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I need some help determining a fix for this water problem in a pond I am building. We were digging the core when we hit a under ground water channel, making it almost impossible to keep the water out to continue working. At the rate of the water coming in we are doubting that a clay core will plug the water channel. Some other excavators have said to use concrete. I am posting this to see if anyone has any input for me .
thanks
Bryan
I don't know how you would fix that. Can you find a different spot for the dam?
That is the other problem. Moving the dam is impossible.
It looks like you hit groundwater like I did when digging the pond. If this is where you want to put the dam, then you might have to revise your plans. If the guy that's digging your pond is an experineced pond builder, then I'd go with his recommendations. If not, then I'd try and do some long distance troubleshooting with Mike Otto.
Well, the recommendations of some other excavators is to dig below the water channel about 3 ft, them put clay back in the core.
Any way to put a pipe on it to redirect the flow elsewhere?
That is what we are doing now with a water pump, So we can continue to work in the core.
If I knew how, I could post a picture of the pond I built in 2004/2005 and you would not know the difference between who's photos are who's. All the way down to the rednecks in flannel shirts looking at the problem with a befuttled look on their face. Kidding man, well not really. We had 7 befuttled rednecks at my site. LOL 3 works, myself, environmental guy, and two NRCS guys. LOL Kidding, but we looked so similar to the guy in your keyway and the site is so similar looking, it is eerie.
You can search my "Holler" thread. The NRCS helped me as technical advisers. When we hit the spring, the local NRCS guy pulled in a "big whig" type of guy, over the region. What we decided was this. We decided to attempt to let the water do what it was trying to do. We piped. It was to the side of the keyway. We piped it from where we hit it, all the way outside the back of the dam. The environmental company I was using as advisors went straight up with the pipe as well. The contractors didn't like it, but he said we could pressure grout it later if we wanted. They must have hit the pipe 10 times as the dam went up. At any rate, after piping the dam through, a big rain came and it broke free more towards the middle of the dam, at the front, through a limestone fissure we did not see. So, again, we put a 4" pipe here and piped it towards the back, down the back to the middle, and out the middle of the dam. At the head NRCS guy's suggestion, so that we did not have this problem again, they put a plastic liner down, from the front of the 4" pipe to the back of the dam, from where the pipe was, directly to the back. Then, upon advice, we put a layer of gravel front to back, and put another plastic liner in. From there we started back filling with clay, coming up with the dam. So if the 4" pipe isn't enough, in flooding conditions, the sleeve carries the extra water, front to back and allows it gravel o run the original rock layer.
The dam was completed in early 2005. In Jan. 2006 we had a flood. The pond went up to over half full, and once the water table/runoff slowed, it begain leaking at a rate of 6" per day. Not knowing where it was leaking, we scraped the entire floor down to clay and put in a 1' to 2" liner. We compacted it all exept 1 small area I put fish structure, on the same side of the dam the original spring was hit. You might guess what I'm going to say. If you don't compact 1 area, it will leak there.
The drought hit, and I suspected a small leak but hoped for the best. Fast forward to May of 2009. We had a 100 year flood. The pond went up and started leaking again. As the water was rising, I was wading in the area above and in frong the orginal spring was hit, on the front of the dam, and guess what. The 65 degree water turned to 58 degree water in certain places. As the table lowered, it leaked at a rate of 6" a day until it hit it's level.
In June of 2009, I put 5 300 to 400 lb hogs into this area, fencing off maybe 1/4 acre. As the water came up, in October rains, I spotted the clear clean spring water coming out of the ground. You could almost drink it, right out of a hog slop hole. They sealed it up unto this spot, but I figured it could be better sealled with a 30,000 lb hog. So we scraped it down. We hit a verticle rock wall on this side, and saw small slits/caverns as well as sand and evidence of water removal. We dug it down, and removed any loose rocks. Then we bomagged good clay into the caverns and compacted the fire out of it.
This winter the pond went from 1 to 2.5 acres. It appeared to be leaking 1" a day, so I knew we were on the right tract. Now this leak appears 1/8 or 1/4", say 3/16" a day, so basically evaporation for a new pond.
