I took two large deep cycle batteries off of my inverter a while back when I sold fish out of one of my tanks and shut it down for cleaning. The inverter and batteries were used as back up power in case of a power outage. However I can't get them to hold a charge to save my life now. Any idea what may have happened? They were brand new when I hooked them up a couple of years ago and I tested them and they worked fine initially.
These were wired in parallel to increase the amp hours.
Any way to figure out what happened?
These batteries weren't cheap at about $100.00 each.
More than two years use too much to ask?
Are they serviceable? Did you check the water level?
I think all the lead/acid/water batteries are serviceable, it all depends on how creative you are.
Cecil, if they are drained, you might need a booster charger to get them jump started to get them to take a charge. A trickle charger might not be enough to charge them.
If you can get to the cells, check the water level (distilled water only), and get a battery hydrometer (do they still make them?). I've got both a battery tester (will test under load too) and a hydrometer here. Gotta check the hydrometer to see if it's still good.
I fried 2 blue top optimas (the big ones) the onboard charger on my boat went bad and was sending the wrong voltage to my batteries toasted them deader than a hammer at about $300 apiece the charger went in the dumpster and I no longer buy optimas I buy cheap $100 Walmart deep cycles and if you keep them correctly charged and fill the water every spring also doht rub them completely dead they last 3-4 years normally..
When lead acid batteries discharge, the lead plates inside dissolve and get thinner. Deep cycle batteries have thicker plates than say a standard Walmart battery so you can take them deeper without damage. However if you take them deep, but charge back up too slow, the lead does not reform over the plates evenly, only close to the terminals. This can lead to the next heavy discharge making the plate away from the terminal even more thin, possibly even damaging. Do this several times... bad battery.
To mitigate some of this effect, buffer materials are added to the dielectric (acid) in order to prevent the plates from dissolving unevenly and to help plate up evenly. This normally works great, however after let to sit for a while, these materials can leave a coating on the lead that prevents reaction. This can be resolved by administering a heavy load on the battery for a few minutes, then a normal recommended charge cycle of at least several amps. Do this a few times and the battery should increase capacity significantly. Some very good battery managers will perform this cycle for you, administering an AC like cycle if the battery is detected to have low capacity.
A very good series of deep cycle batteries is called Sunwise. I have pounded the ever-living snot out of one at work developing an advanced solar charging system for remote devices. Mostly single battery systems, but need 10 year serviceability. It performs many restoration functions, and is really careful about the last 10 percent of capacity which is considered severe emergency reserve. Tap into that and battery life suffers.
Sorry about formatting and spelling, doing this with a tablet in bed being lazy. Oh, never store batteries discharged, always charge them up first. Otherwise those thin plates warp, and potentially short to one another making individual cells go bad or causing the plates to fall apart.
If storing a very long time, you should take the acid out since they will self discharge with the same problems.
LS, is it true that deep cycle batteries have more space between the bottom of the plates and the bottom of the battery so that more material can build up before touching a plate and shorting it out?
The deep cycle batt for my trolling motor is a Delco, purchased 21 years ago. I only use it 2-3 times a year, but it always charges up and does what I need it to do.
Come to think of it, the Delco in my truck is original also, and it's 11 years old.
I've had a couple deep cycle batteries croak. Main reason I believe on one of them is I did not put it on a maintenance charger while not in use. The other one from TSC just croaked after one summer. The original battery in my camper still works, but it is nearing the end for that one.
I'll probably use Concord batteries in my backup system. 24VDC and the same brand name inverter you have, just a different model. The Watchdog PLC (A-B:1766-L32BXB) is 24VDC. This handles all the switching and control functions should the power go out, or other failure. This will also run a routine to properly cycle the batteries at periodic intervals, meaning, it will take the system off AC power and work the batteries a bit. According to Concord, you will want to do that to maintain battery health, even tho they have a non-use shelf life of 10 years.
Yeah, I know, too complicated and not necessary! Hey, can't a guy have fun anymore
Future installment will be, how to run a 3 phase motor from 24VDC
Probably should cough up the cash for a PMAC (Permanent Magnet AC) motor tho. An induction motor will drain the batteries a bit quicker.
I wish they had PMAC motors for submersible well pumps! They probably will some time in the future.
Good info LS!
Been a while since investigating batteries and can't remember all the acronyms, but I kinda like the Concord rig's.
