I'd like to propose something called the "Baird Method". It's a result of my continuing obsession with Cecil's giant trout and perch that he's raised. Of course, Cecil, if you want to edit or rewrite anything that I've written please let me know.

Here's my definition, both long form and short form.

Long form definition: The Baird Method of raising big fish involves a combination of well water, vegetation management, high flow through and general aquaculture concepts to raise the biggest fish possible.

Short form definition: Smaller pond = Bigger fish

The more I've studied what Cecil Baird does, the more I've come to realize that if you're raising fish on 20 gpm of well water, you can manage water quality much more effectively in a smaller pond than a bigger pond. The more time that a drop of water spends in a pond, the more time it has to lose quality, i.e. gain ammonia, or single celled algae. Another way to put this is to think about how many fish can be raised in a hatchery raceway. The number of fish per gallon of water is stupendous compared to, say, a one acre pond. Cecil's "ponds" are essentially well managed raceways.

I've found that I can easily raise and grow 100 pounds of fish in a 400 gallon tank if I flow through 1.5 gpm. That same 1.5 gpm flowed into a 250,000 gallon pond will only support about 250 pounds of fish. I believe that the secret is the turnover or flowthrough rate. High turnover means that the water essentially doesn't have enough time to become fouled.

Cecil's ponds are big enough to fish and have fun at, but small enough that they resemble giant raceways. This is evidenced by the fact that Cecil can support a year-round trout fishery in his climate.

Anyway, here is my idea.

I'd like to take my Dad's pond, which I budget 10-15 gpm in the summer, and use that water to cycle through a micro-pond that is only about 216 square feet, and an average of 3.5 feet deep. That's 756 cubic feet, right? And about 5,600 gallons? I think this micro-pond can be used to raise easily 100-150 pounds of fish. It can also be readily cleaned, emptied, or filled at a whim. I would also like to place several of the Floating Island International islands in it for cover, and waste management.

Now comes this initial question to all of you pondmeisters.

My Dad and I measured out the intended dimensions of the pond this morning and here are the pictures.





My Dad is standing inside the "dam" if you will.

The question is this. What is the best way to tie in the pond liner to the edges of the embankment? My initial idea is to create a flat "edge" all the way around the pond that I can place what are commonly referred to as pavers to hold the liner down, then bury the liner just outside of the stones.

Is there a more elegant way to do this? I just really want it to look as good as possible.

I think that this sort of project might have some value to lots of other pondmeisters who have a well, or even a heat pump discharge near their pond. It could serve as a holding area for bait, or it could be used for a mini fishing experience for kids, or you could raise big brown trout. Almost anything is possible.

Bruce, I get 5657 gallons of water in 216 sq.ft. 3.5 ft deep.

Refreshing at 10 gpm gives 14,400 gallons per day (flush it 2.54 times a day); 15 gpm gives 21,600 gallons per day (flush it 3.82 times a day).

Congratulations, you have invented the outdoor PBR. (Only fitting, since you first invented the indoor PBR).

With those flush rates, I think you can take everything you've learned inside the Morton building and apply it on a larger scale - fish carrying capacity should be quite similar.

You might want to think about possible sunscreens for shade, maybe even to cut maximum insolation in the hottest months, depending on what kind of fish you stock. Maybe a treated wooden framework that you could tie tarps up on when needed.

P.S. Somebody check my math - engineers can be off by a factor of ten and we still don't call it wrong.

I actually have enough floating islands to cover over half of the surface area of the pond. That would do the trick, right? That brings me to another question, in addition to the liner question posed above. If I make the slopes steep enough, will I have to worry about herons? And also, will great blue herons feed off of a floating island? That could be a potential problem. I'd hate to have to buy an individual MJ for each island.

what about a narrow trench around the perimeter?...bring the liner up and over (out of pond), and fold edges back down into perimeter trench....backfill, and place decorative stones wherever.

i've seen herons and egrets stand in water up to their bodies (~1.5-2') and plunge at fish in deeper water.

If you are worried about GBH - fence off the area around and over the pond.

Some floating islands would give shade without reducing most solar heating. Probably best unless you go with cold water species.

This thread certainly opens up some ideas I hadn't thought about.

I have several "holes" that I dug to keep debris and leaves out of my pond. Here is an ice covered hole that is about 10 x 25 feet. It sounds a lot like the one that Bruce is contemplating. The hole is about 6.5 feet deep, although it probably now has at least 18-24 inches of oak leaves on the bottom.



In the photo above, you can see my main pond to the right. This little hole sits about 150 feet from the main pond, and it's top level is probably about seven to nine feet above the main pond top level.

I've dug two more smaller holes between this hole and my main pond. This is the hole I dug just where this particular water vein enters my main pond through about a 10-inch by 15-foot long pipe.







It is about a 3-foot deep hole that gathered at least 12 inches of leaves last fall and over the winter. I figure I'll dig out the leaves during the dry time in August or September.

I never got to finish the first hole because it started raining. It filled with water shortly after I started digging. The edges are much steeper than I planned. Three sides are almost 1:1. I hope to expand it once it starts to dry out. As small as it is, I had planned to core the dam, but . . .

I dug the hole late last March with the front-end loader and backhoe on my tiny tractor. Even during the driest parts of last summer's drought, it had at least 3 feet of water.

It is heavily shaded by trees. I would guess that it won't get a lot of sunshine induced oxygen during the summer. So, I hadn't really thought much about trying to keep anything in it except maybe some fatheads or rosy reds.

I don't easily have a way to get well water to this little hole. But, I'm now thinking I could use something like a small windmill to pump several GPM of water uphill from my main pond to this hole.

I may just try pumping this spring and summer. I'd probably try it with about 25 8-10 inch catfish. If that works, I may try single-sexed BG during the summer after next.

Thanks for the ideas. Let's try to keep this idea alive.

Ken

I'm going to have the sides slope almost immediately to the maximum depth of 4.5 feet. Do you think a GBH would consider hunting from atop a floating island? How about totally from shore? It seems to me that IIRC GBH like to be at least a little bit in the water.

