some agricultural lime on it to keep it from washing away, then some #2 rock, followed by dense grade or something like that for the driveway. A coworker thought that it may have a tendency to develop ruts. I also thought about putting something like landscape timbers on the sides and use deadmen to tie the tops together to contain any rock/dirt, but I don't have an easy way to compact it all, and we thought then we'd be driving on the deadmen. Sounds like a maintenance nightmare. Any ideas on direction would be appreciated.

--Steve

Steve, welcome to Pond Boss.

First, make sure there are NO rocks in the dam. It should be well packed soil with about a 50/50 ratio of clay and soil.

Looks like your culvert may be a little undersized. You should probably install some sort of brush guard on the intake side of the culvert, to prevent blockage in the event of a heavy rain. I'd cut those trees down on the right, as seen in picture #2, and make the earthen bridge as wide and high as possible to compensate for future erosion and subsidence. And be prepared to occasionally add more topping material as needed.

If this is to be a fulltime driveway for a residence, you were well advised to use something more substantial than topsoil as a base.

Here in Ontario we would be screwed if we used top soil like that. I agree the tile looks quite small. If a temp drive an only used seasons when it is dry no worries.

If it is a permanent drive for year round and you have any kind of frost I would get some rock in there. Big 4" medium recycled concrete is cheap. Sharper the rock the more it will bridge together and more top soil you can lay it on. In time it will pump into the top soil. Top dress with crusher screenings its really cheap too and sharp edges. Let it wash into the 4" for a year then top dress with larger 3/4 stone. This makes for a very very good drive with out the extra cost of filter cloth and will be tight for years.

Oh ya looking closer at the picture the tile is an extension from another that was all ready there? Just remember the sharper edges on stone the better it will stay in place. Round stone will pump and push around forever.

Cheers Don.

Hey thanks for the suggestions/feedback guys. The culvert is actually 8" and even with heavy rains there's very little flow for whatever reason - not much runoff in spite of what it looks like. It's not an extension and I just added it before I filled with what I've got. I'll look into a brush guard for it - good idea since it's in the woods and there's lots of leaves and sticks. This is our main driveway but we've got a backup barn drive we've been using. Hadn't even considered making this thing wider - sounds like a good idea for a long-term temporary deal. I know there's going to be erosion and subsidence - that's a given. I guess that's what I'm hoping for though, is that I can get away with it for a while.

DonoBBD, we do plan to use over the winter but in the last 20 years we've had only two major snow storms and it's likely to be more rainy than snowy here. There'll be some 20* mornings, but hope I can get some big rocks on there, or maybe the recycled concrete. There's a guy less than 5 miles from the house that does just that, but I'm not sure if he's got stuff as small as 4". But he's close which may mean cheap delivery. I hadn't heard about the sharp edges before, but it makes sense. The question is whether this is going to be a mess when it's wet. The nice thing about cold winters is that it's frozen, but in the later afternoon it's a soupy mess without rock on it. Sounds like that will cause the rock to just depress and then I've got a mess. How much rock do I need to dump on topsoil, or would it be better to get all that junk out of there and just go with some recycled concrete fill instead. It's going to be a lot of work to get all that out of there, but I had some bad advice on even doing that in the first place.

Brush guards can be double edged swords. If either the brush guard or culvert get clogged, you might lose the whole works. This could be from both rising and standing water.

I would look into the filter cloth and balance that cost and the cost of digging the top soil out. You can lay down the filter cloth and put the recycled concrete on top of it then top dress 12"s is lots of 4" then top dress.

The rock will keep pumping into the top soil when it is soft and wet if no filter cloth is used. No filter cloth used dig out 4 feet of the top soil and load in the crushed concrete and top dress. The biggest thing I have learned is the sharper the stone the better it will pack and hold.

Cheers Don.

I concur with Donno. Using cloth under the rock might be more expensive up front, but it's a LOT cheaper in the long run. Every 2-3 years you'll have to be adding rock without it as the rock will get pounded down into the ground. Round rock slides, and will push out from under the tires even faster.

Seven years ago we had our driveway redone. we used 17 tons of crusher run...had a bobcat to spread..after each decent layer was spread we watered it in and used a packer to pack it in. After seven years it is still packed and is great. It cost us around $500. Good luck.

What has worked for us (1/4 long driveway on a hill) crusher on the bottom, mixed washed gravel/sand/stone on top of that. 1/2 of the driveway is this layer-up, the other is all crusher of various sizes.