LS, is it true that deep cycle batteries have more space between the bottom of the plates and the bottom of the battery so that more material can build up before touching a plate and shorting it out?
That I don't know. Probably manufacturer specific, depending on chosen chemistry. By all rights, not much should accumulate down there on a well designed battery.
Different but the same, has anybody used the Lester chargers?
Haven't heard of that brand until you posted. I have a wheeled Schumaker rig that works pretty decent, but it is nothing compared to the rig my Dad had when I was a kid. Heck, I use to weld with it!
Yep, Dad pulled the plug-in disconnects from the garage to the welders so I wouldn't burn up all his Certanium 770 rod at 35 bucks/lb back in the 70's.
Taught Dad a lessen tho, and that his battery charger would burn the rod quite well
We won't discuss the lesson I learned the day he found out!
That's the brand of charger Concord/Lifeline recommends for it's batteries.
http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/accessories.php Probably gonna at least take six decent sized batteries to run the rig for 24 hours. Still need to crunch some numbers when I get all the components amp draws listed in a doc. Still need to select the compressors for the air lifts and such.
Nice thing about the Concord batteries is they have a really enhanced cycle life.
O.k. now I'm really embarrassed.
I finally got around to popping the cell caps off of one of the batteries and it's fluid level were really, really, low. I didn't bother to think about checking the fluid level for the two years they were on the inverter. As it was in a dark corner of the basement and it never dawned on me. On top of that I had previously put it on a charger with the low fluid level.
I filled one up with distilled water and put it on the charger. Any chance it will bounce back or is it possible I damaged it?
Will I know if I've done damage to it even if it charges back up?
It's probably toast and won't even charge back up and if it does it won't hold long..
That's what I'm thinking. Live and learn I guess.
Don't throw them out quite yet. I'll bring my tester over.....
Cecil,
If you have an issue with them taking a charge on deep cycle, now that the fluid level has been corrected, try charging them on a "standard" charge of 10 amps for 5-10 minutes. This may break any build up the plates have on them from low fluid level. It has worked for me a time or two.
Don't throw them out quite yet. I'll bring my tester over.....
Scott,
No point in driving all the way over here just to test the batteries.
Cecil,
If you have an issue with them taking a charge on deep cycle, now that the fluid level has been corrected, try charging them on a "standard" charge of 10 amps for 5-10 minutes. This may break any build up the plates have on them from low fluid level. It has worked for me a time or two.
I'll keep that in mind.
Not giving up yet but I'm skeptical I didn't ruin them.
Cecil do your very best to leave the inverter disconnected from your battery bank. Even if it is a true sign wave inverter. The inverter just hooked up to you bank will pull them below your 50% and the chemical reaction that allows you to hold a charge will flip. At this point you need to add acid to the batterys to bring them back to life.
You can try to cook them but if the acid is now to weak change it out and your golden.
Inverters if left hooked up will draw batterys flat.
Cheers Don.
Don,
I believe this is the inverter Cecil has:
APS750 If not, it is very similar. It is intended to be connected to the batteries at all times.
Let me know what you or anyone else thinks about these. I plan on getting a hard wired version of this brand for my back up system. This is the one I am looking at:
APS2424 This will only get wired into the watchdog system. With two of these, properly setup, I can run a 3 phase motor. Probably won't do that tho.
We've done the acid thing and it worked, but we're going way back in time
Don,
Yeah that is the inverter i have. What's the point of battery back up if you can't connect the batteries? This unit is supposed to keep the battery charged and automatically goes on a charge mode once AC power is back on after the DC has been used.
I didn't know it was an UPS inverter. Guess it all lands on your battery's now.
I think Cecil tied an old battery with a new one and the old one ate the new one up.
Let him verify that tho!
I kinda like the Tripp-Lite rig's, and will probably void the warranty once I hook into it
I think Cecil tied an old battery with a new one and the old one ate the new one up.
Let him verify that tho!
I kinda like the Tripp-Lite rig's, and will probably void the warranty once I hook into it
Nope I knew better than that Phil. Both new batteries. The problem was I was stupid and didn't bother to keep them topped off.
Someone did that, but I can't remember where. Had an old battery on an inverter and it wasn't kicking out enough so he bought a new battery of different make and AH and hooked it up with the old. Everyone told him not to do that, but he did.
Must have been on another forum. It was a few years ago.
Best way to kill a new battery, besides shotgun, is to parallel it with an old battery.