Cat, I think you're really on to something. If you pump from the main pond I've always heard that the best quality water comes from the middle third of the water column. Too far down to have tons of algae, and too far up to have tons of organic waste. Take my word for it--ponds like this can be fish producing machines if you can bring in all fresh water a couple of times each day. It also seems like your little ponds are about the right size.

Judging from the calling cards they leave, GBH are totalry in to standing on my upside-down canoe, scoping out seafood. They would at least use the islands for observation posts.

Bruce,

I've closely watched the GBHs that visit my pond. They always seem to land on the shore:


and, then they wade near the shore before they steal my fish:


I can't prove a double negative. But, based on posts by Cecil, late last summer I strung 50 lb. test mono filament line on tent stakes about six inches high around the shallow areas of my pond edges. After doing so, I never saw geese or GBHs on my pond. I don't know if it was coincidence or if it really worked. I plan to try it again this coming summer.

Ken

Is this what you're suggesting? Sorry about the cruddy drawing.

Heck yes you can't.

Bruce, Can you make the Outdoor PBR larger to result in 1 turnover a day? Increasing the size and reducing the flow rate should allow you to raise just about as many fish and maybe more fish. Is space the limiting factor for the design?. Hopefully Cecil can respond to provide turnover rate per day of his original trout pond adjacent to his house.

To keep herons off the islands you could pound short stakes around the perimeter of the islands then lace string or monofilment 10"-20" high around the stakes.

Bruce I think DIED means to bring the liner out of the pond and place it in a shallow trench that surrounds the shoreline of the pond. Backfill the trench with dirt and then if desired you could place pavers or stones on top of backfill to help hold backfill in place. This would be especially imortant if trench is shallow.

Space is a limiting factor, to a certain extent, but I do have the capability of adding a second similarly sized pond if this one works. That way I could put 8 gpm in each pond and be able to grow more fish. The reason I can't make the current one much bigger is because the width is confined by the width of the draw, and the length is confined by the downward slope towards my Dad's pond. If it's too long then I have to move literally tons more dirt to get the even perimeter.

Yes, hopefully Cecil jumps in here with some numbers on what he thinks is a good turnover rate.

Does anybody want to draw a cruddy picture for me so I can visualize this? Remember that whatever I do I need to be able to try and prevent dirt from washing into the pond during a rain event.

From your photos and vistiting the site last spring, I figured space was limited. Knowing you, I figured you would make it as big as practical.
Larger pond designs may be available to others with the same idea. The main things to figure out how much flow and turnover is needed for a certain poundage of fish. Cecil should be able to provide lots of info about this equation.

Go back to your drawing, under the 2 pavers closest to the water under each of thse pavers make a trench (dip in the dirt). Have liner go down into the trench. Fill trench with dirt. Outside edge of liner can be completely buried or come back out the trench and on top the ground. But with this method you do have bare dirt close the pond. From exposed dirt, you will get silt runoff into the pond especially on the up hill side of the pond. Can you make a shallow diversion ditch on the updhill side that directs runoff around the pond?.

To post your drawing did you, photograph it, then post the photo?

Yes, diversion ditch is a great idea. I'll incorporate that. I think I'm starting to get the picture.

There was a period of time last fall that I had a 10' diameter metal stock tank, that holds 1100 gallons, and it had 125 bluegill that totalled probably 50 pounds. The fish were actively feeding and growing for about a seven week period. This was very exciting for me. I kept feeding the living daylights out of those fish and the water stayed crystal clear. No aeration, just a 3 gpm sweeper nozzle. The only issue I had is that I grew lots of filamentous algae (ironically the only FA on my entire farm), but this was really easy to clean out by hand. That turnover rate was about 5 times daily. This is approximately the equivalent turnover as a 15 gpm nozzle in the new pond. If you extrapolate these numbers I would think that 150 pounds of fish would be easily achievable.

Yes, I drew it, took a digital photo and uploaded to photobucket. The whole process from beginning of drawing to image showing up on forum was less than four minutes.

If you make a drawing and email it to me I could pop it up on the thread.

What is the goal for this pond? What do you plan to grow in it and how big?

I'd like it to be an observation pond for some especially big bluegill, and to raise a few jalopy yellow perch since I think they would summer over really well. I have some 13 inchers in my big pond that I could easily move over.

Bruce,

Over the years, I've filtered the input to a number of ponds. Mostly, it has been multiple sets of holes in each major source of water to the pond.

The photo from above shows one of several holes above my pond:



In this case, I used a small water hole (5x5, about 2-foot deep) above a small rock wall. The water passes through the rock wall into a slightly larger pond, about 10x10, and 3-foot deep. This lower pond flows through another rock wall, a screen, and a culvert, before it empties into my main pond.

I've never tested the water in these ponds, but it is crystal clear as it moves to the next lowest level.

I make use of rock walls to trap debris throughout my watershed. I clean out debris from these holes during the summer dry months.

Ken

Cat, how can you make the water levels reliable? Are there periods of time that they are just dry?

Bruce,
D-ski's sister built a very elaborate, 2 level Koi/Goldfish pond in her backyard in surburbia Chicago. Believe it or not, GBH are a problem here, also. We're talking 75' wide city-type lots in a major suburb. The GBH have actually been spotted landing on house roofs.
Nancy built this stunning pond with a waterfall in her backyard. I've seen it; it's worthy of a magazine shoot. It's about 8' wide and 25' long in 2 separate pools. She was losing fish to the GBH. She wound up using fine black mesh (kinda like deer netting...maybe it was...?) that was about 3' tall and put in narrow rods to hold it up around the pond perimeter. She also started out with a cover of the same, but it became a PIMA, so she eliminated it. She concluded that the GBH was unable to make the pin-point landing, or was afraid. Instead, it would land in the yard and saunter to the buffet. She would occassionally come home to find the netting and poles kinda pushed over, but not collapsed. She lost no more fish.