The gravel/sand/stone does not wash out in heavy rain, where the crusher mix does.

Crusher runs make a great base if you want to go that way. You can find it easily with a few calls to your local concrete plants.

What is this "crusher" that is referred to here?

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravel, crusher runs are basically the dense grade gravel that I've used before on top of #4 rock on the base? I don't understand how that small stuff could be used as a base, or am I missing something?

It sounds like the suggestion is filter cloth, then medium 4" recycled concrete, 12" of #4's, crusher screenings, then mixed washed gravel/sand/stone on top of that to keep it from washing? I think we could use the mixed gravel/sand/stone on the hill to keep it from washing. Some of the small #4's and dense grade that I've put on it previously has washed bad in places. Would agricultural lime be good on the top to seal it? I've heard it turns hard like asphalt when rain hits it.

Probably what you call filing in your neck of the woods, Tony. It is just the last processed gravel with dust to 3/4 in. gravel mixed in. It sets up like concrete but it is better to put a base of number 2 rock down first to stop it from sinking into the ground. It is called crush and run here.

Sounds like crusher runs would be the top dressing then and if you wet it and use a vibrator to pack it in, it's going to be perfect for this application?

Okay, now I'm with you. Around here, #53's are the common driveway mix....cheap, and full of fines and dust. It does indeed pack down hard.

There was a comment about calling a concrete plant for crusher, and that threw me. When we did concrete, stone size was important enough to specify #8 for the vast majority. We never used dust, or fines, to batch concrete.

Here's latest updates with many tons of clay/dirt fill topped with geotextile fabric. Moved everything in addition to what you can see in the initial pictures with a 4wd John Deere 790 and 419 loader that my mother in law owns. I tell you what, that little tractor is a nice work horse. It's only got 24 PTO HP, but that diesel sounds and works much bigger than it is. It feels nothing like an 8N. Plus it sips gas like a weed eater. They gave me a 2 gallon diesel tank to keep it topped off and I initially thought they must be joking. How many trips is that going to take to keep it running? But, I can run it off and on almost all day on around what feels like 3 or 4 gallons. Couldn't be more happy with it, other than the fact that it's extremely tippy on ridges and off-cambers since the front end doesn't pivot like an 8N or 601. The edges of the fill made me extremely nervous and I almost got it stuck once when the right front tire dipped down over the edge and the left rear wheel lost traction. I put the bucket down to steady it and with diff lock I was able to get out after 2 or 3 minutes or so.

The second time I made a mistake and thought it was in reverse when it was in first lunged me over the edge enough that the left rear tire was off the ground about 6 inches. I could sit on the grade blade I had on the back and pull the left tire down. Extremely dangerous! I could have maybe turned the wheel and went down the bank, but it was pretty steep and preferred not to do that. Instead, took my Ford 601 and had my son pull me out backwards while another son held the grade blade down and I had the diff lock on. About gave me a heart attack to say the least. It's nothing like my Ford 601 in terms of stability. I feel like I could just about take that 601 sideways across that ledge/bank. I used it for packing the fill on the sides and ended up getting it stuck twice on the uphill/neighbor's side of the bridge but it wasn't even close to tipping over, and I don't even have fluid in the tires. Very low center of gravity and honestly the ride quality over rough/uneven terrain is better than the 790 with the loader on it, but that's where the advantages stop.

Couldn't find anyone local with recycled concrete, so I picked up about 22 tons of 6 - 8" limestone for the steep edges and to fill the top some, and have another 21 tons of #2 rock that range from 2 - 4 inches in size. Think I'll probably top with the #53's several have talked about. I guess the channel liner will stay put on the edges? My neighbor thought I might need railroad ties to keep it front sliding on down, but I thought if we had enough of it at the bottom it should scale the sides pretty well?

I'm extremely happy with the fill effort and the way the geotextile wrapped it. In fact, it all surpassed my expectations thus far, but still need to get my neighbor to get his rubber tired skid steer out here hopefully this week.

Landscaping fabric does work well but the railroad ties are a good idea as the edges tend to turn over and slide down with driving pressure. That looks like a deep ravine to have only two small drains in it. If you have a rain like the one in Louisville yesterday you may have blow out. You did an excellent job with your tractor work. Best of luck to you from a Jackson County boy.