Cecil, no problem driving over there. I need to bring the trailer and get cages anyway.
I'll remember to bring whatever I have to test batteries.
Good point about the acid. I'll call NAPA and see if they have any. I don't know where else around here other than an auto parts store to get sulphuric acid.
Hooking multi-cell batteries directly in parallel, such as car batteries, deep-discharge, etc., is not healthy for the batteries. If one begins to develop a weak cell, it will continually pull current from the good battery, eventually damaging it also.
Here is a good explanation:
Battery Isolation This is done all the time in RVs, boats, golf carts, etc. The diodes are regularly available at boat or RV service centers.
Good info Ken.
Been playing around with the battery backup stuff today, and with all the BS I want to mess with, it looks like I'll need six of these:
Lifeline GPL-8DL Closest place to get them is toward esshups place in MISHAWAKA, Indiana.
I'll bet they ain't cheap, and I don't even want to physically pick one up!
I'll call tomorrow and get prices, then we can all have sticker shock at the same time
Mishawaka is 1/2 hr to 40 min from here. You can stop there when you come down here on the 19th.
I'll get prices first. Some of the non-official online places are asking 650-700 bucks each
Then you have to order them. I am sure the markup is pretty high at these places.
See what happens!
Holy Cow! 825 bucks at one place online. ON SALE!!!
Then you gotta figure in shipping probably. It's not like shipping a pound of feathers!
Isn't muriatic acid sulphuric acid?
Not sure I want to mess them. The one I topped off with distilled water and put on the charger won't charge. I need something dependable in case of a power outage. If it works now but not later that's no good.
Sulfuric acid is much stronger and an oxidizer. Muriatic acid is kinda a wimp. Then you have blotter acid, which makes watching fireworks a bit more interesting
Then you gotta figure in shipping probably. It's not like shipping a pound of feathers!
Best price so far is 629.00 each and shipping is 19.00 each with a minimum quantity of two batteries. These have to go truck freight, and shipped to a facility with a loading dock or fork lift.
There is a place in Texas that is 590.00 each, but I didn't get shipping prices from them.
The two places in Indiana. One stocks them at 720.22 each. The other one who is a distributor, who never sold one yet said he had another brand that is a replacement for the Lifeline batteries. The sales pitch is that Harley Davidson uses these. I asked who the manufacturer was and suddenly he had a speech impediment. 3 times I asked, and got enough out to find out they are made in India. Looked up the specs on the battery, and I would need several more, and probably have to replace them every couple of years. Not gonna happen! He never did give me a price tho.
Muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid, not sulferic. It can be quite potent with high concentrations, but it vents very easily as gas. Sulferic acid sticks around. Of course it is my dad who is the chemist and is really into batteries, not I.
BTW there is a rechargeable battery type based on iron that is a "forever" battery. Typically used in remote locations like mountain tops and such. A low energy density, but are rated in some cases for over 100 years of constant cycle.
http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/
Muriatic acid is hydrochloric acid, not sulferic. It can be quite potent with high concentrations, but it vents very easily as gas. Sulferic acid sticks around. Of course it is my dad who is the chemist and is really into batteries, not I.
BTW there is a rechargeable battery type based on iron that is a "forever" battery. Typically used in remote locations like mountain tops and such. A low energy density, but are rated in some cases for over 100 years of constant cycle.
http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/ Liquidsquid,
Didn't see a price for those on the site. Any idea ballpark what they are?
Like anything else, it depends on capacity, etc. First site I found:
http://ironedison.com/nickel-iron-ni-fe-battery
Glass mat is the battery you want if you do not want to check on it or touch it again.
Cheers Don.
Glass mat is the battery you want if you do not want to check on it or touch it again.
Cheers Don.
I've got a sealed deep cycle battery on the inverter right now. It will have to do until I can get other batteries. I will be topping them off this time!
If you guys read the information on the link above about the pros and cons of each battery type, but most notably the "effective" capacity of each before damage occurs. The equivalent LeadAcid to achieve the same Watt Hour safe operating range should be about the same. The cost over time may be a wash, or cheaper for the nickel-iron batteries. That is if you intend to use then for the next 20 years or so, and monitor the levels in them regularly.
They do appear to be the better battery for those locations that you can only get to very rarely, say a camp or a remote installation of a solar aerator or pump.
Pricy for the chemistry though, by all rights these should be cheap! No expensive materials inside at all. Probably expensive due to low sales volumes.