Bruce,
My $.02 on how I would build this.
I would shape the tank out of dirt, with edges on the sides poking up like an old style bathtub, about a foot higher than water level.
I would shape a long flat inlet that comes into the tank about 8" below the sides.
I would shape a long flat discharge that leaves the tank at about 10" below the sides, this would be water level.
I would grade the inlet and outlet out from the tank whatever extra length one roll of liner would give me.
Then on the inlet and outlets I would put little berms about the size of concrete blocks on each side, but not as wide as the tank.
Unroll the roll of liner from one end to the other.
Put dirt or crushed rock on top of the liner outside of all the side berms. (on the outside of the bathtub).
Could be made to look like a mountain stream coming in and leaving with just some rock. My thinking on making a long inlet was that the area covered with liner inside the side berms can have water flow over it right into the tank.

B'ski! Fascinating. That exactly the stuff I wanted/didn't want to hear. Do you have any photos of her setup? It sounds like it would be very cool to see.

Bruce,

The thought of a windmill mentioned above is based on the normal three dry months we have here. To keep the 10 x 25 x 6 foot hole full of water, I'm thinking I need far less than 10 gph. I'm hoping that a significant amount of water over that limit should flow back into the main pond. I'm more concerned about oxygen levels and ammonia if my fish grow too much during the warm weather.

Hopefully, all of this should be realizable with a small pump, and should have minimal effect on my main pond level if I pull the water from there.

As you mentioned above, pulling water from the center level of my main pond may provide the best water.

I've also got an unused two-story 3000 square-foot building on my property. It is well insulated, with a concrete floor, a 200 amp electric service, heat, telephone/wideband internet, and air conditioning. It is about 600 feet from my house and about 1000 feet from my pond. The previous owner used it as a taxidermy studio. The well that also feeds my house, feeds this building. The well was rated at 24 gpm when it was drilled. I keep thinking I need to put this building to use -- I just don't know for what purpose.

Ken

zhkent, I sent you a PM.

Cody's image.

Question for Bill.

If I chose the appropriate sized stone or smooth rock couldn't the trench and diversion ditch be one and the same?

Also, just FYI, I have a hill on each side, but I get the point. Well done.

I need zhkent's drawing!

I'll have D-ski reach out to her sis' and get details and pics.
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The last last vacation property we owned (before we cashed it in for the pond project) had a very nice little goldfish pond on it. It was 30" deep and about 6' x 10' plus/minus. Anyway, we eventually filled it in because it was a maintenance headache, and the coons felt too welcome.

-
When we dis-assembled it, it was a normal black rubberized sumthin-or-other pond liner. The hole was dug and shaped with a shelf going around one edge. The laid in old shag carpeting on the bottom surfaces and the ledge surfaces, then laid the liner right over it. Where it would turn around a perimeter, they simply folded it incrementally and laid about 12" - 18" over the top edge. This hem around the outside of the pond was held down with 2" - 3" thick flagstone, all the way around. Fill 'er up.
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There was alot of trees over the thing, and part of the maintenance nightmare was cleaning out leaves in the fall and seeds/pods in the spring. I built this thing as a last ditch effort to save the pond.

-
It's all 1" PVC and glued fittings. The netting is that fine black mesh stuff with 1" square openings. I secured it to the PVC frame with tiny nylon cable ties. I pounded in a #3 rebar directly beneath each leg, leaving about 18" of the rebar above grade. The legs slipped right over the rebar. It worked good, but for one unexpected drawback. Ocassionally a Goldfinch would somehow get inside. Once they are in, they can't get back out. Just one more reason to eventually scrap the entire fish pond thing.

Guys,

I've got some thoughts and will respond. Problem is right not that darn head cold still has the best of me and it's hard to think. I'm sitting here with coffee in hand hoping it will sooth my throat.

Wow I'm worn out just from that paragraph!

You mean hold the liner down with rock only, no soil, and have the same ditch serve as a french drain to divert runoff around the pond?

Catmandoo:

I believe your concept of pumping main pond water up to mini-ponds would in many ways parallels drawing a domestic water supply from a ponds (on the supply side, not wrt treatment). As you and Bruce indicated, the best water is supposed to be 2 to 3 feet down from the surface - that's the level with the lowest combination of plants, plankton, and bottom sediment, plus I agree it should have decent oxygen levels and lower organic wastes than bottom water.

You may want to consider an inlet filter such as these listed by Stoney Creek Equipment. I use one of the 4" centrifugal pump intake filters for a gravity fed water line (and need to get another one for my new pond's companion cattle trough) with the internal check valve disabled, since in my application there is no pump attached.

Bruce if you want this for mostly observation consider a white or light liner or background. Much easier to see fish with a light background.

My mom and dad have a koi pond in their backyard. It used to have some huge koi and beautiful koi in it. Until the herons found their place. The ate most of the koi in a day or two.

Their pond was constructed using the method diagrammed above. The liner was brought up the sides of the pond to a shelf that was outside the pond. Landscape boulders were placed on the liner to hold it in place.

They tried a wire around the perimeter of the pond and it didn't seem to distract the herons much. Finally they resorted to one of those motion detector sprinkler things. That has worked ever since (although it does occasionally blast their dog who apparently is not as intelligent as a heron).

Oh and Bruce you might want to consider placing a bank or savings and loan on your international offshore island. (Republic of Condello Savings and Loan). That way you can launder mafia money and retire from your other illicit profession of part time dentistry.

And that's all I have to say about that.

bill's diagram is what i was thinking (thanks bill). you could backfill the trench w/ coarse gravel and it could be dual purpose drain and liner holder. w/ well placed edging/decorative rocks, erosion/sedimentation shouldnt be a big problem on a pond that small.

Here's a variation by zhkent.

Bruce, Most seem to agree that the diversion ditch and liner ditch could be combined and serve the same purpose.

Bruce,

I am flattered that you and others have asked for my imput. If the truth be know much of what I have done has been trial and error and dumb luck, but I have learned some things along the way.

O.K. first some things I have learned about the herons...

Will they try to stand and feed off a floating island? Darn tootin they will! I've seen them spear fish off of one of my piers as soon as I went back into the house just after feeding time, and I've seen them stand on top of my floating cages looking for an easy meal before I was smart enough to put covers on the cages. They are very adaptable birds and evolved to get fish anyway they can. They can actually curl their feet around a 1 1/2 inch PVC cage frame, which of course is not hard to believe as they do perch in trees at night and during nesting time. And they have sharp claws for gripping.