You may lose the trees that are closest to the road. They might live, they might die next year, they might die in 5-6 years. Trees don't like to have their roots covered with more soil than they were growing in, and they don't like to have the soil over their roots compacted. I have yet to find a reliable way to know if a tree that had soil compacted over it's roots will live or die.

If the crowns start to look thinner than the trees slightly deeper in the forest, take 'em down before they die completely. It's a lot easier to clean up the tops of the trees if the branches don't break into a million pieces when they hit the ground.

I have a soft maple in my yard that has gravel drive all around it. I have been told that but ten 16 years and still good.

I have 53 foot trucks monthly driving around this tree. We just put 90 tone of recycled asphalt around her and the rest of the drive.

Cheers Don.

...and that's why they are called "widow makers"... Nothing like falling branches when cutting down trees.

Don,

Does the pic show the recycled asphalt? If so, that looks great! How does the cost compare to other stone, like crush and run?

Ended up using the old 6"x16"x16' creosoted bridge beams I had in previously and it worked out really well. My skid steer guy felt like we'd lose a lot of the rock without something to stop it on the steep banks I created. The right side going toward the house didn't look as good as the neighbor's side because I had to supplement with a railroad tie, but I might be able to even them up. The neighbor's side is lodged between my fill and the edges of the gully on both ends so it makes a cool little 16" wide walkway next to the land bridge. With railroad ties on the sides to make a rustic guard rail, it's almost going to look like we have a stepped/tiered layout.

Re the deep ravine kenc. Yes, it's deep, but it's at the gully heading and there's surprisingly not much water at all that flows through the two 8" culverts. I've checked. Soil conservation guy felt like these two culverts should be okay after I assured him of the situation. And all this rain we've had this year didn't touch the topsoil fill with a single culvert I had in place since Sept of 2012. I checked during one heavy rain that flooded streets in the neighborhood a few months ago and maybe an inch of water was in the bottom of the culvert at the most. The only erosion with a single culvert was due to runoff down the driveway. With two culverts, it's just a non-issue.

eeshup, It sounds like there may be an issue with the tree, but no matter - I really need to get rid of it since it crowds you as you're going out the drive. I get uncomfortably close to mirrors every time I drive over it. Not much experience with large trees and felling them where I want to go. Did some stuff with my Dad, and figure I can hook two 20 foot cables and a come-a-long to it and pull on it while I'm cutting. Of course, I'll wedge it opposite the neighbor's first, then cut a little higher while cranking that come-a-long. Should work.

I'll post some updated pics once I get everything cleaned up a bit more, and put some railroad ties on the sides to make the wife happy. Any ideas on securing those? Drive some channel aluminum down as far as I can get, then put the ties inside that? --Steve

I should have heeded my own advice. Here is a picture of a culvert on my driveway, after a recent rain. Due to the blockage, the water rose high enough to overflow the drive at another spot, and cause minor erosion. Could've been worse. Now, I have to engineer some sort of brush guard.

I agree, the old Ford tractors are more stable; however, I just thought I'd ask if you were aware that the rear wheels on the JD790, and many other small utility tractors are equipped with a series of mounting lugs, spaced at different depths, which allow for multiple tread widths. You can flip and switch the wheels from side to side in order to achieve the widest width, and greatest stability. On some tractors, the front wheels also can be flipped and switched in order to achieve more tread width.

Usually, when these tractors are shipped from the factory, the wheels are installed at the narrowest position.

Your land bridge is looking good. Good luck, and stay safe.

No, didn't know that - thanks for the info. The tractor isn't mine so I unfortunately haven't gone through the operator's manual. I agree too that some sort of brush guard would be nice, but the soil conservation guy said you want to be able to get to it to clean it out. One advantage I have is that I have two culverts and very little water flow through them, so even if one is clogged, the other will handle all the water runoff without any issues. But he reiterated that I need to check them often due to their size. It would probably be ideal to have two large aluminum units, but this job was done on a budget. I also like your terracing and dead men setup above. I was thinking it would be nice to have something like that on the culverts, but since I have those huge bridge beams in place, it's not too late to do something there. I was thinking even some quickcrete around both ends might be good. I had to cut the fabric where they come out and had a little erosion there before I got the rock in place.

Not in that picture but I will try to find one. It is cheaper then "A" gravel but not as cheap as crusher screenings. This is what we call it up here. It packs really nice and looks great. In the mid summer if you give it a spray with diesel fuel it re activates and really packs!

Cheers Don.