I'm hoping for massive rains now.
My advice to you is this. You need to read my holler thread. Second, and most important, you need to determine the head pressure on that water.( I did not do this, as the thought never crossed my mind, at the time and it wouldn't have worked for me anyway, as I think I had low pressure due to the large fissure vs small amount of water.) Put a pipe in it, and seal it. Go straight up with it a few feet at a time. If it has pressure, and it would be good if it does, you can see how high it goes. If you have 20' of pipe in the air, and water is coming out, it has a lot of head/pressure on it. I would put a big pipe in it, and go straight up, and pipe it out the front of you dam, upon completion, giving the pond water. You will have to devise a way to keep it off of you during construction, maybe a few feet at a time. If no pressure, do what the NRCS people told me, try to let it do what it is wanting to do.
Good luck and I hope my experience is helpful to you. It was costly to me, and I hope it helps you out.
Robinson glad to here your problem looks to be fixed. Long time since your last post. Good to know you are still here.
ewest, thanks man. I've been like that 16 pound bass in one of your lakes. I've been lurking. LOL When your heart is broken for years, it's hard to comment much. When you see all of the success stories, and all of the failures, you care, but just don't have much to say. In other words, I'll always be a pondmeister, but I just lost interest because of what has appeared to be a colossal failure.
I had to say something to this guy. I'm probaby the only one in a karst area similar to his who has had the same exact thing happen to me. I hit the water table encased in rock right at the bottom of the cutoff trench. Like I said, our pictures could almost have been swapped.
The spring I found in the pond in May of 09 found it's way directly into the spring that was buried in the keyway or cutoff trench. I hadn't compacted well enough right there. Hopefully it has been corrected. Hopefully this guy can seal his pond in a manner that will keep it from finding his shown encased water table. Not to be negative, but I wouldn't bet the farm he can keep the pond from finding it. Nor would I bet the farm I've sealed my lower spring from finding the pond. But it looks far better than ever before. Losing 1/4" at the most on a 70 degree day on a new pond doesn't seem bad. It might have been 1/8". Much better than 6".
I've been down this road before. In a situation like this the core is probably not going to do the trick in keeping water in the pond. The best way to get the pond to hold water is a nice thick compacted clay liner over the entire inside of the pond. Odds are if there is one channel moving water underground like that there are countless other channels waiting for you to put pressure on them.
Hey PI, good to hear from you again.
I've been down this road before.
Personally, after studying your website, and seeing almost the exact same type of terrain as the OP has, if I were he, I would hire you for the day to come up to KY and consult for me. It would be worth every penny to the OP. You've been there done that, so to speak.
Thanks Dave. Maybe one of these days I'll get a full or fuller pond and get more interested. I know there's been more pondowners more persistent and long suffered than I have been, but I don't know any personally.
Maybe it's time for a change. Good things come to those who wait, so they say.
A couple of years back Bruce was nice enough to ask me to come back and post more often. My heart wasn't in it. It couldn't be.
Welcome home. And well done. You may have saved Bryan a lot of $ and much heartache.
Robinson interesting read about your trials to becoming a pond owner, especially considering the time, work, and money you've put into it. I hope the water level holds for you and keep us updated.
Been a long time, Robinson. Good to see read ya.
We built a 25 acre lake in 96 that is 25 ft deep. While digging the core trench we made sure that we dug down into solid clay for at least 3 ft. In the original channel area, there was a layer of yellow clay, but beneath it was a rock/rubble vein that was about 20 ft wide. My pics look a lot like yours, with water and the sidewalls collapsing in about as fast as the excavator could pull it out. We eventually dug through this underground stream and got into good clay.
We had 2 scrapers bring in clay, and a dozer was forcing the clay down into the base of the trench as the excavator was pulling out the junk. We actually excavated out quite a bit of the clay we were putting into the hole, just to make sure it was all good material. The contractor worked his butt off, but the pond is sealed and has not leaked (knock on wood).
If you can find good clay beneath, your best bet would just to try to complete the core as originally designed. I see another response in which they used tubes to divert this water, but it sounded like that was quite a project.
Good luck.