[b]The steep banks work really well to discourage herons, but I did have one bird that was willing to stand precariously on a very steep bank (almost vertical) waiting to lunge at a fish. He was able to grasp some weeds to hold himself in place. He was willing to take a chance at a tumble to get at one of my nice juicy brook trout. So steep banks are not 100 precent failsafe. That said, steep banks in combination with simple stake lines around the pond and either an electric fence or just some heavy braided fishing line should do the trick. I prefer the braided line that is brightly colored so they get the message. I once freed a pigeon from monofilament line as it got it's wing tangled in it. I wasn't crazy about that. I think if it had been able to see the line better it would have not got into that mess.

As far as the islands I would think the only way to make them non heron friendly would be the staked lines as Bill mentioned. And lets just say they only use the islands as resting places. That would still mean their fecal matter could end up in the pond and don't forget all they have to do is tilt their heads down to allow parsites to enter the water.

And even though herons are a wading bird, and are said not to land in water they will do so if they realize the bottom is shallow enough for them to stand on. A colleague tells me she sees them landing in a nearby shallow river all the time. So you want to make your underwater banks steep and the water deep enough so they can't land in it.

Not sure if I'm crazy about the islands in such a small pond for aother reason. Sounds like they would be geese (what Bill Cody calls flying toilets) or duck magnets which would be O.K. in a bigger pond, but most likely these birds could bring in too many nutrients and bring in aquatic weeds, or even parasites. One pair of geese could make a mess on a pond that size.

If you want the pond as an observation pond is it possible the fish would naturally go under the islands where you can't see them?

Do you have an ospreys or bald eagles in the area? They could cause you problems too in a small pond especially with clear water. Again some staked lines across the top of the pond would discourage them if necessary.


Your water exchange rate would be more than my ponds. My trout pond(s)(the one I have now and the one I originally had) had and have an exchange rate of about 2/3's a day vs. your projected exchange rate of about 2.5 times per day. My water temp doesn't go above the mid 60's on the surface in the hottest part of the summer in the trout pond, and that is with no shade. Seems to me your pond might stay even cooler. Or due to it being shallower warm up a little? Sounds more like a trout pool to me but I could be wrong. If so, you could have up to about 120 pounds of trout in your pond based on a carrying capacity of 12 pounds per gpm of flow which is what I use. And of course they are fed pellets too. That's still a fun group of fish to have whether it's 120 one pounders, 60 two pounders. 30 four pounders, or 12 ten pounders. If you went the trout route I would start out with higher numbers of course, and gradally thin them down. Of course you will have some natural mortality. If you went the trout route I would also do some mixing of the water column at night and on cool days with a diffuser to aide in nutrient breakdown. Make the banks inside and under the water steep enough to keep cooling down, discourage the herons of course, and discourage racoons from nailng any fish. Trout are actually a no brainer as long as you get healthy fish, and the water stays cool and oxygenated and they get enough to eat but you don't overfeed them.

If you want to go with bluegills and perch I would either enlarge the pond and/or reduce the flow if full flow keeps the water too cool for them. You could adjust the flow into the pond depending on the time of year or divert some of it away from the pond at certain times of the year. I will be doing this this year with my second pond in the series. Early in the year when i want the water to warm up a little i will divert the trout pond inflow away from the pond. Later in the summer when the full trout pond flow keeps the water in the secound pond in the series the perfect mid 70's range I run it in full bore. Which brings me to another possible suggestion rather than screw around with trying to constantly adjust flows:

Have two ponds. One for coldwater fish and the second for coolwater fish like the perch, but the bluegill would do fine in low 70 degree water. It's actually possible the bluegill would live longer in the cooler water vs. the much warmer water where growth is faster. Cooler water holds more oxygen and serves as a safety net too.

To show you how little flow you need and how small earth ponds can be to grow out trout I'm going to see if I can find an article in a magazine with pics of a series of trout ponds that sure simply pits. I don't believe they have liners either.

Did I miss anything?

Nonsense, Cecil - First we had "Cecil Envy" (now up to 39 pages of PBR excitement) and now "The Baird Method". Clearly you are essential to the Condello creative process.

Please provide Bruce with your middle name so he can start formulating his next great idea.

Middle name is 'Dale'.

Dang it Cecil, I was gonna propose a "Guess Cecil's middle name contest." The winner would have received a 1 gallon bucket of Dippity Doo (that I was hoping I could talk Theo into contributing from his vat of the substance).

My guess was gonna be Finneus. Cecil Finneus Baird. It has a very stately ring to it.

I have been gone a while and just got caught up on all this. All i can say is
BRILLIANT!

Baloney on the dumb luck thing. You're far too modest. We know how much you read and study. I'll give you the trial and error thing, but I think there almost no luck at all involved.





OK, point taken.





Alrighty. That's exactly what I'll do.






Should not be a problem at my place. Geese are scarce, and ducks are even scarcer.





That's fine with me if I can't see them all the time. I figure if I see them all the time, then the herons will be even more interested.





Fortunately I don't




That's fascinating...and excellent information. I think you've just saved me some money, because I can either reduce the flow rate or create a second pond.



I'm already starting to scheme on how to do this. Thanks to you.





No. As usual you were thorough and full of good ideas. I'm going to run with several of these.

Slightly more colorful versions of zhkent's proposal.





Which brings me to an important question. In these drawings, the inner "lip", if you will,of the outer rock filled ditch is kind of pointy and unsupported. It is my feeling that this will sag and eventually collapse over a couple of years. Am I right?

I had considered features on the drawings, like the inner lip curves (and the steepness of the pond sides), to be exaggerated for clarity, and would definitely widen the lip out in actuality.

Man those are awful drawings.
The picture in my brain looks much better.

The overall size of liner available might be took into consideration for the final design.
The size and type of rock or gravel will make quite a bit of difference in the overall appearance in the end. What colors, sizes and shape of rock are available will influence that decision.
I've seen some pretty rock that is shaped like large sand granules and colored like that. I think it was actually large sand cleaned out of finer sand. Rounded edges.
You may not want to cover quite as much area with rock as I show. However if the liner is large enough to cover the areas around the pond, and you cover that with rock, it shouldn't require much maintenance. Also the area around the pond in your location will have some runoff and the liner and rock should keep it from washing or getting muddy.
I hope you can find a nice color and texture of rock you like.
Size wise I would suggest going with as large of gravel as you can comfortably walk on. Or get some larger, for placing, and some smaller to make paths with.
1 ten wheeler dumptruck load would probably do it, 2 would do it for sure and leave extra.
If the liner is long enough to cover 2 ponds, it wouldn't ad much to the project to make 2 ponds. (If one roll of liner will cover both, no leakage from one pond to the next.)
In Bruces' last post the top cruddy drawing is inlet-pond-pond-outlet.
Just change that to inlet-pond-pond-(between pond spillway)-pond-pond-outlet. The between pond spillway would have the same cross section as the outlet, length and amount of fall between ponds would be variable, to fit ponds in as required.

The diagram clearly states that the rock must be purple!

Bruce,

Now I have a question. In one of your small ponds you had problems with air bubbles under the liner -- or was it water under the liner that made you liner do funny things? I talked this over with a local liner supplier and he thought you may not have allowed the liner to freely get pulled in as the water filled it. He said one should not trench the outside edge of the liner until the pond is entiredly full.

Was this case or were there other reasons? I know I get water under my well pit liner every spring that seeps in underground which can't be helped. I have a sand vein underneath it.

Good question. I believe the name usually given to that is "whaleback" or "whalebacking". The number one way to avoid it is to have the liner be one perfect piece. I was getting water through the seam immediately. The other way to avoid the dreaded whaleback is to do exactly as you described and get the pond at least partially full before you begin the process of trenching in the liner. One good thing though, is that those liners are seriously tough. Almost untearable.

My bad! I do remember now that you said you had pieced some liner together and strongly discourage others from doing that from the negative experience you had.

My potential supplier encourages a different liner than the black stuff for some reason. Don't remember if he said why.

How 'bout this for a variation.

Why not make the base concrete, and the sidewalls out of cinder block?

I'm not experienced enough with this stuff to make a cost comparison, but the liner needs to be around triple the surface area of the pond, but concrete would only need to be exactly the surface area. The liner comes in at around 70 cents/s.f., and the concrete, with what my guy called a "broom finish?", would be under 3 bucks s.f. This is a virtual wash. Then the cinder block would only have to be six high, and 65 around the circumference, which my construction dude said would be only 450 dollars delivered. Maybe I'm oversimplifying, but it seems to me like you could put a really cheap plastic around the outside of the cinder block, and back fill to it. This amount of dirt work should be any tougher (maybe even easier?), so where would the extra expense be? You could even put some conduit in through the base of the concrete to support a pond light, like what n8ly had, and an aeration line.

I need somebody to tear this idea apart and bring me back to reality. Remember that I want a pond that my water will cycle through to my Dad's pond that is about 30 feet X 10 feet, and about 4 feet deep.

Basically with concrete base and cinder block walls you are talking about a raceway design. I have seen several to numerous fish holding tanks made this way (Bob Lusk has some holding tanks built this way). Insides are usually coated with water proofing paint/epoxy. The main structural problem that I envision with this is cracking of the side walls due to ground shift or freeze/thaw cycles. Ground shift and cracking can be reduced with proper reinforcing rods in the concrete base, and a properly built footer. Concrete blocks should be somehow tied to the concrete base to eliminate breaking away of the blocks from the base. Possibly pouring the top layer of concrete so it surrounds an inch or two of the bottom layer of concrete blocks, thus locking or sealing the blocks to the base. Additional reinforcing of blocks could be done by pouring concrete into the cavities of the blocks. I'm not sure how the ground embeded "raceway" will perform structually duing annual freezing and thawing cycles. Cement mason should be able to provide advice with this. I'd get 2-3 opinions about this.

Bruce, many of the smaller ponds here are built the way you have described. We have liners available, but the smaller ponds almost always use concrete slabs with block walls. However, almost all are above ground, eliminating the need for excavation. Many build in drain pipe and some use common wall construction and build several ponds.

Here they cover the bottom with a few inches of top soil to get a culture going and stock within a couple of weeks of completion.

Thanks Bill and Rad. I think this thread would greatly benefit from any comments made regarding stabilization of walls to prevent collapsing inward. Especially in a freeze/thaw climate. I'd like the pond to look as natural as possible, so of course I'd like the upper margin to be level with the surrounding terrain. My intuition tells me that the walls could be made stronger by intelligent use of surrounding soils. After all, they do this to build houses right?

Cracks in basement cement block walls are common. Cracks in the raceway side walls will leak water into the soil. A small amount of leakage may not be a big problem. A liner inside the "raceway" would prevent leakage after cracks form. Some basement sidewalls are poured concrete. Annual caulking of cracks may reduce leakage. Expanded insulation foam may be helpful to seal large cracks.

Cracks can have sharp edges, or produce sharp shards. Could these puncture a liner in combination with water pressure (minimal pressure with Bruce's shallow concept)?

Is there any reason I should be concerned about a small amount of leakage? Especially given that the pond would be a flow through with at least 10,000 gallons added each day?

Considering the leak water would end up in your Dad's pond (IIRC), where the overflow will go, the biggest problem would seem to be eroding/washing out something. Right?

Yes, that's correct.

For what its worth the pond book I have that shows how to build ornamental ponds warns against concrete in climates where there is freezing or thawing. It coincides with what Bill cody said.

I built a wood foundation for my log home specifically because all concrete foundations crack. They are also damp to some extent. My specially treated wood foundation with a pea gravel exterior is dry as a bone. No leaks whatsoever in 12 years.

Do you really need a liner or concrete? If your soil is not too porous, and you alter your banks to keep them from caving in, why bother? One added benefit of a natural soil pond is more natural conversion of nitrites to nitrates etc. And although I find my Chara growth annoying, and try to keep it thinned out, I have no doubt it provides addtional surface for nitrification and produces some oxygen during the day. And friend in the know says it provides a lot of habitat for forage insects also.

Could a wood foundation be built for a pond? Like a pole barn?

Couple of things I would consider here, first, if the water flow is constant the pond walls could be reduced to 3 feet. Three foot walls require a lot less re-enforcing than 4. So with Bill Cody's rebar from slab to wall idea the strength problem is solved. Next you cold weather basement guys know that there are coatings that waterproof basement walls, which if applied to the outside of the pond walls would solve many of the leak problems, especially if you planned on another coating on the inside.
Concrete has come a long ways and adding the right supplements will increase the elasticity a great deal so freeze/thaw factors can be reduced.
The biggest problem I see is in making a silk purse out of a sow's ear and I am wondering why that is a goal? Wouldn't an above ground pond work as well? Plus it would give you an opportunity to evaluate an entirely different way of managing a pond.
I believe that you could grow some big fish really fast in a high water flow system, but that type of system would require a lot of management and better to do it standing up than bending over. Just a thought.

How committed are you to trying to make it look "natural", Bruce?

100% committed. I know this makes it a lot tougher, but I've already created some eyesores on my property. I'd hate to do it again.

I've had the same experiences with the GBH on my dock as CB does. A solar powered electric fence my discourage repeat attempts to defeat your defenses. I saw in a pond catalog that they make stakes for a low fence that extends over the water at a 45 deg angle.

I could make a good estimate that coating concrete and will cost as much or more than a liner. How about using railroad ties and/or retaining wall blocks covered with a liner? They can handle some heaving and movement but wouldn't move so much to compromise the liner. They look pretty natural, at least as much as pavers do. Here's a rough sketch.

Thanks, Ryan. Your depiction is more legible than some.

Is there a way that I could buy some of that inexpensive plastic sheeting that painters use and put it under the concrete before it's poured, and then lift it up and around the outside of the cinder block, then backfill it? Would that kind of plastic keep most of the dirt out and the water in? Would it degrade over time if it is completely packed between soil and concrete?

You guys have been fantastic at participating in this thread. I really believe that it will come in handy for a few others as well.

Visquilene? It degrades big time in sun and weather. I think it will hold up much longer buried, but it's been 10 years or more since I've seen any that was underground for a few years. And that stuff was wadded up - I don't know if it would still hold water.

Maybe try it as a low cost attempt, with aback-up plan if needed.

i wouldnt go for visqueen, we use it in my business alot, and i have some layin around that has deteriorated pretty quickly, granted its not buried, but i would still get a thick durable geotextile fabric for purposes of long term "keeping water in".

Any ideas on how to price "thick durable geotextile fabrics"?

not specifically. i used to get free samples all the time from vendors, target audience being environmental remediation folks and landfills. i'll see if i can dig up a couple names and send you a PM..might be a day or two, you in a hurry? my older files are archived in the attic otherwise try some internet searches for "geotextile(s)", "landfill liner(s)"...probably point you in the right direction.

Definitely not in a hurry. I was just trying to crunch numbers of the various possibilities. Thank you.

Making it look nice is a lot easier/cheaper with a polyvinyl chloride (PVC) liner. Using Ryan's diagram you can dig a free form hole. DIY retaining wall blocks can be used to follow the design, as well as dress up the edge(nice work Ryan).
The fish farmers here are starting to use liners, not necessarily for leakage problems but, because they are easily cleaned after they are drained. Allowing faster turn around.

You have probably looked at liner sites but here is one in case you have not.
http://www.pondliners.com/installation.html

OK, I'm a little slow--but maybe I'm getting it now.

You guys are saying that I could do the retaining wall, and skip the concrete floor, and place the PVC liner. That would be interesting. Is PVC liner the same as EPDM liner. The EPDM is what I've used in the past.

Bruce:

See pages 142-144 of Perfect Pond: Want One for a quick refresher on different liner materials.

THANK YOU!! I'd forgotten about that. I just got the book out and started enjoying it all over again.

BTW, did you know page 13 has a photo of the Conderosa?

I was just thumbin' thru my favorite Sunday paper sales flyer, Menards, and I bumped into this one.
Gray Shield Coating 4.75 gal bucket on sale for $90
Ultra -Violet stable, liquid rubber membrane seals and waterproofs foundations above/below grade. May be applied to concrete, wood, foam, and other surfaces.

Guys I've used the visqueen for a small 25 by 30 pond that was seeping. It was the plastic they use for greenhouses. Trouble was it looked great until I dropped something into the bottom and put a hole in it. I would not think it would last long. I would not recommend it.

Ahh, yes, "... raw land, a pastoral setting, Hop Sing fixing the family's traditional Italian repast..." - how could I have missed it?

I recognized at lot of pics from LL2 the last time I read it.

Bruce,
Hit that link I gave you and you will see pvc liners that are especially for ponds, comes in 45 and 60 mil, also the cost is listed.

I would say yes, but you would then need a footing/foundation.

I was thinking for a better look to dig a hole with an artistic look, yeah I know, 3 to one sides, line it and use Ryans idea for the edge, it will look very nice. Add some plants....

Sheet piling may be an inexpensive option as well. It is made from lots of different materials (vinyl, fiberglass, metal, wood) and the top of the wall could be capped with something that looks natural like a landscape timber or a row of retaining wall block. Sheet piling could allow some fluid curves and doesn't require a level footer, it just gets driven in.

OOoooh. Interesting.

Is this what you're talking about?



How would one get sheet piling for as low cost as possible? What kinds of companies keep this kind of stuff. Very interesting, indeed.


P.S....and can sheet piling be placed at an angle, or does it have to be vertical?

Search your yellow pages under "driven shoring" or "pile driving Contractors"

I've only seen it placed vertically. I was thinking the steep vertical sides would make in tougher for the GBHs and you could backfill for your walks

Bruce,
Here is another way, scale it down some. The other thought is to use DIY retaining wall blocks for the side walls, no need for a floor. Then use the liner.

Here's another crazy idea. How about a series of pools overflowing into each other, built out of grain bin rings? They're pretty cheap, especially if you can find them used and you could have pools for different species. Liners can be purchased for them. This is how my tilipia tank was built and I've seen similar at fish farms. You could then backfill the sides and finish the edges to look natural. They typically come in 33" or 44" high if I remember correctly. They wouldn't need a foundation either.

Really not crazy at all. As a matter of fact, that is by far the simplest and most effective of all solutions. AND I'm going to do that exact thing in a different draw. The only problem in my current case is that it won't look natural enough.

I was going to lead you toward looking into shotcrete when I came across this http://www.koivet.com/html/articles/arti...e=Miscellaneous

I'm trying to incorporate a lot of what I'm learning here. I think eventually I'll be able to use this information to make a much larger pond, but for my little 9 X 30 footer how would this work?



You could cut the earth with a skid-loader (as pictured above), then lay out some inexpensive tightly woven garden fabric, then use the vertical earth to support the lower level of cinder blocks, then drive high quality fence posts into the holes, before filling with whatever it is you fill cinder blocks with for reinforcement.

After this you could pour some concrete over the fabric and up against the lower level of cinder block to pin the block against the earth.



I still haven't figured out what you do with cinder blocks in a curve situation.

Does this idea have any merit? I like a lot of the other ideas better, but I'm dealing with an extreme budget here.

Too bad I'm not like Ryan. I'd create some really cool looking graphics.
Th

If you're curving sharply enough to make a serious "v" gap on the outside, you could place another row of blocks outside the gap.

Consider alternating block placement as in a typical brick/block wall. This would make the wall stronger. It would be harder to do a sharp curve, but the "v" gap would be less problematic.

[__][__][__][__]
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Bruce,
Usually blocks are staggered, full block starts first row, half block starts 2nd and so on, this makes it easier to curve the wall.
Were it me, I think, using your drawing I would make the block walls as you describe, the vertical openings are filled with concrete. I would cap the top of the block wall with a half round layer of concrete all along the top edge, at the same time I filled the cells in the block.

I would skip the concrete bottom and put the liner inside the block. Then wrap the liner over the cap and fill the back with a layer of gravel, then dirt to cover the edge of the liner. You need to fill the liner with water prior to anchoring it.
The gravel at the bottom of the outside of the wall should assist with moving water from above to around the pond. You can then top the exposed liner with whatever you have handy that suits your eye.

Cinder block walls basically have no horizontal strength, even when mortared unless they have a load on top. This is why most contractors will not backfill around a foundation until some of the structure is built on top. In one case I know of, a house was completely built and the foundation was backfilled with sand. Hydraulic pressure built in the sand backfill and all the basement walls collapsed but pyramids at the corners. As Rad said, you can improve the strength by coring the blocks with concrete. Typically rebar is also added to the cored holes. The dirt backfill is going to put a lot of lateral pressure on the blocks especially if you compact it for a stable base for the pavers. There is no footer so the wall will not be stable from vertical or horizontal movement at the bottom eventually causing it to crack. A reinforced concrete footer tied into the cored block wall would be much better. You could possibly dig deeper burying the bottom block and a half instead of the footer but I've never seen this done. This method's costs would likely exceed that of purpose built retaining wall blocks. Retaining wall blocks could also be reused for a future project.

Bruce,
Here a guy is making a backyard pond. He used the dirt from the hole to make a waterfall, but the hole and liner part are easy to see. One interesting note is they used roofing felt under the liner to protect the liner from their rocky soil.
Backyard Pond

Here is another backyard pond they made with wood. The pics of that are on the left side, click on them to enlarge.
Wood Backyard Pond

Man, no time to lose on this project. Get outta my way; damn the weather! Can't you see I got a pond to build?
-
It looks great, Bruce. Per usual, executed to the n'th degree.
-
OK...time for spec's. Pond dimensions? Liner dimensions/type? Describe the inflow/outflow.

22 feet long
17 feet wide at the dam
6 feet wide at the base.
Average width 11.5 feet
Surface area 253 square feet or .006 acres
Average depth 3.5 feet
.021 acre feet of water
About 7,000 gallons
Inflow is variable. Can go from less than 1 gpm up to 15 gpm depending on air temperature. Since it's lined I don't have to worry about seepage, so I can greatly minimize my water use most of the year.

Those stones are each 18 in X 15 in. X 8 inches tall. The guy I bought them from said they weigh over 100 pounds each, but I never weighed one. They were seconds, so they only cost five bucks each. It was really a steal.

Very interesting Bruce. I look forward to your progress. Can't wait to see the final product. Wish I was there to help just for fun.

Did I tell you before I dug my trout pond I hired a consultant who runs a trout farm in Wisconsin? He told me to build three small ponds 25 foot diameter that could be fed in a series or individually. I only built one and was slated to build the other two later. I didn't take his adivise after feeding well water into the one. Immediately after inflow the water into that pond appeared to be digusting weak coffee. Turns out that was due to iron that had been freshly precipitated as it came out of the well. I could have had problems with the trout in that pond at 2.42 ppms especially with smaller fingerling trout as it would have irritated their gills.

I ended up building one bigger pond at 88 by 59 feet. Building a bigger pond for the trout and only one was the best option as their was enough volume to allow the iron to settle as it came in and it was in a weaker solution due to more volume. The iron in the trout pond is a green color as iron goes from brown, to green in a weaker solution compared to the 25 foot pond I built which was more brown due to it being more concentrated.

Fortunately you don't have any issues with iron where you are at.

I wish you were here too. We could go to the Denton bar for some steaks. We could even take our friend Dr. Perca.

Here's the photo showing the pond ready for the backfill procedure. As you follow the photo to the right--that's where the waterfall will go. It will simply be a staggered stairstep of three levels of the 8 inch rock. The water will be sprayed into a small 20 gallon tub where it will swirl, then hopefully exit in a "waterfallesque" manner to the highest stone.

Is the liner going to be able stretch as the pond fills up since it is prevented from pulling down completely with the stones?

Edit: Now the liner looks like it's on top of the stones. Oh I see you folded it over temporarily to keep it away from the backhoe.

Man that Denton bar had the best food!

You will put a liner under the waterfall stone right?

The liner is laying slack on the bottom of the pond, so there won't be any tension where the liner runs under the rocks.

Yes, we folded it over, but also so we can start tamping clay into the outer gap.

Correct, the liner has enough length on the upper end to lay entirely under the full height of the waterfall.

Pictures can be deceiving. It didn't look that slack in the picture. When to you think you'll be done with the entire project?

And are you going to put trout in it?

It could take a year before it's totally done, but I hope to have fish in it within three weeks.

Things to do yet.

Build waterfall in.

Build waterfall out.

Backfill entire periphery.

Plant edges with something. Not sure what. (Any recommendations?)

Put in underwater light.

Deploy floating islands.

Install heron control.

Build patio nearby so we can eat steaks and drink beer.

Stock with yellow perch and bluegill, although next year I might try my hand at smallmouth reproduction. Not sure how to do that either. Maybe a kiddie swimming pool full of gravel?

Underwater light? Why?

As far as what to plant I think others here are more qualified. However I would strongly suggest after you plant your seed to get some Burlap from Dayton Burlap or if you can find it closer, and stake it down over the seed. This will allow the grass to come up through the burlap and the burlap will prevent erosion. The burlap will eventually rot away. When you don't want any wash in of soil that is the way to go.

I think I got a 300 by 6 foot roll for about $100.00.

http://www.daybag.com/industrial/burlap.html#rolls

Dude you really need to put some trout in there! They are a blast!

Looking good, Bruce.

3 months after finishing my SMB beds, I found the perfect free bed container - empty cattle "range tubs". These come filled with 200 lbs of the 37% protein + minerals stuff for cows that I had previously only seen in 40 lbs blocks. The empty plastic tubs are about 32" wide and 24" high - I figure one could cut them in havlf, height-wise, and make 2 SMB beds out of them. After this Winter, I have 7 of them (I think) waiting on a SMB pond in need.

Maybe you can find someone feeding them to cattle around you before you try out SMB spawning in the future.

No doubt my Dad would love it!

The light just reallty seems like fun. N8LY has one, and it's the coolest thing.

Picture?

Manana.

What's with all the Spanish lately Dude?

Nobody here much understands German or Porturalian.

Warum nicht?

Hey Cecil,
I had always heard and often seen use of burlap to assist new grass seeding areas. I took your advice, called Dayton Burlap, and purchased a 300' x 6' roll. I used it to cover an area that I tilled, fertilized, and seeded around my primary spillway pipe. This thread details the issues I encountered with the grass as it grew under the burlap. The problem pic is nearer the bottom of the page. Have you ever encountered this?

Ich versteh nicht.

Brettski,

No I didn't! All the grass I planted came up through the burlap! Did you stake it down good? Maybe the grass I planted had a smaller blade? I used seed I got from Sam's club.

However if the grass is good and thick under the burlap it shouldn't be a problem should it? Seems to me the burlap has done what it was intended to (stopped erosion until the grass takes hold. Maybe remove the burlap now or just let it rot?

24" wide, 17" high - I actually measured.

Man Bruce, that looks very good - there's a lot of work that's taken place since I was there. Whats the next step?

Fill 'er up all the way on Friday, and plumb in a drain that goes underground at the dam. I planted seed already and hope for a nice gentle rain tomorrow.

Bruce,

Planting seed? Are you guys warming up that much? Here we are lucky to get above the 40's with hard freezes at night. When it gets into the 50's it feels like a heat wave!

Hey that looks great!

I'm in the process of draining down a pond so I can put a blocking net in it. I got the 1 inch polypropelene (I think that's what it's made of) that is used for raising quail. They say it's used in aquaculture and will last a long time in the water. I wanted to get the 2 inch to have less algae blockage but the 2 inch looks it would make a perfect gill net!

I'm going to attach chain to the bottom and stake it down once I completely drain the pond. I will run two metal fence posts into the ground on each side of the pond to attack the blocking net via a nylon rope strung through the top across the center of the pond. It will be about 3 feet above the water line as the netting is 12 feet high and the pond is 9 feet deep at the deepest. This will also prevent trout from jumping over.

Brooks on one side and browns on the other.

I'll take pics soon. I sure hope it isn't more difficult than it looks. You know how those projects are alway more complicated than they look.

Edit: I'll start a new thread on that. I don't want to hijack this thread any more than I have.

Cecil! It's a thread about you and your methods! I don't think it's possible for you to hijack it.

I'm planting seed because it's sprinkling every day and I thought it might give it a head start. I'm sure I'll be overseeding in a couple of weeks when this first crop fails.

Not sure if you can freeze out grass can you? I know one guy that swears the best time to seed is just before a snowfall. I was just thinking maybe you are warmer than us.

Lysenko claimed the best time was after a snowfall, on top of it, but that was Bolshevist.

I once told my wife she was wasting her time sowing grass seed in a snowstorm. The next Spring the grass sprouted.

That's what you get for trying to teach a woman who's part Portugese about farming.

She mostly taught me. I was just a dumb city boy who didn't know manure

Bruce,

Anymore developments and pictures?

It's been raining here, so nothing new. Tomorrow I'll try to install the overflow device. It's a surprise how I'm going to do it....

A surprise to me, too.

loukeeng goood.

i wish it was raining here. pond is already a foot down, our march had a total of 0.5" rain (6th driest in recorded history), none yet in april....gonna be a long summer.....feel blessed and be glad you got ample well water sir.

Gettin' there.

Is that an overflow devise or a barbecue pit? So you hold the fish in the holding pond there and they go right to the barbecue?

Does it never stop? First Bruce suspends his fish over a cutting board. Then Bruce teaches DIED to threaten his fish with a swiss army knife. Then Bruce builds an imaginary friend and stands it over the grow out tanks to scowl at his fish, and now Bruce builds a cooking facility right next to his pond.

These are strange times on Pond Boss, strange times indeed.

Great idea! Mmmmm, 5 inch yellow perch are yummy!

Every website had it's only sick Dr. Frankenstein and Bruce is ours.

Brettski, thanks ! I'm working my way thru the topics (reading backward) lol, and saw you post about burlap. I'm building a pond and cleaning out an old bard, and the two topics struck home ! There is a 55 drum packed with old burlap bags from the 50's...they will work well with seeding my new dam !

Eastland....consider the straw matting, also. Catch it on this post . Skip the mini roto-tiller

More on growing grass
http://www.pondboss.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=74464&fpart=1